wich is the greatest clubteam of all time ?

Discussion in 'Soccer History' started by tony-soprano37, Jan 19, 2013.

  1. tony-soprano37

    Dec 5, 2008
    Club:
    AFC Ajax
    Nat'l Team:
    England
    i am not so sure about that. the difference isn't that big. pep's barca is/was more consistent. but when both had to face eachother in thir absolute peak form i think cruyff's dreamteam (romario/laudrup/stoichkov) would beat pep's (xavi/iniesta/messi)
     
  2. Rana catesbeiana

    Mar 11, 2008
    Club:
    FC Barcelona
    I dunno. I mean, if they faced each other at their peak, it's anyone's guess who'd win. But when a team has a cv like Pep's Barca has, it's pretty much a case where you either include it to the list of the greatest club teams or admit your list isn't that serious (or your criteria are weird).
     
  3. JamesBH11

    JamesBH11 Member+

    Sep 17, 2004
    I kinda agree with your point of ManU late 90's. But both Inter 60's and Bayern mid 70's were the deserved ones. What about Santos early 60s? They indeed beat the Benfica 60's of your list by a big margin (intercontinental cup 62)

    I felt you should include 10 teams and Santos 60s, Inter 60's, Bayern mid 70 deserved in that list!
    Also Barca at present are more "popular" , more impressive and won more trophies than their elder in 90's!

    I could not vote if the list is not complete - unfair IMO
     
  4. tony-soprano37

    Dec 5, 2008
    Club:
    AFC Ajax
    Nat'l Team:
    England
    not by my criteria. if you red them. i said the greatest clubteams of all time. not only by achievements but also by domination and the way they played or changed the game.
    example 1. both ajax and bayern won 3 european cups in the 70ies. but the reason why ajax is in this list and bayern not is that ajax totally almost always dominated their opponents. and played a revolutinairy kind of football.
    bayern did not dominate and also had quit some luck (for example the final against leeds).
    example 2. inter milan won it 2 times in the 60ies same as ac milan and benfica. but of those 3 clubs only benfica deserves it.
    inter won one time with luck agaisnt benfica with 1-0 (who had an injured goalkeeper and substitutes weren't allowed so defender germano had to step in goal)
    benfica playing 5 finals in 8 years and the other 3 years reaching the semifinal. thats way more dominating in the 60ies then ac milan or inter milan.

    a case for santos 60ies can be made but not for bayern 70ies or inter milan 60ies. becasue if inter is included why not ac milan of the 60ies who also won it 3 times.

    besides like i said already its not only about european domination also their domestic competition achievements count.
     
  5. msioux75

    msioux75 Member+

    Jan 8, 2006
    Lima, Peru
    If you're refering the Milan champions of '63 and '69 and also the runner-up of '58.
    In fact those teams had a diferent core of players among them. There are five years between each one!!
     
  6. Pipiolo

    Pipiolo Member+

    Jul 19, 2008
    Nat'l Team:
    Argentina
    I would rank the top as follows:

    River Plate of the 40s (Moreno, Pedernera, Labruna, Lostau)
    Real Madrid of the 60s (DiStefano, Puskas, Gento, Kopa)
    AC Milan of the 80s (Van Basten, Gullit, Maldini, Baresi, Rikjaard)
    Barcelona of present (Messi, Iniesta, Xavi, Ronaldinho)
    Independiente of the 70s (Bochini, Bertoni, Raimondo, Larrosa)
    Ajax of the 70s (Cruyff, Neeskens, Krol, Rep)
    Santos of the 60s (Pele, Coutinho, Pepe, Gilmar)
    Liverpool of the 70s (Dalglish, Neal, Keegan, Souness)
    Penarol of the 60s (Spencer, Joya, Rocha, Mazurkewicz)
    Boca Juniors of the 00s (Riquelme, Tevez, Palermo, Cordoba)
    Bayern Munich of the 70s (Beckenbauer, Muller, Netzer, Maier)
    Real Madrid of the 90s (Raul, Redondo, Figo, Zidane)
     
  7. JamesBH11

    JamesBH11 Member+

    Sep 17, 2004
    OK I got your points better now ... we'll think about those teams over.. (makingrevolution and impact to football)
     
  8. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    How is Independiente ahead of Ajax? In 1972 they kicked Cruyff out of the game and even without Cruyff and a crippled Cruyff in the second leg, Ajax won both games rather easily. They won 0:1 away from home, when Cruyff was kicked out of the game and 3:0 in their own stadium with a crippled Cruyff.

    In terms of absolute player quality (relative to contemporary peers), neglecting things like 'innovation', aesthetic and context, I believe this Barcelona team should be #1. Unfortunately.
     
    Rana catesbeiana repped this.
  9. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    I would not count them among the best. As even Italy fan Krokko (now gone) said, Milan maybe fixed both matches.

    Outside world knows most about the 1973 fix because an English side was involved (and because of dominance of English language) but probably more encounters were fishy including those 1963 and 1969 finals.

    This connects to part above. World knows about this one because an English side was involved and disadvantaged and English is the dominant language in the (football) world. The same mechanism happens when a big side plays a small side, then the injustices against the big side reach collective consciousness (like Müller offside goal in 1974 final while wikipedia does not mention that Müller injured a few Dutch players beforehand).

    1976 final was also controversial with a lot of complaints of the St Etienne chairman. A few things caused grief (St Etienne missed a few players due to suspensions and injury of Rocheteau) but the winning goal was in particular lamented. It was objected that the free kick was taken while the ref was still busy with organizing the wall, did not give a signal, and the dive leading to the FK was given easily. English newspaper 'The Sun' called them "parasites" and Gazzetta dello Sport said "sandbags on breakwater [...] a stolen victory".
    However, the captain of St Etienne said "the one who wins has always right" and complimented them with the victory.
     
  10. Pipiolo

    Pipiolo Member+

    Jul 19, 2008
    Nat'l Team:
    Argentina
    I put them ahead based on their longevity, also the matches against Ajax did not feature Bochini, Independiente's all-time greatest player by far, who was still in the youth ranks back then. Nevertheless, Cruyff's Ajax can be put ahead of them, I have no qualms with that.
     
  11. tony-soprano37

    Dec 5, 2008
    Club:
    AFC Ajax
    Nat'l Team:
    England
    pipiolo everybody has a right to his own opinion but do not talk bullshit please. out of the 100 persons 99 would rank ajax ahead of independiente. based on achievements, pure talent-level of the players quality. achievementwise. and also the impact they made on the publice byt the revolutionairy way they played also the way they mostly dominated their opponents.
     
  12. Pipiolo

    Pipiolo Member+

    Jul 19, 2008
    Nat'l Team:
    Argentina
    Independiente's achievements are very much comparable to Ajax's, and that dynasty had greater longevitiy even if it's probably because the Ajax stars left to other clubs. They also dominated their opponents most times. In the one aspect they obviously do not match up well is the revolutionary aspect, which is why I mention that it's fine to place Ajax ahead of Independiente.
     
  13. tony-soprano37

    Dec 5, 2008
    Club:
    AFC Ajax
    Nat'l Team:
    England
    also the pure quality of the players ?? indenpendiente had some good players (like bertoni, bochini etc etc) but ajax had some great players.
    vasovic and later blankenburg maybe underrated nowadays but vasovic already played european finals in the 60ies one of the best sweepers ever.
    cruyff ranks amongst the 5 best ever players. no one from that period of indenpendiente does.
    krol ranks in the top 5 of leftbacks and top 10 of sweepers.
    neeskens ranks amongst the best ever box to box midfielders the world has ever seen.
    haan gets a bit underrated nowadays but talk about the total footballer. haan could play almost anywhere on the pitch midfield, defense, forward wich he prroved throughout his career. after leaving ajax he became a keymember of the golden anderlecht wich played several european cupwinenrs cup finals in the mid to late 70ies.
    so you see the pure class of the players ajax also easily outranks indepediente.
     
  14. schwuppe

    schwuppe Member+

    Sep 17, 2009
    Club:
    FC Kryvbas Kryvyi Rih
    When the ******** was that supposed dynasty and who did they dominate?

    Ajax '66 - '73

    National
    215-30-23

    '66: 1st 24-4-2
    '67: 1st 26-4-4
    '68: 1st 27-4-3
    '69: 2nd 25-4-5
    '70: 1st 27-6-1
    '71: 2nd 26-5-3
    '72: 1st 30-3-1
    '73: 1st 30-0-4

    Continental
    33-7-12

    '67: QF 3-2-1
    '68: 1st Round 0-1-1
    '69: Final 5-1-3
    '70: SF 6-0-4 (Fairs Cup)
    '71: Win 6-1-2
    '72: Win 7-2-0
    '73: Win 6-0-1

    Independiente '70 -'78

    National
    208-127-117

    M Metropolitano, N Nacional, F Round

    '70M: 1st 12-3-5
    '70N: 4th 9-3-8 didn't advance
    '71M: 1st 20-10-6
    '71N: 1st 10-4-0
    '72M: 11th 12-11-11 didn't advance
    '72N: 7th 4-5-4 didn't advance
    '73M: 4th 15-8-9
    '73N: 8th 6-4-5 didn't advance
    '74M: 5th 7-6-5 didn't advance
    '74N: 2nd 10-5-3 advanced
    '74F: 5th 3-0-4
    '75M: 13th 12-9-17 didn't advance
    '75N: 3rd 6-7-3 didn't advance
    '76M: 3rd 9-10-3 advance
    '76F: 10th 3-0-8
    '76N: 3rd 8-5-3
    '77M: 2nd 23-15-6
    '77N: 1st 10-1-3 advanced
    '77F: Won 1-3-0
    '78M: 8th 15-13-12
    '78N: 1st 9-3-2 advanced
    '78F: Won 4-2-0

    Continental
    33-20-6

    '72: Win 7-4-1
    '73: Win 4-5-1
    '74: Win 6-3-1
    '75: Win 6-3-0
    '76: SF 4-2-1
    '78: Group 6-3-2
     
  15. Pipiolo

    Pipiolo Member+

    Jul 19, 2008
    Nat'l Team:
    Argentina
    schwuppe, be serious now, you are comparing the Dutch league into the 60s with the Argentine into the 70s. Before Ajax, there was no relevant historical side from the Netherlands, whereas Independiente had to climb over titans River Plate, Boca Juniors, Racing and Estudiantes de la Plata. Having said that, fair advantage to Ajax at the continental level (assuming the second number is losses).

    While overall you are a good poster, you tend to throw the toys off the pram and also rely too much on stats without a proper context, as explicated above.
     
  16. lanman

    lanman BigSoccer Supporter

    Aug 30, 2002
    You're right, it's not as if a Dutch side had won the European Cup before Ajax.
     
  17. tony-soprano37

    Dec 5, 2008
    Club:
    AFC Ajax
    Nat'l Team:
    England
    thats not what he ment i think he ment that ajax already had some european successes in the 60'ies. beating liverpool (easily) and benfica. and reachign the final in 1969
    where as the succes of feyenoord in 1970 came out of the sky.
     
  18. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    France Football had for a long time also an vote for best club in Europe, next to the Ballon d'Or. Ajax won it four times: in 1969, 1971, 1972, 1973. Remarkable is that in some years it was with a small margin, in 1973 they had a very narrow margin on number second Bayern Munich despite the fact that Ajax won comfortably in a head-to-head confrontation (European Cup) with a unfit Cruyff in first leg and no Cruyff at all in second leg.
    Ajax was also third in the vote in 1967 by the way, they must have made an impression. In 1968 sixth (behind Milan, Benfica, Manchester United, Celtic, St Etienne but ahead of Real Madrid).

    Ajax was the first club in the professional era to win the domestic championship three times. They lost it in 1969, arguably because they missed Cruyff for five games (3 wins, 1 draw and 1 loss during his absence), Keizer for seven games and - maybe most crucially- excellent marker Suurbier for 11 games. Also iron lungs Bennie Muller, the midfielder, was out for 10 games and missed. Feyenoord won championship with three points advantage.

    In 1971 they lost it in a direct confrontation with Feyenoord. At the start of the 70/71 season they missed Cruyff for the first 10 games (he played in one but fell out after 10 minutes). They were sixth in the table at his return, after 10 rounds. Ajax gradually climbed in the table and at the penultimate round a game against Feyenoord decided about the title. Keizer scored the opening goal, assist Cruijff. But Keizer injured himself and fell out after 20 minutes. Some others on both sides had minor issues. Feyenoord turned around the match and won the game with 1:3 - and the title too. Ajax also lost their meaningless final round game and Feyenoord won the title with four points advantage.

    They won the championship in all other seasons between 1966 and 1973. More generally, until the Bosman ruling came along and the satellite revolution changed football, few clubs have produced so many good football players between 1965 and 1995.
     
  19. tony-soprano37

    Dec 5, 2008
    Club:
    AFC Ajax
    Nat'l Team:
    England
    very true. its incredible the amount of worldclass players that cam from ajax within these 30 years.
    in fairness i think there is no other club that produced such a constant level of quality players year in year out.
    furthermore all worldclass players that did not come from their youthsystem but still played for them said that playing at ajax in their system is the best thing for a young player to happen in terms of their development as a player.
    micheal laudrup finished his career at ajax and said that his biggest mistake was going to italy at a young age if could have done it again he first would have gone to ajax. zlatan ibrahimovic also stated that his years at ajax learned him the most.
     
  20. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    It was a very big mistake to contract Adidas as sponsor. The first thing the sponsor demanded was that Bayern Munich could peek in the youth system. And now they are producing their own storm troopers like Kroos, Schweinsteiger :thumbsdown:

    Another big mistake was to list the club at the exchange.

    From a footballing aspect, yes. He also said some less pleasant things about the club ;)
     
  21. RoyOfTheRovers

    Jul 24, 2009
    Club:
    Newcastle United FC
    Nat'l Team:
    England




    [I would also add that the current Barca team are still building their legacy...]
     
  22. JamesBH11

    JamesBH11 Member+

    Sep 17, 2004
    They are already in the list mate! (note Barca 08-12)
     
  23. Alexander88

    Alexander88 Member

    Jan 26, 2013
    Club:
    AC Milan
    1) Milan of Sacchi
    2)Barcellona of Guardiola
    3)Ajax
     

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