Why Young Yanks shouldn't go to the premiership part 2

yeah you're right.
You're clearly not an expert.

He only played about 80 minutes in the whole tournament and you for some reason single him out as someone who "sucks" .His international record is 3 goals in 5 games .He scored on his international debut against holland .That makes him a bad player?? haha not likely.

 

5 games, 3 goals. I think he only started 2 of them, It says it all really. If he was American your view of him would be a bit different I think.

 

Can we have a show of hands from the Americans in this thread who can actually form an opinion about English football without resorting to stereotypes?

Next person to use the 'kick and rush' cliche will be ridiculed at my leisure.

 

oh, ZING! Is that "British wit"? Fairly low-brow word turns, very playgroundish.

A: he's been capped 9 times.
B: other than the fantastic goal against Holland, he scored in friendlies against Paraguay (WOW! Murphy even got one in that game, against no Chillavert) and Cameroon (super WOW!).

you really keep up on things, dont you?
unlike the rest of the world, just because a player wants to leave MLS doesnt mean he's handed a transfer because the league trys to get too much out of their players. The players want to leave but since the league holds their contracts and not the teams, they are selling. So, untill you read up on and get some honest knowledge about american players, SHUT UP.

and your point is...you're comparing apples to oranges by bringing up O'Brien; he's at a club with a better developing system than 95% of english clubs, so Europe is less important. man, you are really grasping for any bit to try and wax on.

hahahaha! how sad... maybe you have a problem with selective reading or your ego prevents certain words from being understood, but the original question, oh ye expert, is "Name a young foriegn player who came to a non-europe EPL team and gotten better".
And Anelka went to Madrid, stunk it up, went back to FRANCE and is now with City, a D1 at best team. wow, great development. i dont know if you really had a point with that, so maybe it was proven by your inane logic.

 

Well, if he were american and I touted his record you'd probably say "well, one of those goals was against a Chilavert-less Paraguay and another was a casual friendly against a half-sided Cameroon team, silly yanks...call us when you play some real competition"

 

Sinner,

The top level English Nat players play in the Top end of the Premiership table?

When was the last time you won the World Cup? How was your World Cup showing in 94?

I love EPL, don't get me wrong, but doorknobs like yourself tend to color my image of the English. Of course our players are not as developed as in England, however we are quickly floating up to par in that particular arena.

There have been offers for Beasley, Mathis, and McBride as someone earlier has said. However, given the popularity of football/soccer in the US after the World Cup, our league is inflating thier prices to keep them at home.

We have US players in the EPL. And there will be more in the future. If you need to insult those few American fans who do "get your game" I can only assume you are scared of a future where American players will be on the same level as the English. Where a friendly or WC match will not be a "sure thing".

Relax. We all love the same game, and Americans joining the World Stage as a Football/Soccer "power" benefits the sport.

 

Darius vassell is a young player who is still developing .His 3 goals in afew appearances is better than alot of other players from so-called bigger clubs .Why the obsession with trying to trash vassell?? He had done OK for us and had a decent start .

Has any top side put any money on the table to buy a yank??? answer== no.
have any yanks move abroad?? answer = no
Surely the league wouldn't be so greedy and deny yanks the chance to join all these top clubs that allegedly want yank players?? If they wont let players go then its your own fault.

So europe is less important now is it??
I thought you said it was vital in your previous posts .Looks like you change your mind more often then your underwear .
A player needs to experience top level euro football because you can only go so far in the dutch league.
As for ajax youth system..... they have been known to have a good youth acacemy but the recent dutch national teams haven't featured any ajax players .their acadamy has had abit of a dry patch in terms of producing top players .

We dont traditionally sign youngsters from outside of europe .We dont really go to places like africa or south america in the same way that other leagues do.... Non-Ec players only started arriving in the last 2 years.


Dont waste my time with your drivel.
You aint got a clue .
This debate is pointless because no one is really interested in signing young yanks .
Who cares?? send them to albania for all I care.

 

Italy has won the WC 3 times, twice on foreign soil and have the 3rd best all time WC record second only to Germany and Brazil. They have only once failed to qualify for the WC. How many times did England qualify.
Also in this WC, England never got the opportunity to get screwed by S Korea favoring refs. So take your retarted comparisons somewhere else.

 

well not since 66.
Italians aint won since 82.
Spain have never won it.
Holland have never won it..
are you gonna bash them as well???
only a small select group have won the world cup in recent times (brazil and france)

 

Only thing that was retarded would appear to be the above analysis as it totally missed Prenn's point.

 

i started out with him as a comparison of what makes him average and what makes people like Owen and Hargraves better than average: if in the EPL, its because of Europe; if not in the EPL its because your not in the EPL.

i guess B.Munich, Boro, Fulham, Preston and Ajax arnt top enough

how is it my fault that our joke league is dillusional about player value and league growth? yes, MLS has flat out turned down requests for DMB, Mathis, McBride and Wolff against the players wishes to try and "grow the league" by keeping the talent close to home.

reading comprehension must really be lacking in England. the CRUX of this argument is that the only thing that makes english players in the EPL better is Europe, otherwise they'd be even less developed. How young are you? where's your memory? go back and read up.

due to finance troubles, in large part, as well as bringing in international young'ns to feature; meanwhile, PSV has picked up the task of growing the local talent...go on...

And there are so many english players playing outside the UK, arent there.

 

That's what got a few folks knickers in a bunch - although in many ways the truth was hard enough to swallow. Tact never really was Sinner's strong suit.

Anyway, I had to pipe in that some are commenting on Vassell with England and clearly have no idea what they're on about regarding him, his role, England's system and even the system Vassell plays at Villa. He's a terrific player and will only get better... I don't see where some folks are comin' off saying that he "sucked"... it only shows a lack of knowledge and inability to analyze England's WC matches and his role offsetting Owen + the strategies that were formed against the England strikers.

Anyway, its' up to the players to go there, and it's up to the clubs to sign them if they fit in. Peole won't just get a player because he's from wherever. Same goes for Brazilians - with club football it's about money, and results. In the last premiership season, dare I saw the only AMerican player that had a strong impact on his club was Brad Friedel. Moore was rubbish and out of favor, Reyna was solid but Sundarland were struggling, and he couldn't turn that around, nor would it be fair to assume that he could from the beginning. Keller was good when he played however was so dramatic that he even annoyed me.

In the future perhaps more AMericans will go abroad... depending on the financial situations of the clubs/leagues go. But then again, who knows what really would have happened if there wasn't the situtaion we have now? Perhaps we'd be looking at the same scenario with many rumours and none coming to fruition.

 

retarted???LOL

why are you are poking your nose in this debate??

I dont have any sympathy for all this alleged talk of getting "screwed" by refs .
We've been stitched up by refs loads of times down the years and I dont see any one giving us sympathy.remember mexico 86?? no you#'re probably not old enough.
take your sob story somewhere else.

 

Let's look at the recent WC winners:

2002 Brazil
1998 France
1994 Brazil
1990 Germany
1986 Argentina

Now make two lists:

List #1:

How many of the players on those teams were playing in the English top flight when their team won the WC, or how many players on those teams developed in the English top flight?

List #2:

How many players on those teams were playing in leagues other than their domestic leagues when their team won the WC, or how many players on those teams developed in leagues other than their domestic leagues?

I have a guess (it's just a hunch), that list #2 is longer (maybe a lot longer!) than list #1. I also tend to believe that this disparity tells us something about how well different leagues develop world class talent.

 

I think you missed Wanderer's point. Wander is not arguing that current Yanks have a wealth of choices between EPL, Serie A, Primera, Bundesliga, etc. Wander's making a comparative statement about the relative strengths of these leagues in developing talent -- he's saying IF a Yank had a choice among these leagues, he should not go to EPL. To say that Yanks don't have a choice doesn't tell us anything about the relative strengths of these leagues, and therefore doesn't address Wanderer's argument at all.

 

Sure, it's a cliche and a gross generalization. But how would you describe it?

Please don't simply resort to other cliches about how there aren't "styles" anymore. Obviously it's a generalization-- not something that holds true for every single team-- it just needs to be relatively more true for English teams than other teams.

And when you look at it on that level, and accept that, yeah, while some English teams play a tighter passing game and dribble more, overall, the EPL IS different from other leagues. Does anyone honestly disagree? For alot of English supporters, these differences are even a source of pride (the physicality, the speed, etc).

I understand y'all being tired of being labeled "boot n scoot" footballers because English football has changed so much from the longball style. I'm sure you're tired of the label because so many people see it as a synonym for "no skill" (which it isn't in this day and age: the dead-on accurate long crosses from Becks have almost no relation to punt and hope school of football, given how targeted they are).

OK, fine. But accept that English football does still look different and that some people won't ever
prefer that style. Alot of it will be just a matter of taste, but, in addition to upsides for this difference, there might also be downsides, one of which might have to do with developing skills not used as often as other leagues.

 

Well how do i say this?? Frances 98 world cup winners and euro 2000 winners were mostly based in England .Henry ,petit ,viera ,etc....
Is that a shock to you??

As for the other teams.
We only stated importing foriegners into the league in big numbers post world cup 94.
Brazil won WC 2002 and but we have never really bought players from outsde of the EC becasue of work permit issues.Not ag reat deal of brazilians have ever played in our league.
thats more to do with the strict rules than footbal reasons.

How many players on those teams were playing in leagues other than their domestic leagues when their team won the WC, or how many players on those teams developed in leagues other than their domestic leagues?

[/B][/QUOTE]

I dont know ,why dont you work it out for yourself??
Brazils 2002 squad were based all over the place.

 

Re: Re: Why Young Yanks shouldn't go to the premiership part 2

I'm going on international emprical evidence here and why there is such a falling off of young talent when you get past the top tier clubs, that's all. Vassell is young and has a ton of promise, given.

 

I dont know ,why dont you work it out for yourself??
Brazils 2002 squad were based all over the place. [/B][/QUOTE]

I think that pretty much summarizes football today. What some fans have to understand is that the international game is really secondary to the club game... IMO at least. It's a business. Brasil's squad was in all of the major leagues... (except England but look now... Kleberson, Gilberto Silva, and Juninho returned). But players hailed from Brasil, Italy, Spain, Germany... They aren't just there for the "culture and development". Those players are there for the huge wage, incentives, status it brings and because they're the best for the job - i.e., they help the club attain the result that they need, whether it be qualification to Europe, the $$ incentive or whatever.

As for development, players can develop in England and become tremendous players at that. The key is making it onto the pitch and having something to contribute to the cause without disrupting the foundation/system that's in place. After all, there's more to football than just "development"... too much of that gets you nowhere but on a shyte bus to take on Boston United...

 

Have you actually read this thread and paid any attention whatsoever to what has been said??

If yanks have a wealth of chances to go to serie A ,la liga ,etc.. why have no transfers taken place??
How many yanks are in La liga and serie A?? answer == none
How many yanks are in germany?? answer == very few
Why dont you give me an example of a yank having to make the choice between serie A ,the premiership ,germany and la liga???
has that ever happened??? no it hasn;t.


I have already addressed the points about player development .If you bothered to read the thread you will already have seen my previous points.
We have restructered our whole youth development system and any claims that we dont know how to develop talent is a myth..
have any of you yank imbeciles ever seen the current england youth teams in action???
are you aware that our national team has an average age of only 22 ??
our youth development is excellent in our clubs.
You aint seen the young players that we've got .
None of you have the faintest idea what you're talking about....



If you yanks think you';re too good for us and then f'ck off somewhere else .who cares?? not us thats for sure.

 

Re: Re: Re: Why Young Yanks shouldn't go to the premiership part 2

Understood. Vassell is still developing of course and to be honest, he wasn't on too too many fans radars at all until 2000-2001. HIstorically, Villa's had a few characters at striker (Collymore, Dublin... Baloban...) but he did break through to fit into a role Erickson had him on.

 

Wouldn't you expect list #2 to be rather longer given that you're comparing a single league against all other leagues in which there were foreign players who won a World Cup?

Anyway, the whole thing is rather dubious given that players most often move to countries that (i) have most money floating around or (ii) have a cultural affinity with their own country (e.g. Brasilians tend to end up on the Iberian peninsular). Additionally, how do you explain away the plethora of foreign World Cup winners who've played or play in Spain (supposedly an indication of the developmental skills of the Spanish League) versus the World Cup record of the Spanish team itself - which is far far worse than England's (and thus in the eyes of some of the poster's on this thread an indication of the poor developmental skills of said league)?

 

I think it's great having American players playing in England because then we can all have a good laugh at the self-righteous claptrap that frequents this board whenever they end up on the bench or playing for Fulham reserves.

 

Re: Re: Re: Re: Why Young Yanks shouldn't go to the premiership part 2

This brings up another interesting question:

Does England have too much focus on Owen?
How can a young player, like Vassell, develop knowing that he's just there to take pressure off another player?
How do the old(er) players like Fowler, Sheringham and Cole feel about that?
Without Heskey, where would england and owen really be in terms of striking talent? I mean, if the weight were to fall on Phillips and Fowler...well, lets just say thank god this is speculation...

 

i haven't read all this thread only a little bit so here is my view.

Firstly premiership players are reward well in england due to the richness of our league however we don't pay the top wages because we don't have to get players to take pay cuts in order for the club to be able to play in the league.

secondly the premiership is the strongest league in the world even tho only 3 teams can win the prem english teams have done very well in europe over the last few yrs. even tho no english team have won it since 99 we are one of the most consistant nations. if u join an english u will improve massivly or if u can't u will fail. No other league has the pace of the prem - improvement of stamina, also no one has the phyiscal side which england has - euros and others moan about it like made when they come here but it does help thier strength.

england is a good player for players to develop - they can learn from the best players in the world and they should develop.

However americans don't do well in england no american has done well ( bar kasey keller but he rules) - maybe its somefink to do with mentality, its just one of those things like the fact that players from norway/sweden/denmark do well in england.

american players would be better to go to a club in a weak league - i.e. france/holland because unless they got skillz they wont make it into the first team of the bigger leagues.