Why Young Yanks shouldn't go to the premiership part 2

Discussion in 'Premier League: News and Analysis' started by The Wanderer, Aug 2, 2002.

  1. The Wanderer

    The Wanderer New Member

    Sep 3, 1999
    Gareth Southgate from 4-4-2:

    "We've got talented people, but I don't think the style of the Premiership serves us well on the international stage. Whilst our league is exciting to watch, you have to adjust your style when you play international football and that handicaps us. Other nations are more comfortable on the ball whereas over the years English fans have come to expect our game to be played at a very high pace, where concentration on passing and keeping the ball is secondary."

    Okay, now an actual Englishmen chimes in with his $.02 cents. This after I posted a link to Ronaldo quotes before the crash where he said that 'going to the Premiership doesn't make you a better player'.

    But I don't know anything about football now do I Superdave since I never played at the highest level?

    'The Wanderer: Vindicated again'.

    Kudos to dark knight for finding the article
  2. Prenn

    Prenn Member

    Apr 14, 2000
    Bolton Wanderers FC
    Nat'l Team:
    You're going to lose again, this isn't good enough.

    Was Southgate interviewed just after the world cup by any chance?

    Just what league would you want to send your young players to?


    None of these leagues had national teams finishing ahead of England, only 1 got as far.

    Tell ya what... send them all to Germany.

    Nice try but not good enough.
  3. mik_smith

    mik_smith New Member

    Feb 5, 2001
    A) National Team is not the same as the Domestic League. Spain and Italy, in particular, are worried that their leagues do TOO GOOD a job training players -- players who happen to be South American, Eastern European, African, or French.

    B) The British leagues do not place the same premium on close ball control as other top countries/leagues. No doubt about this. The players who can dribble are by and large imports -- Joe Cole being one exception who proves the rule.

    C) Lots of players from countries where they play slow, non-physical football can benefit from playing in England. The young French players who've come to England (Pires, Henry, Anelka, Petit) have adjusted very well and it's helped their games. But they already had bags of skill when they got to England.

    D) Given that Americans tend to be more "Northern" than "Southern" in their approach (ie, the emphasis is on running, team play, and not dribbling too much), I would say that the average "Young American" player would improve more in the long run if he could find a league that placed emphasis on developing ball control and creativity -- but where they won't be so outclassed that they will never get a game.

    E) Having said that, I'd say France is a place where more Americans should be looking to go. The league feature high technical skill (e.g., Senegal), is fairly well-supported, and high-profile enough that you can get paid and get noticed by bigger clubs after a few years. The Dutch league is fairly similar, and obviously a place where Americans have gone, but I'm surprised more players haven't tried France.
  4. sinner78

    sinner78 BigSoccer Supporter

    Nov 7, 2001
    You're singing the same tune again??
    You never answered any of my points in the last thread.

    How many of the yank team from the world cup team have moved to Europe since the end of the world cup??
    answer== none

    team's aren't exactly lining up to buy your players.
    I dont see anyone from spain or italy fighting over any yank players .I dont see any top euro scouts fighting for your signatures...
    You're telling them not to go to the premiership even though we haven't even made an offers for your players .
    No one else is making offers by the looks of it.
    You make it sound as if you can pick and choose the best teams in europe.LOL
    Get real and face reality.
    Your players aren't as much in demand as you like to think.
    Good luck in finding non-existant offers from other nations .
  5. Excape Goat

    Excape Goat Member+

    Mar 18, 1999
    Real Madrid
  6. sinner78

    sinner78 BigSoccer Supporter

    Nov 7, 2001
    i know that hold some kind of personal grudge england but I dont see your point ,weirdo.

    The work permit system only applies to non_EC players .that stops us getting swamped with a tidal-wave of cheap imports .Only the best (like veron ,etc..) wll get work permits .Juninho wont have any problems getting a permit.
  7. Prenn

    Prenn Member

    Apr 14, 2000
    Bolton Wanderers FC
    Nat'l Team:
    As SRM said Juninho will get a work permit.
  8. kpaulson

    kpaulson New Member

    Jun 16, 2000
    Washington DC
    though you've got to admit that the song and dance is a little silly... deny him first, hold a hearing, then reconsider....

    As for young yanks going to england, we've been over this before. england might not be the best place for them to develop-- despite how cosmopolitan some teams are, english football still looks different from much of international football.

    but as sinner said, we yanks don't exactly have lots of choices. If you can play first team only in MLS or the premiership, the gap in talent between the two leagues would probably more than compensate any perceived developmental shortcomings and I'd send any of our players to West Ham... The only time it gets harder is when you go down divisions: Huddersfield Town plays some awfully ugly football sometimes...
  9. nobody

    nobody Member+

    Jun 20, 2000
    Beggars can't be choosers...

    Besides, wouldn't you rather be paid in pounds than francs or guilders?
  10. Martin Fischer

    Martin Fischer Member+

    Feb 23, 1999
    Kampala. Uganda
    DC United
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Why? Isn't there this new thing called euros?
  11. benine

    benine New Member

    Jul 22, 2002
    for career ($$$$)=EPL GOOD
    for development=EPL BAD

    Also, guys, check out the England roster; the players that play the best, esp at the WC, are those that see extensive Europe action and that's why all but a handfull of the players on the WC roster were those from euro-competing clubs. Vassell sucked because crash-and-shoot striking doesnt cut it at the international level but gets you buy in the EPL. #1 reason why Phillips SHOULDNT make the squad. Really, I see the point of this quote perfectly; I mean, is Hargraves really just that much more gifted or is it that he's had a better developmental situation than if he were in England? I thought for a large part that Reyna kind of, er, stunk in spots and played a very sloppy physical game at times and thats in large part to not playing Europe this last year having left Rangers. The EPL is great for our keepers, since there is such a premium on high-shot volume, but developing a really good midfielder (Donovan, DMB) or a non-endall striker (McBride, Wolff) on a non-europe EPL team is suicide (and, er, none of those players could make a euro-bound EPL sqaud, sorry, its true).

    but that said, the lights dont get much brighter than the EPL, esp. to what the US players are exposed to.
    And Armass could sproute into Rio-jr in the priemership.
  12. dcc134

    dcc134 Member+

    Liverpool FC
    May 15, 2000
    Hummelstown, PA
    Liverpool FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I'd still prefer pounds.

    I have no problem with young yanks going to the EPL.

    Players develop by being exposed to different styles and systems. That is why England has struggled over the years, none of their players get play outside of the EPL.
  13. kpaulson

    kpaulson New Member

    Jun 16, 2000
    Washington DC
    Don't you think that's a chicken or the egg sort of argument? All the good players go to the best clubs (ie the ones likely to play in Europe...)... And all the good players are most likely to be called up for the national team...
  14. The Wanderer

    The Wanderer New Member

    Sep 3, 1999
    If the money's good, sure they should go. But as someone else said, look at Hargraves. Not developed in the EPL. I'm curious to see what McManaman would have to say about all this too since he's been on the continent for awhile now.

    I never said EPL clubs were lining up to buy our players. Nor did I say we had a whole bunch of players capable of playing at that level. I'm saying that if young yanks really want to get better, they should find another league to play in if they have the option.

    The premise is that if you're taught kick and chase high energy style as a youth, you should look for a league where the style is the opposite in order to become a more rounded player.

    Sure Germany won't cut it, they did after all make the finals of the World Cup. They also had a team in the Champion's League final. How many World Cups have they won compared to England again? Please. All you prove is that penis envy exists as much in Europe as it does in the rest of the world.

    The players have chimed in, coaches around the world have given their thoughts. I know you all and the American Anglophiles will still disagree. It's okay---keep living in denial. At least WC '06 will take place in Germany where you have a better chance at playing your up tempo direct 'Premiership' football.

    Bruce Arena-"Going to England didn't suddenly make Joe-Max a better player." This was after he scored 5 goals in his first 7 games with Everton.
  15. The Wanderer

    The Wanderer New Member

    Sep 3, 1999
    Well said.
  16. benine

    benine New Member

    Jul 22, 2002

    Not really. When I think of more proof to back this up, look at the sea-saw performances of people like Dyer or Sinclair in connection with the everyotheryear nature of Europe that they've played. When the injury bug hit, why did young players like Dunn, Christie or Garreth Barry get overlooked but lesser players from Europe bound clubs got the selection (i'm looking at you, Ash Cole, Wes Brown).
  17. dcc134

    dcc134 Member+

    Liverpool FC
    May 15, 2000
    Hummelstown, PA
    Liverpool FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    There isn't a better manager in the world for developing young talent than Houllier, who manages in the EPL. Wenger isn't far behind, who also manages in the EPL.

    You simply can't paint the entire EPL with a single brush. Some clubs are good for your development, some most likely wouldn't be.

    Either a player has it or they don't. It is about getting an opportunity to play consistently which controls their development.

    Arguing continuely Americans shouldn't go the EPL is simply an ego building exercise, IMHO.
  18. sinner78

    sinner78 BigSoccer Supporter

    Nov 7, 2001
    ooh what an expert.
    Most national teams base their squads around players from the best teams .we get a bulk of our team from man utd ,arsenal ,liverpool ,etc...
    Practically the entire squad was from top sides.

    vassell was actually one of the better players agianst sweden .but after that game we altered our system and he didn't get much playing time.
    Any suggestion that he "sucked" is laughable and ill-informed.playing for Villa does him no harm.

    [quote[tfor a large part that Reyna kind of, er, stunk in spots and played a very sloppy physical game at times and thats in large part to not playing Europe this last year having left Rangers.[/quote]

    reyna actually played in europe this season.
    His final game for rangers was against paris SG in the uefa cup .That just about sums up your level of knowledge.Any poor play can hardly be blamed on playing for sunderland for acouple of months.He only played about 7 games for them .LOL

    You've got no need to worry because no teams have made any bids for your players .You can stay at home in the "mighty" MLS.
    The claim that it would be suicide to send players here is comical .
    Nobody has made any bids for your players so it aint even worth debating where to send them.
  19. Boro_lad

    Boro_lad New Member

    1) Juninho has signed and his work permit appeal has been accepted. As expected. The only reason he didnt get 1 first time isthe principals of the DOE to ensure teams dont just bring in non EU players to just sit on the bench or just linger in the reserves.

    2)The prem is a good league to develop in..Just look at people like Micheal owen, Beckham etc.

    3) U can have the chance to play at the home of football down by the riverside.
    (and get a chicken parmo after the game)
  20. eric515

    eric515 Member

    May 8, 2002
    Atlanta, GA
    Aston Villa FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States

    From all reports I have seen, our players are in very high demand, the clubs just don't have the money to back up there desire for that player. These European clubs have been offering unacceptable monetary amounts for the players we have.

    Add to that the fact that our league is still in season, I don't think you will see any Yanks go to Europe until after the playoffs (or their team's season) end.
  21. sinner78

    sinner78 BigSoccer Supporter

    Nov 7, 2001
    really is that why we have struggled??

    Is that why spain haven't done well?? they aint won anything since 64 and I dont see anyone questioning them.
    We haven't done as well as we should because we play too many games and go into tournaments with physically burnout players .

    Players from the top leagues (spain ,england and italy) dont move abroad because they can get big money at home .Players from other countries move abroad for the money .
    None of the italian national team plays abroad.
    Its all about Money .
  22. OBartleby

    OBartleby New Member

    Aug 28, 2001
    Kansas City, MO
    You know, Monk, I actually agree with you: Our national team players aren't in demand, although the exact reasons for this are debatable. The problem is that you have as much tact as Roy Keane on Quaaludes and a fifth of absynth....
  23. benine

    benine New Member

    Jul 22, 2002

    well, if you'd read the rest of my post, dipshit, it was a comment on why those players play better and are looked apon more. and i sure did claim to be an expert, didnt I?

    i'll say it again: he sucked; one shoot not on target, three fouls and got knocked all over the place. great striking. yeah, playing at villa didnt hurt him at all (snore...cole pt2).

    yeah, and in seven games playing mid-bottom table primership ball as a warm up he sunk from being a controler to being an overly physicall, non-finesse player. it would have been better for him to still be at Rangers playing dump and chase than to have to grind out a Sunderland season. Yeah, he saw action in UEFA, but all that polish was warn off by the time he left Sunderland for the cup.

    well, mr. expert, that about sums up the extent of your knoweldge, doesnt it? MLS has received bids for DMB, McBride and Mathis from EPL and D.1 clubs as well as continent clubs. Friedel didnt just show up at Blackburn, did he? ticktock. You've made my case, idiot:
    American players arent talented enough to crack into the top tier EPL clubs; the top tier EPL clubs are where the majority of the English side is picked from; the top talent wants to play for/gets better because of those top teams playing in Europe; if your not seeing Europe time, youre screwed as an english player as far as making the nats. So YES, it would be suicide to send a player to England to develop. Name a young foriegn player who came to a non-europe EPL team and gotten better; Duff is the only name coming to my mind. Come on, expert.
  24. sinner78

    sinner78 BigSoccer Supporter

    Nov 7, 2001
    Where are you going to send them if no one makes offers for them??
    You think a youngster would turn down the chance to move to a side like Man utd?? a side with a renowned youth development system.The players they produce are excellent .The same can be said about sides like Liverpool ,west ham ,etc...

    Where are you gonna send them ???
    Where are the offers???

    You dont know the teachings of youth football in england .Dont insult us and say the players are deliberately taught to play kick and rush .
    The current crop of players we;ve got are just as good as anyone elses players .Our side that went to the world cup had the average age of 22.
    We have restructed our whole system and we're only just beginning to see the results .
    You only have to look at the standard of our youth teams .The stuff they play is top notch and their skills are just as good as anyone elses.
    To say they are taught just to hoof the ball up the pitch is absolute garbage.Have you seen our current uder-16 team play or our under-19's??

    no didnt think so....

    Who said anything about germany??
    how many yanks are in germany? about 2 or 3??LOL

    How many world cups have germany won compared to spain?? Is the spanish league bad because spain haven;t done so well in the world cup??
    I thought La liga was regarded as the best league.
    using your "expert" logic you shouldn't send players to spain because spain aint won for a while.
    yeah thats it.... dont send players to league that hasn;t produced a winning national team for a while ..
    ooops hangs on a second ...99% of teams haven't produced a winning national team for a while..
    ooh looks like you'll have to stay at home.

    Have you ever watching the premiership??
    if you think sides like man utd ,liverpool ,arsenal ,etc.. play direct than you aint watched them .
    Which teams play direct??? name them .

    joe max moore is a bench warmer for everton.
    How many game sdid he play last year??
    about 5 or 6???

    So overall you just rehashed the same old crap from the last thread.
    Your logic is laughable .
    You've got no need to worry about sending players over here because we aint interested and neither is anybody else by the looks of it.LOL
  25. Newman

    Newman New Member

    Jul 24, 2002
    Madison, WI
    I would like to see young Americans take their first step overseas to clubs in France and Holland. They seem to do a remarkable job of developing skillfull play. Playing time isn't quite as difficult to get either. The competition level didn't seem to hurt the Senegalese. Once a player hits their early 20's, I'm less concerned, as long as they play. If John O'Brien moved to an EPL team now, he wouldn't suddenly become a worse player.

    I think the EPL vs. other major leagues is a matter of preferred style. England did well at the Cup-particularly without Gerrard. Goalkeeping, supposedly a historic strength, let them down in a game with the eventual champs. No reason to bury the EPL. I don't much care for the 500 MPH style of play-but for some players it could be a great environment. If Mathis did well in the EPL, you'd never hear a complaint about his work-rate again.

    MLS does have players Europe wants. MLS knows that these players have a lot more visibility in America than ever before, and are pricing them accordingly. With lots of good Euro players on free transfers (Come on down to Crazy Cecchi Gori's for rock bottom rates on Fiorentina players...) and MLS in season, you're not likely to see a flood of Americans. For the long-term health of US soccer though, it's the 16-17 year olds going over to play in youth systems, who don't get a lot of press, that will really lift us come 2010. And yes, some are in England (2 or 3 with Arsenal I think).

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