Why US soccer is underachieving

Discussion in 'Soccer in the USA' started by persianfootball, Sep 18, 2016.

  1. HailtotheKing

    HailtotheKing Member+

    San Antonio FC
    United States
    Dec 1, 2008
    TEXAS
    Club:
    San Antonio Scorpions FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    How'd pro/rel work for the Netherlands and Chile in making this world cup? Also, plenty of more pro/rel countries not making the world cup than countries without pro/rel.

    Pro/Rel, literally, has nothing to do with what happened here.

    Also, Panama and Honduras (and in a more limited fashion Costa Rica) have all publically attributed the increase of their quality at the NT level is due to players playing in MLS.
     
  2. Elninho

    Elninho Member+

    Sacramento Republic FC
    United States
    Oct 30, 2000
    Sacramento, CA
    Club:
    Los Angeles Galaxy
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    ...not to mention that, if you're going to blame a loss to Trinidad & Tobago on the lack of pro/rel: T&T doesn't have pro/rel either.
     
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  3. M

    M Member+

    Feb 18, 2000
    Via Ventisette
    Given T&T finished bottom of the hex, not sure how this is meant to help your argument.

    But, yeh, trying to tie the failure of the US to lack of pro/rel is pretty tenuous.
     
  4. R. Carrillo

    R. Carrillo Member

    Aug 15, 2013
    Long Island, NY
    Club:
    Manchester United FC
    Nat'l Team:
    Mexico
    1. The other concacaf teams are canabalizing MLS. MLS is importing players that were developed in other countries with pro /rel and without pay to play. MLS imports the players because they are better by and large then the homegrown pay to play talent and more available (MLS salaries are more palatable to these players).

    2. Pay to play is an unnecessary filter that is cutting out players. Instead of just requiring potential, prospective players must have potential and financial wherewithal and access to good clubs. I know there are some scholarships and MLS Academies are free (starting at 12 or 14, late in the process) but this is a drop in the bucket.

    Pay to play is the primary means of paying for coaching because clubs lack incentive to develop players. In a pro/rel environment, clubs would be incentivized to develop players in order to sell them to other teams trying to climb the ladder or use the players to climb the ladder themselves. MLS clubs are not numerous enough to cover the US market entirely and are run as one entity, so don't competitively sell or buy players against each other. They act cooperatively.

    At this point I don't see how someone can say that pro/rel is not a better system. Its just that there is controversy as to whether US has enough interest to implement it on the required scale (is the team in IOWA gonna cultivate Iowa kids in order to beat the Nebraska club and get out of 4th division or are both gonna just barely keep the lights on cause no one will show up). Also, given that we have MLS, how can we integrate pro rel against the single entity's wishes. The MLS system works well to preserve the financial value of the franchises, which is what it is designed to do and is the first priority for MLS owners.
     
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  5. Elninho

    Elninho Member+

    Sacramento Republic FC
    United States
    Oct 30, 2000
    Sacramento, CA
    Club:
    Los Angeles Galaxy
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Big problem with that argument: most of those players MLS is importing from Central America are players developed by the perennial title contenders in their leagues, and have never experienced a promotion chase or a relegation fight.
     
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  6. Yoshou

    Yoshou Fan of the CCL Champ

    May 12, 2009
    Seattle
    Club:
    Seattle Sounders
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I'm not sure I agree with the premise that the CONCACAF players are better. In many cases, the driving factor is primarily that they are less expensive than comparable US players.
     
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  7. Yoshou

    Yoshou Fan of the CCL Champ

    May 12, 2009
    Seattle
    Club:
    Seattle Sounders
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I'm not sure I agree with the premise that the CONCACAF players are better. In many cases, the driving factor is primarily that they are less expensive than comparable US players.
     
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  8. R. Carrillo

    R. Carrillo Member

    Aug 15, 2013
    Long Island, NY
    Club:
    Manchester United FC
    Nat'l Team:
    Mexico

    The perennial title contender has pressure to stay up and win the title (Saprissa for instance has more pressure then, lets say LA Galaxy for Revolution). Even if you disagree, the central american perennial title contender definitely is incentivized to scour thier area for talent, develop that talent, and pass it on. They are doing the bulk of the development work, instead of pay to play FC managed by daddy coach. Who do we think would do a better job in terms of finding and polishing diamonds in the rough? Saprissa actively scouts, Pay to Play FC charges parents for the right to try out.
     
  9. Elninho

    Elninho Member+

    Sacramento Republic FC
    United States
    Oct 30, 2000
    Sacramento, CA
    Club:
    Los Angeles Galaxy
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    What does pro/rel have to do with that?

    At this point, MLS academies are free. It took until 2012 for them to expand to the full range of age groups; before that they only went down to U-16. The results are only just starting to show with the U-17 national team, because those are the very first players to enter MLS academies at U-12 level.
     
  10. R. Carrillo

    R. Carrillo Member

    Aug 15, 2013
    Long Island, NY
    Club:
    Manchester United FC
    Nat'l Team:
    Mexico
    There are 22 MLS clubs across this beautiful land of ours, I think its 22-24 spots per age group. Only starts at age 12. The free academy they offer is a drop in the bucket.

    In my example Saprissa has to scout and train youth because if they don't Upstart FC is going to do it and get to the first division and sell the player for $$. MLS teams simply don't have to deal with that competitive pressure. The draft and the homegrown zones all stem from the franchise model. in pro rel these anti competitive protections don't exist.

    The empirical evidence is there, pro-rel works for 95% of the world, and the rest is USA Australia and Trinidad and Tobago (maybe North Korea I don't know I'm sure there are others in micronesia).

    Look I'm not some pro rel zealot. Its one thing to say, I don't think US is interested enough to support pro-rel. That could be true (as evidenced by the fact that absent big soccer posters USA mainstream public doesn't care about the World Cup qualification). Or perhaps say, pro rel is not compatible with MLS, which is at this point well entrenched and would have to be bought out (I think this is the biggest sticking point, MLS moved early into the space, and set up shop before soccer grew, so they hold the keys). Those are valid points for discussion. But philosophically to say pro rel is not better than franchise model for soccer. That is not debatable. Thats just a weird blind position. Is that like a defense of MLS or NBA/NFL? America itself is pro rel. Businesses get relegated all the time.
     
  11. +PL+

    +PL+ Member+

    Jun 22, 2015
    Club:
    Manchester United FC
    To answer the original question of this thread in one sentence.

    Because MLS sucks.

    More elaborated answer. We don't have a football culture here in US yet.
     
  12. bigredfutbol

    bigredfutbol Moderator
    Staff Member

    Sep 5, 2000
    Woodbridge, VA
    Club:
    DC United
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I, too, remember how much better soccer was in this country before MLS came along and ruined it.
     
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  13. nicklaino

    nicklaino Member+

    Feb 14, 2012
    Brooklyn, NY
    Club:
    Manchester United FC
    China’s men’s soccer team sucks doesn’t it?

    There are things done in Europe with good teams you just don’t see in the MLS. But some of those teams in Europe you don’t see them either.

    You do see that culture in areas here in the more ethnic areas.

    Everyone has a reason why we got knocked out of the tournament. I certainly have them as well. But the fact is even if we got in the WC tournament I don’t think we would have done well in that either. So now we can start right now and develope the players we have for the next World Cup and we have some pretty good player through out youth teams.

    I am wondering who would be named the coach. I know Ramos wants it. But I would choose a good coach who was not born here. I can’t forget when Ramos was a player he was to into his own game to help the new players on the old Metrostars team. Donadoni on the other hand went out of his way to help the new players on the team.
     
  14. MonagHusker

    MonagHusker Member

    Liverpool FC
    United States
    Feb 25, 2016
    Omaha, Nebraska
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    This is interesting as I was unaware. I would be curious to learn more about how it was in the past. Although in my 40s, i never participated or really paid attention to the sport (outside of my own kids that played and video games) until the last couple years.

    How was it different?
     
  15. The411

    The411 Member

    Oct 12, 2013
    When do you expect this to happen exactly? Asking for a friend.
     
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  16. NaBUru38

    NaBUru38 Member+

    Mar 8, 2016
    Las Canteras, Uruguay
    Club:
    Club Nacional de Football
    That analysis is quite correct, but misses a key element: colleges.

    "The U.S. men’s national basketball team does not systematically exclude an enormous swath of the population"

    The US team selects NBA players. NBA teams select college players. College teams select high school players. So all teams of each level want to get the best players.

    But college teams aren't very interested in having the best soccer players. So the won't go find the best high school players. So MLS teams don't select the best college soccer players, because they aren't that good.

    Of course, in most countries the best young soccer players are in clubs. No matter the division or region, bigger clubs will go get th best players they can get.

    But the MLS doesn't have the reach to find the best high school or club players, and they aren't interested in that.
     
  17. NaBUru38

    NaBUru38 Member+

    Mar 8, 2016
    Las Canteras, Uruguay
    Club:
    Club Nacional de Football
    That's not strictly correct. If a small club finds good players, bigger teams will buy them.

    Clubs don't care about relegation, but about winning, so they can sell players to bigger clubs. That's enough incentive.
     
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  18. bigredfutbol

    bigredfutbol Moderator
    Staff Member

    Sep 5, 2000
    Woodbridge, VA
    Club:
    DC United
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I hope you realize I was being sarcastic.

    The context for that sarcasm--I think MLS is far from perfect but there are some people who talk so much about how the league is "holding back" soccer in this country one might think those people believe the sport hasn't seen any benefit from having a financially stable first division league at all.

    Sorry if you don't get the sarcasm, you're relatively new to the site and some of our conversations have, shall we say, deep roots. :)
     
  19. R. Carrillo

    R. Carrillo Member

    Aug 15, 2013
    Long Island, NY
    Club:
    Manchester United FC
    Nat'l Team:
    Mexico
    You mean in pro-rel enviornments right. In MLS incentive to win is not as strong since there is no relegation downside to losing. Also, I think MLS owns the players right, not the clubs? Certainly when they sell abroad MLS is the seller.
     
  20. MonagHusker

    MonagHusker Member

    Liverpool FC
    United States
    Feb 25, 2016
    Omaha, Nebraska
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Ok..I was going to ask because I didn't read much of the prior discussion. I thought it might have been,but a lot of people repped it so I totally misread that!
     
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  21. Yoshou

    Yoshou Fan of the CCL Champ

    May 12, 2009
    Seattle
    Club:
    Seattle Sounders
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Because players don’t lose their jobs when they don’t win... Owners don’t lose any revenue at all because fans keep showing up and sponsors keep signing contracts. Riiight.

    It isn’t the lack of relegation that devalues wins, its the league champion being determined by playoffs. While getting the Supporter Shield is nice, the most important thing for teams/players is getting into the playoffs.. This is particularly true given MLS’s playoff format (Home/Away series with away goal rule) that further devalues position and may actually favor the lower positioned team as they will, invariably, be going into the final game if the series with the lead.

    MLS certainly plays a role, but, for the most part, the negotiations are done by the teams. MLS just has the final signoff
     
  22. Paul Berry

    Paul Berry Member+

    Notts County and NYCFC
    United States
    Apr 18, 2015
    Nr Kingston NY
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    England didn't qualify for the 1994 World Cup and it's been downhill for the Premier League ever since.
     
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  23. Olo2317

    Olo2317 Member

    Jun 1, 2014
    Club:
    CA River Plate
    Nat'l Team:
    Argentina
    get skillfull latinos and fast black kids playing
     
  24. barroldinho

    barroldinho Member+

    Man Utd and LA Galaxy
    England
    Aug 13, 2007
    US/UK dual citizen in HB, CA
    Club:
    Manchester United FC
    Nat'l Team:
    England
    I'll just be lazy and quote my own blog:

     

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