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Discussion in 'USA Men' started by Ghost, Sep 10, 2007.
Well, i think that's a pretty self-explanatory topic.
Well, I'm not so happy. But so many seemed enthralled by the defeat today I've decided to let it ride until tomorrow. By then maybe a cooler look at what transpired won't strike many as gratuitous pessimism. Until monday, then.
I don't think anyone is happy, but most people were happy with the way the team played and hung with Brazil all game. We also got hosed on some calls and we were playing the best team in the world, so the 4-2 loss doesn't hurt so bad. If we play this good against most other teams in the world then we will win. The one complaint I do have is the crosses. No one did a good job at crossing the ball into the box during live play and set pieces.
I thought Brasil eased to a 4-2 victory. Notice how when we scored they turned it up a notch and came back to get a goal.
This wasn't a competitive match so I'm glad we didn't go for the bunker and counter but in an open match with something on the line Brasil would have annihilated us.
I'm still optimistic though. Replace Saul Smith with Rico Clark, Wolff with Dempsey, and start Altidore and we would have a better chance.
Still need to add another center back.
But to specifically answer the thread question, the team showed a little more spark and competence at the attacking end of things compared to South America.
I am happy with the positive attitude displayed by our Nats. I am happy we had better efforts on goal today. Michael Bradley's well timed tackles make me smile.
I liked not seeing Eddie Johnson starting until I realized that meant Josh Wolff was starting. I was pleased to hear Timmy's finger wasn't suspected to be broken..what's not to be happy with?
This was a slightly more entertaining version of the team we have seen so far this year in a friendly against a world power with a culture that lives the game.
I don't think anyone expects us to win with lesser talent at every field position regardless of game location.
I am also happy about how the team played today. I think had the correct calls been made, that one would have ended 3-3.
All I have to say is the Robinho call in the box was a dive and he deserved the yellow he got. He jumped before contact was made because he knew he had no angle and had to flop...he jumped INTO contact with gooch and so I give him no call, a deserved yellow, and 0 respect on that attempt.
Also Boca handballed it into the goal.
Crap noncall on Wolff.
Crap call for the ronaldinho free kick.
Right before the corner that Lucio scored on, one of our defenders (i forget who) completely shanked a clearance giving them that corner.
Gooch OG could have been prevented.
Howard is the best keeper in the entire world.
The ref sucked, yup, but ultimately we made dumb mistakes defensively. You take back the ref-gifted goals and factor in the calls that the ref should have made, and it turns out to be 3-2 to brazil. Legit goals were Gooch OG (our own mistake), Dempsey's goal, Lucio's goal (our own mistake shanking a clearance and giving up that corner kick), and the PK goal (stupid mistake by Bradley). BS goals were Boca's Handball shot, and Ronaldinho's free kick cause it wasn't a foul in the first place. We should have had a PK for Wolff... so 3-2 would be the just score by refs...point is we still lose - which means our mistakes outweighed our positives. We need work. Gooch needs work.
I don't believe that it is so much happiness as it is optimism. We actually belonged on the field with a true soccer elite and weren't completely dismantled.
So no, not happiness, just hope that this will provide a spark for bigger and better things.
Because some of us don't live in fairy tale land? This isn't a sports movie...
Brazil is the best team in the world, with players that win CL and La Liga trophies.
Yanks are just not plying their trade in the top leagues with regularity. We're psyched if we have a guy playing in CL group stages. We're progressing, rather quickly I might add, but we're not there yet.
We had two shockingly bad decisions go against us (I just slow-moed em, Wolff was clearly dragged down, Boca didn't foul Alves), and an unlucky OG (Robinho's dive would not be called by most officials).
When you're rather unlucky, you're not beating Brazil.
Fact, for the first time I can remember, we didn't look completely out-classed. We competed, we did not bunker/counter, but actually created good scoring chances and converted some. We were positive.
We did this with Josh Wolff playing forward. Dempsey should be a withdrawn forward, which I think he's shown is his best position, but he needs a solid, target-type partner. If Wolff is even on our 2010 or big qualifiers I'm going to need a lot more beer.
Bradley had a great game, except for the PK. He made so many strong, smart tackles and did some nice things on the ball. Pearce was really good. There was a reason most of their attacks were coming from the left. I think Bornstein needs to take a seat for awhile.
I wasn't happy we lost, but I was proud of my boys.
We need Altidore in there, bad. He and Dempsey need to start developing an understanding. I don't mind allowing him to play out the MLS season, it's nice, but he's the best young prospect we've ever had at the CF position, and his league and U20 form has earned him a call-up. Especially if Davies, Zizzo, and Hill are getting caps.
Damnit Donovan needs to stop taking FKs. I'm so conflicted on him. I just don't think he and Dempsey should both start, and right now Dempsey does withdrawn FW job better. Donovan's service as a RW is just not good enough if we're gonna take the next step. He did good things, defended well, but we just need a better crosser of the ball.
Convey needs to regain club-form before he sees another game. Sweden he was atrocious. His performance today may have been worse. He single-handedly obliterated 2 great chances with horrible passes.
Feilhaber off to move DMB centrally and Convey on the left?
Still, good game, entertaining, we were unlucky but outclassed.
We're also closer than we've EVER been to taking that next step. This game was something to be proud of.
I agree the officiating was bad. But we also made enough mistakes that warranted a loss.
1.) I'm not sure how much more obvious it is that we need to find another partner for Boca in the middle. Gooch just isn't getting it done, but he has tremendous potential if he can learn to read the game better. I don't understand why we can't experiment a little in the middle of the field here. Why not try Demerit with Boca? Where was Conrad? I would hope that if the Revs had not played today, Parkhurst would have been called in.
2.) We really, REALLY need a center attacking midfielder. I'm not sure if I'm the only person who noticed, but there were so many times when the ball was loose at the top of the box and NO ONE was anywhere near it. I really don't fault our guys for this, I think it's purely tactical. Benny and Michael clearly were told to stay back and not get forward here. The two defensive midfielder thing has to change; the only question, obviously, is who to put at CAM. Landon is our most skilled player, and I'd like to see him here even though it's probably not his best position. Feilhaber is intriguing. We need Adu to mature so badly now it isn't funny. I just truly think this would add a huge boost to our attack.
3.) Michael Bradley isn't there yet. I think this kid is good, and at times is spectacular, but his fouling worries me. Yes, we need a "bruising" force in the middle of the field, but his play sometimes goes overboard. I'm not worried one bit, though, as he is so incredibly young and will only improve. Holding midfielder may be the USA's deepest position.
1.) Our wingbacks played well. Cherundolo is pure class. I know he loves his club, but I am shocked that a bigger club hasn't come calling. His over-lapping runs are very good, and he is faster than most think. If Stevie wasn't in the game today, the scoreline would have been different.
Heath Pearce, in my opinion, made a claim today for that LB position. He loves to go forward, and this compliments Beas's style PERFECTLY. Beas is a fantastic offensive player, but his defensive side is very overlooked. I do not get worried when Heath slashed forward with Beas on the left mid, since Beas can almost always get back and cover. This pairing on the left is something to watch. Let's please remember, folks, that these two are still quite young.
2.) Tim Howard. Good Lord, Timmy. This man is amazing. Howard will probably not be an Everton man forever playing like this. He truly is world-class, perhaps the only world-class player in the USMNT current pool. I love his distribution, too.
3.) Clint Dempsey is on fire. His form is the best right now for any American player. That man knows how to finish.
4.) We showed fight today. The Brazilians clearly showed us respect too. They are a classy, classy team, and it was a pleasure to play them. However, we didn't give them much respect, and fought to the end. You've gotta love that from 11 guys who all will DEFINITELY be in our pool for WC 2010.
Overall, we took alot away from the game, which is why I'm happy with it. I'm not sure if Bob is the right man for the job anymore, though. I'm thrilled we pushed Brazil a bit, but I am worried he is too set in his ways. Why not try SOMEONE at CAM? We've now lost 5 games in a row with our box midfield set; something must change. I just think we have fantastic potential if we can make a few changes. We really need Cooper, Rolfe, and Altidore healthy, though.
To make the changes that you requested we need to fire the coach first. Not gonna happen. Brazil is famous for half assing friendlies. We lost by two goals and are pretty happy.
Welcome back to nineties. The difference is that we are much deeper but the first eleven (at least those that we get on the field) aren't any better. Few more years in this direction and we will recall 2002 as a golden era of American soccer.
We played a better match against Sweden.
Dolo needs to be removed for a consistent right back. Boca has no speed, but can get goals, so it looks like Gooch goes to the bench and bring in Demerit. Pearce looks like a man out there and should replace Bornstein.
I thought we played poorly, came out star struck, but manged to put a little bit of fire into a Brazilian team clearly looking forward to some groupy action later in the evening.
Brazil is vulnerable. Their back four are athletic but can be beat by organized team.
that's because Donovan keeps taking most of the sets. Watch how every...single....cross he makes is TOO LOW.
I casually noticed this a long time ago, but only recently it began to bother me. So, I decided to keep the score of how many of his crosses off set pieces are too low. It's pretty close to 100%.
Watch in awe as all of his balls come in at chest height straight into a defender.
agreed. I thought USA played very well against sweden.
Conceding 4 goals on your home soil can't possibly be a good anything, no matter how you look at it. If a team like England conceded 4 on their own soil, you can expect a lot of people to lose their jobs.
we've already proven that we can stay with the big boys.
pretty soon this optimism for bigger and better things will fade fast if we keep losing these games
I'm not happy with the loss, but happy at the chances we opened up. I also like the fact that the Brazilian coach really thinks the US boys have improved, that says a lot about our quality of soccer. I've read a few articles today and the players feel the same way...they take the loss, but like the respect US soccer has after the game....
I'm not happy with this at all...
However I can see why people might think this somewhat of a moral victory. We didn't get blown out... eventhough the score was 4-2... we were in that game up until the stoppage time PK... Brazil may have scored 4, but one was an own goal, and one was a PK... and the difference in the game was a nice free kick by Ronaldinho... Think of all the teams around the world who can say they've been beat as the result of that...
We did manage to score two goals, breaking up a streak of goalless games... and scoring 2 for the first time since beating Mexico in the Gold Cup. Each goal to take a lead on the #1 ranked team, which won the Gold Cup we bottomed out of (scoring 2 goals in 3 games).
However, I'm not all that pleased... There were many things which came from this match which emerged as not so much aberations... but patterns of weakness in Bradley's US squad; (1) Playing players out of position, and forcing them into spots by name, and not ability, (2) a heavy reliance on the potential to be good in the future, but not those players who have already arrived, (3) a lack of creative build-up from central mid. which leaves us often over-matched by better talented teams to control the flow of the game, and (4) sloppy defensive mistakes costing us dearly.
Somehow, he fails to see the void this leaves... and continually, at the end of each poorly played game... in which we've struggled to score goals, most of which have come off of dead ball situations... claims that the players are getting better as a team, and are coming around... (despite now losing 5 straight matches to non-CONCACRAP opponents, after struggling to three hard-fought narrow 2-1 wins in the end of the Gold Cup)...
Admittedly the talent of the opposition has increased... so the win/loss thing can't be the only judgement here... However, what can be said, is that the increase in talent level, has exposed the unit which Bradley used successfully in meaningless friendlies against C squads, and the low-level CONCACRAP opponents... and struggled against those top tier CONCACRAP opponents, to those nations which have the ability to take advantage of the defects we show, and that unit has downright failed against decent opposition, the likes we will have to be playing against come the World Cup...
It may still be too early to tell... but to me it seems Bradley (or Lurch as I will begin calling him... ) will have us coasting through CONCACRAP to yet another World Cup embarrassment.
There is nothing indicated thus far, which shows me he is doing anything to bring us to the next level. The only thing which to me could possibly vindicate Bradley's poorly disguised version of the Sampson 3-6-1 and the Arena 4-1-3-1-1 (i think that's what they settled on calling it... essentially a poorly organized 4-5-1)... Would be if somehow Altidore ends up living up to all the over-hype he has gotten, and become the next Thierry Henry (who it might be added struggled dearly in WC2002)
Now to me... the 3-6-1, 4-1-3-1-1, and Bradleys 4-4-2 which looks more like a 4-6-0... All show the same traits... The lack of confidence that the US can match up against top class opposition... Thus the desire to overload the midfield... often times at the expense of the forward position, since the US lacks a true World Class finisher...
Now I see a problem with that... If the US lacks a World Class finisher... why use less of them? Despite not being the reincarnation of Romario and Bebeto... Any two member forward combination you could come up with, will be able to finish better than the respective midfielders who they are being replaced for... Also, if youre adding extra midfielders for the inability to match-up against top notch opponents... the inability to match-up is on the defensive aspects... so add two defensive midfielders... not a holding mid, not a central mid, a true defensive mid...
Instead, I don't share that outlook... I have full confidence, that a US MNT which plays a true US style of soccer... which is open and fluid, and ATTACKING... that we will match up with many of the better teams in the World... losing surely to the very top nations... but still getting results... That's the way we did it, when Sampson first took over, that's the way we did it when Arena first took over, that's the way did it in WC02... and that's what we've gone away from each time the pressure has been put on...
I would love to see a coach who puts faith in the US's ability to produce players to produce... I would love to see the US equivalent of the Klinsmann/Lowe connection... and take a poorly organized defensive squad... and put an attack-minded mentality into them...
I agree that we should be overloading mid, as I believe that's where most games are won and lost... However, I don't think that should come at the expense of a forward. We need two forwards to score... We don't have Henry, Van Nistelrooij, Ronaldo, etc. We, as many other teams worldwide, need to play a duo up top... one with a better creative/physical ability, and one with a speedier straight opportunistic pouching/finishing ability...
I also think that mid should be overloaded with attacking/aggressive players... not to play defensively, but to keep a constant pressure on our opponents... of course in doing so, we run the risk of giving up goals... but after 4-1 against argentina, 3-1 against Paraguay, and 4-2 against Brazil... it's rather obvious, we run that risk anyway...
We also shouldn't be supplanting true flank players... for defenders, who then leave two under-talented central backs isolated against top notch opposition... If Cherundolo, the right back, is having to make up for the lack of ability on the right flank position... PLAY HIM AS THE RIGHT FLANK... and replace the void on defense, with a true defender... If not... play a true right flank player... We have plenty of them...
Go with the 3-5-2... it overloads mid, but provides those true attackers... and playing 3 central defenders will also load the center of defense... which wont leave the defense handicapped when a player goes foward, vacating their resposibilities....
Striker: Johnson, Altidore (Cunningham, Walker, and others if they can recover), etc.
Center Forward: Twellman, Ching, Cooper(if he recovers), Razov, Barrett, etc.
Creative Mid: Donovan, Dempsey, Beckermen, Adu, etc.
Attacking/Aggressive Mid: Dempsey, Mathis, Clark, Feilhaber
Left Flank: Beasley, Convey, Pearce,
Right Flank: Ralston, Olsen, Quaranta, Klein, Albright, Wynne, Hedjuk, Cherundolo, etc.
Defensive Mid: Mastroeni, Zavagnin, Mulrooney, Clark, etc.
Left Center Back: Bocanegra, Conrad, Spector, Burciaga, Garcia, Sturgis, Burch, etc.
Center Back: Bocanegra, Marshall, Garcia, Conrad, Demerit, Boswell, Parkhurst, Simek, etc.
Right Center Back: Namoff, Spector, Pierce, Prideaux, Moor, Wynne, etc.
Keeper: Howard, Hahnemann, Perkins, Reis, Rimando, etc.
I'm sure I missed a few, and don't have them ranked in all the right order all around... but, those are talented players the US has, who can fill those positions... Let them go out and do it... Stop hnadicapping them, by playing them out of position, or taking away forwards for them to create for...
If I see one more 4-6-0 out of Bradley... I may resort to unthinkables.... like switching back to being a fan of Kazakstan...
How is losing 4-2 in your own turf prove you can hang with the big boys? WOW
I did not see the second half but at least in the first Brazil was not playing top notch game but rather taking it as a casual friendly. Of course when US scored they would take it up a notch and answer right back.
Also, I don't know if you guys were aware of this but Robinho got a clear foul in the box which was clearly a penalty but was not called. Make it 5-2 if that would of been called and Ronaldinho doesn't miss like Donovan.
You guys cry about all the stuff that went against you guys but clearly dont want to put into account the bad Brazil calls which on top would have been a PK for the Robinho foul. I was watching the Spanish channel since the US commentators are so ********ing biased its unbelievable.
Seriously, folks. Isn't it kind of a step backward to say "we hung with a top team and only lost 4-2 at home"? That's something we would have said 10 years ago, but should be past saying by now, if we've truly progressed. I know we're in a mini "rebuilding" phase, trying out some young players, but I am just not used to this team having a losing streak like this.
As usual, there is no accountability. The US Federation and press put no pressure on the manager or the players. We are ranked as a top-20 team right now. Can you imagine what the reaction might be if any of the other teams in the top-20 lost five in a row and just conceded 4 goals at home?
I for one dont care if the USA lose all the friendly games up to qualifiing. The A Team is learning how to win by losing games. You don't learn this by beating Mexico everytime. I for one am glad we are not playing Concacrap teams for friendlies. You watch, these games will make the biggest difference for a positive future.
its not so black and white... first, it's a friendly, so the result isnt the first priority; second, the US played well in many areas, which is a positive and what you look for at this stage of NT development....progress. Third, losing by 2 to a strong Brazilian side is not like losing by two to most other teams in the world, it's not the result you want but a positive result of any kind against Brazil is an achievement.
Having said all that, the USNT still needs improvement in many areas.
Beasley also dida poor job on the free kick he took outside the box. It didn't get near anyone on either team. The whole team needs to work on crossing.
Better yet, why was a mod posting a result in a thread title less than six hours after the game was over?
I think everyone is okay with the loss because the US played attractive soccer for a change.
Our guys went out there and proved they weren't afraid and manned up against everyone on the field.
After the recent displays from the team this was a breath of fresh air.
Bad calls aside, we hung with Brazil the entire game and the team needed this game against the best in the world to truly realize how good they can be.
I personally believe people are okay with the loss because we got to see that when the offensive side of the ball for us is firing on all cylinders, it can actually be pretty damn good.
Brazil scored 4. A pk, a free kick, a corner and an own goal. It can be viewed as a positive that Brazil didn't score by their own foot during the run of play. The free and the corner and giving up a frustration PK as I view it, will happen all the time, in every game. If we didn't have the mental lapses on the free and the corner, maybe the PK never comes to be. So it was a good thing for the US to finally be punished for the little things they screw up each game because now they can start realizing those things that go unpunished at club level a lot of times will kill you against the top teams.
So while I dont think many are jumping up and down, this isn't exactly the same as a 4-2 loss to Panama.