Why hasn't this bill passed? Hell, why can't it get out of committee? WHY?!?

Discussion in 'Politics & Current Events' started by Mel Brennan, Nov 11, 2004.

  1. Mel Brennan

    Mel Brennan PLANITARCHIS' BANE

    Paris Saint Germain
    United States
    Apr 8, 2002
    Baltimore
    Club:
    Paris Saint Germain FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    H. R. 2239

    22 May 2003, the bill demanding a paper trail for each vote was introduced by NJ Congressman Rush Holt.

    The Republican leadership, far from fast-tracking this bill, or allowing it to take its natural course, apparently did not - and has not - allowed it to leave committee.

    Does anyone have an answer for this? Seriously. What other reason than the obvious would DeLay have for apparently obstructing a process of keeping track of votes in a permanent (and not ephemerally cyberspatial) way?

    IS there a good answer for holding this bill up? I'm truly interested.
     
  2. speedcake

    speedcake Member

    Dec 2, 1999
    Tampa
    Club:
    FC Tampa Bay Rowdies
    Nat'l Team:
    United States

    I can't wait to read the excuses you're gonna get.
     
  3. topcatcole

    topcatcole BigSoccer Supporter

    Apr 26, 2003
    Washington DC
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Do you have any links to the debate on this bill? Have there been any entries in the Congressional Record about it? What committee is it in?
    What is the purpose of this bill? At first glance it just looks like it requires you to have hard copy output available for auditing and to give a copy of it to the voter. What is the advantage to this? You seem to imply that republicans would be opposed to this bill. What leads you to believe this? Why would a bill like this help Dems more than Reps? Why do you assume that Tom DeLay is obstructing this bill? What reason do you think he has? You say it is obvious. It's not obvious to me, but maybe I am a bit slower than everyone else.
    Why do you believe that a piece of paper is more "permanent" than a "cyberspatial" solution? The half-life of a CD or hard-drive is much greater than that of a piece of paper.
    I'm truly interested.
     
  4. flowergirl

    flowergirl Member+

    Aug 11, 2004
    panama city, FL
    Club:
    Columbus Crew
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    The paper is backup. And you can't reprogram or hack into a piece of paper. :)
     
  5. topcatcole

    topcatcole BigSoccer Supporter

    Apr 26, 2003
    Washington DC
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    You can replace the paper, or have a fire, or spill coffee on it, or...
    There are also ways to determine if digital media has been tampered with that are unbreakable. You may not always be able to reconstruct the data, but you would know if it had been modified.
     
  6. DJPoopypants

    DJPoopypants New Member

    Why do people not want a paper-trail?

    a) well, besides the ability of the digital machine manufacturer to create votes for his favorite party

    b) local election boards wouldn't bother spending big $ on digital election machines if they had to keep paper results anyway. They'd be like, "I thought you promised we wouldn't need them? Screw it, we'll go back to the old system"

    c) Inevitably, the paper and digital won't match, due to the many potential problems with hardcopy records, even if the results were truly accurate. And then that opens up for more lawsuits and complaints.

    d) there are hundreds of ways to mess with paper records. There are ways to mess with digital results. Its a trade-off.
     
  7. Revolt

    Revolt Member+

    Jun 16, 1999
    Davis, CA
    Club:
    San Jose Earthquakes
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    On a related note:

    http://www.sacbee.com/state_wire/story/11380251p-12294653c.html

    Diebold Inc. agreed to pay $2.6 million to settle a lawsuit filed by California alleging that the electronic voting company sold the state and several counties shoddy voting equipment.

    And, conspiracy theorists should take note:



    The former computer system administrator was also upset that the state announced the deal so quickly. Several activist groups, computer scientists and federal researchers are analyzing Nov. 2 election data, looking for evidence of vote rigging or unintentional miscounts in hundreds of counties nationwide that used touch-screen terminals. Results are expected by early December. "This settlement will shut down a major avenue of investigation before evidence starts trickling in," March said. "It's very premature."
     
  8. JPhurst

    JPhurst New Member

    Jul 30, 2001
    Jersey City, NJ
    Is there ever a discrepancy between the automatic records at an ATM and the aggregate result of the paper receipts? I'm not saying things would be flawless, but this bill seems like a slam dunk.

    Here's another proposal. Any electronic vote counting's source code has to be pubclicly disclosed and posted on the web. The marketplace of ideas would allow any flaws to be quickly spotted and corrected. Or if it can't be corrected, then the program would be scrapped.
     
  9. Smiley321

    Smiley321 Member

    Apr 21, 2002
    Concord, Ca
    I don't know the real reasons for acting or not on this bill, but it looks like it will cost alot and be of no use for anything.

    Unless you think that you could do a recount by having everyone bring their stubs in, an absurd notion.
     
  10. ElJefe

    ElJefe Moderator
    Staff Member

    Feb 16, 1999
    Colorful Colorado
    Club:
    FC Dallas
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    My understanding of paper backup is that the paper backups would be dropped into a ballot box.
     
  11. Benito

    Benito Red Card

    Aug 25, 2004
    Better question is why don't the demos want a law that says the vote should be by voter finger print. For some unknown reason they don't like that. The republicans like it why are the demos against good way to avoid cheating. What are the demos aftraid of?
     
  12. Casper

    Casper Member+

    Mar 30, 2001
    New York
    The fear with fingerprinting is that it may have the effect of intimidating voters, particularly minority voters.
     
  13. Smiley321

    Smiley321 Member

    Apr 21, 2002
    Concord, Ca
    Even their fingerprints look alike, huh?
     
  14. Ian McCracken

    Ian McCracken Member

    May 28, 1999
    USA
    Club:
    SS Lazio Roma
    Nat'l Team:
    Italy
    Why don't the Democrats want ID shown at polling locations?
     
  15. Benito

    Benito Red Card

    Aug 25, 2004
    Especially those with records or other who are here illegally.
     
  16. SoFla Metro

    SoFla Metro Member

    Jul 21, 2000
    Ft. Lauderdale, FL
    So I guess you never get a receipt when you make a deposit at an ATM. Because something could conceivably happen to the paper.
     
  17. SoFla Metro

    SoFla Metro Member

    Jul 21, 2000
    Ft. Lauderdale, FL
    You were right.
     
  18. topcatcole

    topcatcole BigSoccer Supporter

    Apr 26, 2003
    Washington DC
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Did you read the post I was replying to? I didn't think so.
     
  19. Garcia

    Garcia Member

    Dec 14, 1999
    Castro Castro
    I don't feel like looking it up, but ever since I have been voting, and that is 15 years now, my precinct in Ohio has been using what is called an "old type of touch screen".

    This touch screen is a huge ballot with flashing red lights. Once you make a selection for a particular race, the person(s) you voted for get a solid red light and not other votes for that race can be made.

    I never got a paper trail / copy of my vote. Where has the outrage been?
    Oh yea, whatever. :rolleyes:
     
  20. Mel Brennan

    Mel Brennan PLANITARCHIS' BANE

    Paris Saint Germain
    United States
    Apr 8, 2002
    Baltimore
    Club:
    Paris Saint Germain FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    There's more misdirection here than in a two-bit magic act on a high school stage in Hoboken.

    I guess I can assume that, at least among BushCorp. adherents here, there IS no GOOD reason to delay consideration of that bill.

    None at all.
     
  21. topcatcole

    topcatcole BigSoccer Supporter

    Apr 26, 2003
    Washington DC
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    What misdirection are you referring to? I'm not sure if you are referring to me, but in the absence of further information, I don't think most people can make any judgement about this bill that seems to be of great concern to the original poster. Can anyone tell me what problem this bill is trying to address? It is not at all obvious to me.

    I do know that consideration of a lot of bills gets delayed for reasons totally unrelated to politics, and some get delayed for purely political reasons. I asked in my first post for more specifics about this bill, and I have seen no real discussion of this. Again I ask, what is the purpose and history of this bill? What committee is it stuck in? These are legitimate questions that one should know the answers to before deciding whether it is important or not.
     
  22. Naughtius Maximus

    Jul 10, 2001
    Shropshire
    Club:
    Chelsea FC
    Nat'l Team:
    England
    Just as a matter of interest how long have you guys had electronic or punch card voting? Over here we still do it the old fashioned way with a cross in a box. It ain't quick but you can certainly recount them as many times as you like and there's not much danger of matters of opinion as to who you've voted for.
     
  23. topcatcole

    topcatcole BigSoccer Supporter

    Apr 26, 2003
    Washington DC
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Here is Congressman Holt's site for this bill: http://holt.house.gov/display2.cfm?id=6282&type=Home

    Just in case anyone here is interested in finding out some of the background and concerns that have led to this bill.
    http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/bdquery/z?d108:h.r.02239:

    It seems to me that if you are interested in something like this and would like to engender support, it is useful to post some basic information about it. Just a suggestion.

    BTW, now that I have done some more reading, it seems like a good bill. It was held up in part because there were three similar bills in the Senate, and many Congresspersons wanted to see which bill would emerge. Now, this amendment will need to be amended because it specifically calls out the 2004 election as the time for implementation. Persoanlly, I would support a bill like this, now that I have some information to base my opinion on, but it doesn't matter since I live in DC and we are taxed by but not represented in Congress.
     
  24. Mel Brennan

    Mel Brennan PLANITARCHIS' BANE

    Paris Saint Germain
    United States
    Apr 8, 2002
    Baltimore
    Club:
    Paris Saint Germain FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States

    Yeah, I guess posting a link to the actual BILL, the actual legislation on offer, with no spin from any "side," wasn't enough to get the party started.

    :rolleyes:
     
  25. Mel Brennan

    Mel Brennan PLANITARCHIS' BANE

    Paris Saint Germain
    United States
    Apr 8, 2002
    Baltimore
    Club:
    Paris Saint Germain FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    THIS...should be the mantra of this forum.
     

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