Why don't we produce young ballers that Europe wants?

Discussion in 'USA Men' started by NewDadaCoach, Dec 22, 2023.

  1. superdave

    superdave Member+

    Jul 14, 1999
    VB, VA
    Club:
    DC United
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Why are y’all writing serious responses to a troll? Don’t feed him and he’ll go away.
     
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  2. Master O

    Master O Member+

    Jul 7, 2006
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    So these days, what factors are still holding MLS back when it comes to competitiveness against Liga MX in these tournaments?
     
  3. superdave

    superdave Member+

    Jul 14, 1999
    VB, VA
    Club:
    DC United
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Also, about baseball. It’s the opposite of soccer.

    See, soccer is the sport of the future and always will be. Baseball, on the other hand, is dying and always has been.
     
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  4. Paul Berry

    Paul Berry Member+

    Notts County and NYCFC
    United States
    Apr 18, 2015
    Nr Kingston NY
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Timing
    You could clearly see that MLS teams were struggling for form in the early rounds. That really only explains the first couple of rounds.

    Form
    Liga MX's in-form teams are in the competition. The remaining teams are in the top 7. Orlando, New England and even Philly started the season really badly. Philly has recovered.

    Red Cards
    A couple of sendings off at critical times, particularly Ruiz when Miami were leading in the first leg.

    Depth
    The top 3 Mexican teams have similar budgets to MLS but there are more players in the $600k to $1.2 million range. MLS teams may have 3 DPs and 3 TAM players but after that the players are all below the budget cap max. Increasing the max salary to $1M or $1.2M could help provide that depth.
    Pachuca are just a phenom. If the stats are to be believed that have a lower payroll than any MLS team in 2023.

    One thing I noticed is that the Liga MX defenses are just on another level. That's where loosening the salary restrictions would really help.

    Just my excuses.
     
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  5. gogorath

    gogorath Member+

    None
    United States
    May 12, 2019
    In the CCC, there are two primary drivers.

    One, it's very early in the MLS season -- the first round starts before the season starts. The teams are often rusty, and new players are not integrated -- and at points, not even signed!

    Two is depth. It's not just that the very top of LigaMX can pull in attackers off the bench that are more or less starting quality in the 75th minutes. It's much more than MLS teams really can't stand any level of injuries to stars. Philly played one of its two games without Julian Carranza, who is a good 50% of their offense. Houston is playing this whole season without any of its DPs, including Hector Herrera (they lost to an MLS team). Miami played the first game without Messi, I think, and Columbus the first game without Cucho Hernandez. Cincy played without Acosta for a game, I think?

    The top of LigaMX just pops a guy in of near similar value if anyone is hurt. Gignac isn't better than Cucho Hernandez, but Gignac's backup is much better than Cucho's.

    I'd also say that there's a mental factor for some of these teams -- LigaMX teams still bring some intimidation, especially at altitude in Mexico. The officiating is also always trash as they avoid using American or Mexican refs in these games, but it's not always pro-LigaMX. This year it has been.

    I also think that the top LigaMX teams are a bit inefficient in spending -- they tend to overpay at times. So I expect, as MLS does better and better, to see more poaching from MLS and more improving of those rosters.

    Is Henry Martin the best América can do at striker for his salary, or is he just a good Mexican striker? América has a massive payroll compared to everyone except Messi-driven Miami, and I don't think he's materially better than quite a few MLS strikers. There's also a reason Monterey came in and grabbed Vazquez even off a mediocre MLS season.
     
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  6. Elninho

    Elninho Member+

    Sacramento Republic FC
    United States
    Oct 30, 2000
    Sacramento, CA
    Club:
    Los Angeles Galaxy
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    #681 Elninho, Apr 15, 2024
    Last edited: Apr 15, 2024
    I think we can expand on this. The best MLS teams one year are typically not the best the following year. Although Liga MX has historically been more competitive than most leagues, in recent years the big-money teams have pulled away from the pack and been at the top of the league year after year.

    A while ago I posted the aggregate domestic performance of the MLS and Liga MX teams in the CCL/CCC, in the season they actually compete in the tournament (rather than the one where they qualified for it) from 2020 to present. 2024 numbers were for the current season as of April 4, which was the day I calculated it and posted it in the MLS forum.

    MLS

    2020: 1.40 PPG
    2021: 1.38 PPG
    2022: 1.45 PPG
    2023: 1.52 PPG
    2024: 1.46 PPG

    Liga MX

    2020: 1.90 PPG (all 4 reps in top 6)
    2021: 1.96 PPG (all 4 reps in top 6)
    2022: 1.29 PPG
    2023: 1.57 PPG
    2024: 1.88 PPG (5 of 6 reps in top 6)

    On average, the MLS teams in the CCL/CCC have been slightly better than mid-table; they're only slightly stronger than you'd expect if MLS's reps were selected completely at random. Most years, the Liga MX teams have been top of the table the season they play in the CCL/CCC. 2022 and 2023 had unusually weak Liga MX teams in the CCL -- and even then, their 2023 reps had better domestic records than the MLS teams in any of the five years.

    Notably, 2022 is the only year of the last five in which any Liga MX team with more losses than wins was in the CCL/CCC; MLS, on the other hand, has teams with more losses than wins in the CCL/CCC every year.
     
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  7. psnotyours

    psnotyours Member

    Bvb
    United States
    Mar 8, 2023
    It's a league that players don't use as a retirement league.
     
  8. Paul Berry

    Paul Berry Member+

    Notts County and NYCFC
    United States
    Apr 18, 2015
    Nr Kingston NY
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I don't know what that means.
     
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  9. Clint Eastwood

    Clint Eastwood Member+

    Dec 23, 2003
    Somerville, MA
    Club:
    FC Dallas
    This whole retirement league nonsense is basically...................nonsense.

    The average age of MLS rosters is very often under 26. So far this year, Miami, NYCFC, NYRB, Colorado, Philadelphia, Dallas, RSL, Montreal, Columbus, Seattle, etc. have all fielded lineups with average ages under 26.

    MLS is an athletic and physically demanding league. You learn pretty quickly which players coming from Europe can't hack it.

    MLS is signing a helluva lot more young South Americans with upside than older European players. At least for those people paying attention as opposed to repeating talking points from 2004.
     
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  10. Elninho

    Elninho Member+

    Sacramento Republic FC
    United States
    Oct 30, 2000
    Sacramento, CA
    Club:
    Los Angeles Galaxy
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    In recent years I've been increasingly convinced that a big part of the "retirement league" image comes from players talking about being interested in playing in MLS as they get older, rather than from players actually appearing in MLS. Most of those players never actually sign in MLS, but end up contributing to the "retirement league" image anyway.
     
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  11. psnotyours

    psnotyours Member

    Bvb
    United States
    Mar 8, 2023
    Players like Messi, Zlatan, Bale, Suárez, Beckham, Jordi Alba, and many more. have said that MLS is not a good league or sometimes say MLS is a "Minor League" When those types of players come out and say that. It makes that league look bad and not respected. You don't hear the same when it comes to Liga MX.
     
  12. First of all, a league is there for the fans of the clubs competing in it.
    They shouldnot care how others see the quality of the league, it's their league with their clubs they support.
    Nobody, but very few people in a few football sites like BS, talk about mls. So what does it mean "makes that league look bad and not respected"?
     
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  13. Paul Berry

    Paul Berry Member+

    Notts County and NYCFC
    United States
    Apr 18, 2015
    Nr Kingston NY
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    #688 Paul Berry, Apr 16, 2024
    Last edited: Apr 16, 2024
    So when older players go to other leagues it's not a retirement league but when they come to MLS it is?

    Messi wants to play in Argentina next. Suarez was in Brazil last year. Zlatan and Beckham went to Serie A. Villa went to Japan. Nani is still playing.
     
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  14. gogorath

    gogorath Member+

    None
    United States
    May 12, 2019
    The retirement league crap is basically propagated on social media by people who haven't watched the league in ages.

    You won't find anyone who normally watches it say that. I think there's maybe 5-10 guys in the league where that's relevant, at most.
     
  15. gogorath

    gogorath Member+

    None
    United States
    May 12, 2019
    Did you just cite a player who came to MLS in 2007? And another who went back to Serie A after spending time in MLS?

    Dude, over and over you prove your complete ignorance of this shit. There's 29 teams in MLS and they carry rosters of about 30 players; so about 900 players.

    Right now, Messi, Suarez, Alba, Busquets, Shaqiri, Insigne (though he came over at 31), Benteke, Hector Herrera, and if you are generous to Teemu Pukki, Teemu Pukki.

    That's 9 players out of 900, and four of them are on one team. And oh, one is the greatest player of all time and still could player anywhere, and another was the best player in Brazil last year.

    But 1% of the league right now. One percent! Totally a retirement league.

    The worst thing about posters like you is that you've been proven wrong on this multiple times with real facts and then you come back and keep spewing it.

    And the vast majority of those players actually come out and say they are surprised at the difficulty and quality of the league. A good number of the retirement players can't actually hack the physicality and suck.
     
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  16. psnotyours

    psnotyours Member

    Bvb
    United States
    Mar 8, 2023
    OC why not lol
     
  17. Clint Eastwood

    Clint Eastwood Member+

    Dec 23, 2003
    Somerville, MA
    Club:
    FC Dallas
    There are 29 teams in MLS. More than 500 players. If somebody can name 5 or 6 players they think are "retirement age" that came to MLS, then that's a very, very small percentage of the player pool

    When an older player goes to a league like Serie A, which happens all the time, people don't say that it's a "retirement league."

    Thiago Silva is 39 and playing in the Premier League. What a retirement league!!!??

    No, he's still good enough. And a lot of those older guys playing in MLS are still good enough. That's all that matters.

    Ya know who one of the oldest players in the Premier League has been this year? Tim Ream. Only 3 field players older than Ream. Silva, Ashley Young, and James Milner.

    Ashley Young of Everton is 38. What a retirement league!!!!??
     
  18. Paul Berry

    Paul Berry Member+

    Notts County and NYCFC
    United States
    Apr 18, 2015
    Nr Kingston NY
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Half the teams in the Premier League would have happily signed Messi last summer.
     
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  19. Clint Eastwood

    Clint Eastwood Member+

    Dec 23, 2003
    Somerville, MA
    Club:
    FC Dallas
    23 players older than 35 have played in Serie A this season.

    So far in MLS...................26 players older than 35 have played.
    [8 of them are goalkeepers.]

    MLS has more teams than Serie A.

    So no, MLS doesn't use more players on the old side than top 5 leagues.

    There is literally nothing to this "retirement league" moniker other than people with an agenda trying to promote that agenda. Why do they have this agenda? Nobody knows.
     
  20. An Unpaved Road

    An Unpaved Road Member+

    Mar 22, 2006
    Club:
    --other--
    I don’t get “retirement league” hate even if it was an accurate description of MLS. We’re supposed to worship Euro soccer, so seeing great talent being able to extend their playing days and American talent being able to learn from them should be a good thing.
     
  21. Actually they don't have an agenda, because it means nothing. Just filling empty pages.
     
  22. Elninho

    Elninho Member+

    Sacramento Republic FC
    United States
    Oct 30, 2000
    Sacramento, CA
    Club:
    Los Angeles Galaxy
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I count "retirement" players based on the age at which they first entered the league. In general, I don't think it's fair to count someone as a "retirement" player if they enter MLS when they're 32 or younger. Even at 33 or older, players may not be that far off their competitive peak, especially with modern fitness regimens, but I think entering the league at 33+ is a reasonable place to draw the line for possible "retirement" players.

    The number of players in MLS who entered the league at 33+ has not exceeded 0.5 per team since the 1990s. It dropped as low as just 1 player league-wide for the first half of the 2022 season (Christian Fuchs and no one else). Currently it's 10 players across 29 teams, and Miami has 4 of them:

    Charlotte - Scott Arfield
    Dallas - Asier Illarramendi
    LAFC - Hugo Lloris
    LA Galaxy - Martin Caceres, Maya Yoshida
    Inter Miami - Jordi Alba, Sergio Busquets, Lionel Messi, Luis Suarez
    Toronto - Kevin Long

    The only reason the number was higher in the 1990s is that every player in the league was new to the league in 1996.

    Chicago, Colorado, Montreal, NYCFC, and Portland have no players who are currently 33 or older. Also, Cincinnati, NYRB, and St. Louis have no outfield players who are currently 33 or older. And most of the 33+ players in the league are MLS lifers.
     
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  23. Paul Berry

    Paul Berry Member+

    Notts County and NYCFC
    United States
    Apr 18, 2015
    Nr Kingston NY
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    There's also the MLS publicity machine.

    Gareth Barry joined West Brom in the Championship at 37. No-one called it a retirement league. Billy Sharp joined Hull City aged 39 from LAFC. Jamie Vardy is 37.
     
  24. I think Robin van Persie was 35, when he returned to Feyenoord. Nobody calls the Eredivisie a retirement league. He wacked Ajax in Rotterdam with 6-2, while they had de Ligt playing in the defense.
    With the right player it is a bonus for young lads to have the guidance of someone who've seen it all.
     
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  25. HomietheClown

    HomietheClown Member+

    Dusselheim FC 1971
    Sep 4, 2010
    Club:
    --other--
    Luis Muriel is 33 at Orlando.
    I will count him even though he just turned 33 a few days ago. ;)
     
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