Why doesn't the U.S. produce star players?

Discussion in 'Soccer in the USA' started by trekker, Jul 7, 2011.

  1. BarraUru

    BarraUru Member

    Apr 18, 2011
    Montevideo
    Club:
    CA Peñarol
    Nat'l Team:
    Uruguay

    Lmfao
     
  2. It's called FOOTBALL

    LMX Clubs
    Mexico
    May 4, 2009
    Chitown
    Venezuela doesn't have the advantage that usa does in population and resources.
     
  3. BigKeeper

    BigKeeper Member

    Mar 1, 2006
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I agree with the U.S. not having experienced coaches being the problem. Along with the lack of experience to develop players to maximum potential we lack experienced scouts to find players with actual real long term talent and athletic potential. Most of our coaches see players for the "right now" effect of their teams. A player who is considered a "top player" at U13-U18, very often either doesn't have the potential or the skill foundation for pro or top world standards. Like most parents, most coaches are wowed by a fast youth player.
     
  4. elessar78

    elessar78 Moderator
    Staff Member

    May 12, 2010
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    What do you think we're talking about when we say "youth development programs"?
     
  5. tjorns1

    tjorns1 New Member

    Jul 30, 2011
    Club:
    Eintracht Frankfurt
    I agree with you 100%. But a Coaching Diploma does not mean that the Coach can see and work on talented players. Most important is that the Coach must have played Soccer himself, especially at a rather higher league where he can practically learn playing Soccer and talents.
    But I am sure within couple of years Soccer will change in the US and US will become one of the leaders of Soccer in the World.
    PS: One more thing I want to share with my friends; In Europe at any Coaching Certificate Programs, before the session start they let all candidates play soccer and see who can kick the ball straight. Everyone cannot be a Soccer Coach.
     
  6. elessar78

    elessar78 Moderator
    Staff Member

    May 12, 2010
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    In the US not everyone who wants to coach has played the game. So we have to make due with what we have. Does that hold back players who are with these coaches? Sure it does. But there are exceptions. Bruce Arena never played at a high level but he coached a US team to the quarter finals of the World Cup. So surely, at youth levels, while immensely important, even one who is not a good player can teach the game well enough to help players more than hurt.

    There are many here who have played the game, are good players, but are awful teachers of the game. Playing the game and teaching the game are two totally different things. Many players are not thoughtful enough to breakdown their own game much less teach it to someone else.

    Where the coach without a decent level of playing experience falls short is providing insight into the game. He/she can't provide "real" advice that a player might feel in the heat of competition. I played as a striker for most of my life, I can give my players insight into that aspect of the game that others who did not have similar experiences cannot. Now I also train goalkeepers. I never played keeper during my playing days (now I do, so I can learn first hand) but I've studied how to train keepers and feel comfortable that I can teach the basics well.

    As an aside, I always ask my players why they listen to what their parents yell so much on the sideline during games? At this point, they have played and know more soccer than their parents.
     
  7. tjorns1

    tjorns1 New Member

    Jul 30, 2011
    Club:
    Eintracht Frankfurt
    There is a huge difference between Coaches who never played Soccer in rather higher leagues and possess Diplomas and the Coaches who played soccer in the higher leagues.
    Bruce Arena is only one exception. If you did not played in higher leagues how can you identify a 6 or 7 years old talent. If you were a talent yourself than you will immediately identify the young talent during your Coaching period. I do not know but, I guess that all NBA Coaches and Coaches of U14 - U17are passed players in the higher leagues.
    Practical experience is the most important factor in all sport branches. I am sure that all Coaching Certificate and Diploma programs will be changed in US after Klinsmann being the Head Coach. All Participants will be checked by their soccer capability before entering programs. Which is all over Europe. If you did not played well enough Soccer, you can never be a Soccer Coach.
     
  8. elessar78

    elessar78 Moderator
    Staff Member

    May 12, 2010
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    I don't disagree with you, BUT in America we have to work with what we have. There are not enough people who know what they are doing to teach the game to all the youngsters that want to learn.

    First of all, there's no identifying young talent at 6 or 7 and be sure that those players will still be good by the time they are 15. It's true in Europe, South America, and everywhere else. It doesn't take a genius to see who can play better than their peers at 6 or 7.

    Arrigo Sacchi would beg to differ.
     
  9. tjorns1

    tjorns1 New Member

    Jul 30, 2011
    Club:
    Eintracht Frankfurt
    Exactly you are right...I am sure Klinsmann will try to change this. Otherwise he will never be successful. But it is not easy to change that quickly. The other handicap is that you have many sports during the year in US like Basketball, Baseball, Football ect. Complete Europe Asia and almost complete Latin America plays only Soccer all year. This makes also a lot of difference.
     
  10. tjorns1

    tjorns1 New Member

    Jul 30, 2011
    Club:
    Eintracht Frankfurt
    Yes completely correct, I witnessed that many times almost every game in US Parents are yelling from outside. If you kindly allow me let me tell you the reason. Because the Parents does not trust the Coach. If they trust and respect the Coach they will be quite.
    This was the reason I wrote that the Coaches must be experienced in playing also.- in that case they will be respected. We teach all players in Germany, 6 years old to full professionals not to hear anything, or don't listen others than the Coach during the game. Parents have no idea of soccer and they should be only spectators.
     
  11. BarraUru

    BarraUru Member

    Apr 18, 2011
    Montevideo
    Club:
    CA Peñarol
    Nat'l Team:
    Uruguay

    Soccer camps, etc..

    The problem aren't the coaches, it's the players.
     
  12. bigredfutbol

    bigredfutbol Moderator
    Staff Member

    Sep 5, 2000
    Woodbridge, VA
    Club:
    DC United
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I could not agree more. It's very tiresome, and I don't know why coaches/clubs put up with it. I'm not saying I'm perfect--I had my moments when I got frustrated with my son and yelled "encouragement" which was really a way of expressing my less-than-admirable desire to see him do better (in my opinion). Fortunately, I soon saw the error of my ways and realized how stupid and ugly I sounded.

    I know parents who have NEVER played the game, don't watch it, don't even really care for it, who constantly "coach" their kids during games; I know one Dad who's got his son to the point where the kid actually spends games constantly keeping an eye on where his Dad is so he can be sure to pick up what he's being told to do--which generally boils down to running around like a chicken with his head cut off.

    Fortunately for his son, the boy is reasonably athletic, somewhat technically gifted, and very competitive and determined, so he's able to compensate for his father's inappropriate direction (and his own tactical ineptness--unfortunately, this boy does not read the game very well, which is one reason why I think he doesn't ignore his father more), at least enough for the coach to continue to have faith in him.

    That's an extreme example, but in general I see lots of parents coaching their kids with the aim of trying to win games, not develop as players. That's the real problem--these parents don't care about development, they want trophies and their kids' picture in the local paper.
     
  13. tjorns1

    tjorns1 New Member

    Jul 30, 2011
    Club:
    Eintracht Frankfurt
    Please allow me to express one of my experience. I was invited to Coach an Amateur Club U14 in Tampa Fl. for three months period, because as a tourist you can only stay three months in USA. Same thing happened with the Parents. During our first friendly game at least 6-7 Parents or Grandparents were yelling and trying to dictate their son. During the half time break I did not talk any words to the players and told them to take a rest. I took the ball and start playing with the ball myself. Did some attractions with the ball. One of the Parents saw that and showed to others. They were very impressed and frozen. Second half time not even one Parent said a word and never again.
    I think this is the main Problem. US Parents are not used to Professional Soccer Players Coaching Amateurs. They all believe they can Coach too. Coaching is not that easy. You have to show the players during the Practice how to do combinations and or tactics and not by talking, you have to do it yourself and in an excellent way. You as a Coach must be a Model. Players should admire his Coach how he play soccer and his capability. This will motivate the young player and then you can see his talent. At least this is what we do in Germany.
     
  14. HailtotheKing

    HailtotheKing Member+

    San Antonio FC
    United States
    Dec 1, 2008
    TEXAS
    Club:
    San Antonio Scorpions FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States

    LOL WUT ... no really what ?

    Who is it that develops players ? teaches the game ? etc etc .... ? It's coaches.

    Soccer camps ? Yeah I'm very familiar with them. I'm also familiar with the "youth" clubs in cities like San Antonio. SA United ? JOKE ... they import Brit cast offs that have a "soccer superiority" complex and act in that manner. They scoff at the latino-american kids because they see their type of play as "insufficient" and "lacking proper football skill" ... happens year in and year out at all levels all over the place. They only cater to the kids they feel are somewhat close to the "proper" mold and coach only to them (IE - their parents pay for extras and they don't have any real background in the game other than they know what it is).

    Coaching is a joke at this point (on the whole, not to say there aren't good ones out there because their are). Until the facade of "fancy soccer sounding name Youth Club" and "he's Brit/Italian so he knows soccer better than us" goes away and proper coaches are developed ... we'll continue to lag behind in player development.
     
  15. JPMartinez

    JPMartinez New Member

    May 19, 2011
    Club:
    CSKA Moskva
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    No, it all boils down to the fact that all of our top athletes choose other sports like basketball, football, or baseball. We have athletes in our country who have the speed, and overall athletic ability soccer demands, but they choose other sports. In almost every other country soccer is the number 1 sport. Their soccer programs get all of the most athletic individuals in the country. That is not the case with the US soccer program which is why the US doesn't produce talent like other countries
     
  16. HailtotheKing

    HailtotheKing Member+

    San Antonio FC
    United States
    Dec 1, 2008
    TEXAS
    Club:
    San Antonio Scorpions FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    even if all of the "top" athletes chose soccer today .... 1% of them would get the proper coaching for development.

    FACT.
     
  17. silverllama

    silverllama Member

    Jun 26, 2007
    Basketball? You are mistaking the type of athlete it takes to play both.
    Kobe wasn't a very good soccer player as a kid.
    Football? Some positions only, RB, WR and CB have the body types, of course we have no idea if they have feet coordination for soccer. Completely different animal than what it is needed for American Football.
    Baseball is just a different sport all together.

    You are mistaken in believing that a good athlete makes a good soccer player. This sport requires a ton of skills.
     
  18. BigKeeper

    BigKeeper Member

    Mar 1, 2006
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Soccer does need very good athletes but the remark you were replying to, I think, misunderstands what a top athlete designed for Soccer is. That, best athletes play Football, Basketball argument is old and outdated even though the anti-soccer crowd continues to ignorantly regurgitate it.
    If the so-called top athletes that chose grid iron FB, were to play Soccer their whole lives, they would not look the way they do right now. They would look long and very lean, so they themselves would not be considered a "top athlete" anymore. In the U.S., our image of a top athlete has been defined by what we have been taught by our TV's, NFL - big bi's and tri's (heavy things to lug around) and overall mass. The heavier with limited jiggle, the better. The large majority of NFL players wouldn't last up to 15 minutes in a pro Soccer game, they're not made to. Most NBA players would not be quick enough, except point guards.
    I have actually seen many young kids leave Soccer because of a lack of success, usually not having the quickness and quick recovery necessary, that go to Football and Baseball and have better success.
    I look at many H.S. Football players and think, in their current physique (usually too fluffy), they could never make it in Soccer, they would get embarrassed.
    I don't think the top athletes argument is applicable anymore, plus we have more youth playing Soccer than entire populations of some Soccer powerhouse countries. We have all the athletes we need. We just lack the coaching and the scouting.
     
  19. JPMartinez

    JPMartinez New Member

    May 19, 2011
    Club:
    CSKA Moskva
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    no you two are both wrong. My argument still applicable until the day the us mens national team gets a player quicker than DeSean Jackson or more athletic and agile than Ladanian Tomslinson. You don't realize that if these players were brought up from a young age to play soccer, then those athletic skills would be developed for the soccer pitch. All good athletes can be good at other sports if they practice it. For example look at Jozy Altidore. If he had not been a soccer player he probably would be a wide reciever or tight end in the nfl. The same goes with basketball too. Basketball requires quick moves and insanely fast reflexes, perfect for a messi type player. Josh Howard would be a great defender somewhat along the likes of John Terry. And i'm not saying every nfl player or every nba player would fit the mould of a star soccer player. I'm just saying that if soccer got a quarter of the athletic talent football gets than usa would easily be top 5 in the world as a national team.

    And i can't believe you said "You are mistaken in believing that a good athlete makes a good soccer player. This sport requires a ton of skills." Name me one unathletic soccer player. Name me one out of shape, uncoordinated, unathletic soccer player.
     
  20. silverllama

    silverllama Member

    Jun 26, 2007
    Let me make it easy for you to understand.

    Just becaues you are a good athlete, it doesn't mean you would have been a good soccer player.
    Being athletic is not the same as being an athlete. An athlete is born with physical attributes that others don't posses. You can become athletic by working hard, you can even get faster and more agile.
    But that doesn't make you an athlete.
    Josh Howard had limited basketball skills when he started in the NBA, but because he was an athletic freak he dominated in the NBA, that doesn't work in soccer. Simple as that.
     
  21. custar

    custar Member

    Sep 30, 2007
    Get out of here with that crazy talk. Stick around BigSoccer for a bit, and you will be learned that those kids who are big, strong, and fast with the genetic ability to put on muscle mass as well as develop quick-twitch muscle fibers will never make good soccer players. Those kids who have athletic ability can't be taught technical skills like good first touch or dribbling. Kids with 4.4 speed can't learn to make overlapping runs (even though they can learn to run pass routes), and US soccer is better not even having them around to try to develop into soccer players. There's a lot more to get learned on about these things, but I don't have time to put them all down right now.

    Sarcasm aside, come on guys. Are some of you seriously trying to say that the kids who have world class athleticism cannot be developed into world class soccer players? Not all will, of course, but it is still much better for US soccer to have them in the system rather than losing them at a young age to school-based sports like football and basketball.
     
  22. Roger Allaway

    Roger Allaway Member+

    Apr 22, 2009
    Warminster, Pa.
    Club:
    Philadelphia Union
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    And the better athlete a 10-year-old kid is, the better chance there is of him being able to learn those skills as he gets older.
     
  23. HamsterMan

    HamsterMan New Member

    Jun 2, 2011
    Club:
    Crystal Palace FC
    I think some of you guys are missing the point. There have been many players that have been extremely fast and been good athletes in the game. Look at examples like Cameroon in th U20 World Cup going on, or even someone like Theo Walcott. Got bags of pace but no end finish. Do you think that there would be a change to that if Americas best athletes started playing football (or soccer)? Not to mention America doesnt have a huge influx of great coahces I really doubt it

    Also its pretty much been proven that having a team of big powerful fast players wont do you much good when you actually play a decent side and they pass you off the pitch
     
  24. comoesa

    comoesa Member+

    Aug 13, 2010
    Christen Press's armpit
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I think we would end up like France if our best athletes suited for soccer chose it as their main sport. We would get a Henry once in a while. But we would end up with a lot of fast, strong players, that look good in a skills contest, but whose creativity would be questionable.

    On the issue of Theo Walcott; he is actually a good soccer player. He would be starting in a lot of places just not Arsenal.
     
  25. tjorns1

    tjorns1 New Member

    Jul 30, 2011
    Club:
    Eintracht Frankfurt
    I personally believe very strongly that US with 300 Million people can produce best Soccer players of the World and beat all the Soccer teams of the world and make Soccer Nr. 1 sport in US. BUT if they had proper Coaches around. The only problem is the Coaching Diplomas which I believe Klinsmann will first start to correct.
    In Europe, if the Coach can produce an official Coaching Diploma issued by the State Soccer Association, the Club receives 35% of the Salary they pay the Coach. This forces the clubs to hire Coaches with Diplomas which are recognized. It is not easy to get a Coaching Certificate or Diploma. It takes long time and many practices showing your capability to play Soccer.
    People which does not possess official Soccer Coaching Diplomas by the Soccer Association, are not employed to Coach any age as they might damage the muscles of young people by wrong Training.
    Especially 5-6-7 years old boys or girls needs very experienced Coaches, as the muscles grow they should be compatible with Soccer game.
     

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