Why Do Many Consider This Current Era "weak"?

Discussion in 'Players & Legends' started by laudrup_10, May 4, 2012.

  1. schwuppe

    schwuppe Member+

    Sep 17, 2009
    Club:
    FC Kryvbas Kryvyi Rih
    To be honest I don't really care about Zidane in particular, my concern are you doublstandards regarding Messi/CR and that you pick out single big games they didn't perfom according to you.... which can be done for EVERY player ever and I just used Zidane as an example as he played not too long ago.

    Still we are getting faaaar away from your main point which was:
    My question was - which starts of the past would that be?
     
  2. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    An classic example is Maradona of course. Although he played with good team-mates, almost all creativity depended on him at Napoli.

    A less strong example is that great Milan side of the 80s and early 90s. The injuries of star players was an important reason why they could not win the title in some seasons (88/89 for example). Their depth was simply not that big. This is also well-documented.

    Furthermore, you turn it around. I challenged the double standards of some Zidane bashers who always put up that he wasn't that great in some big games - my reply is that the same can be said about Ronaldo and Messi, to an even greater extent. And yes, the comparison of an player whose career is over with an active player is problematic. But still, even if you only look at the Zidane until the age of 24, it is easy to see what he meant for the national team.
     
  3. Pipiolo

    Pipiolo Member+

    Jul 19, 2008
    Nat'l Team:
    Argentina
    Maradona in WCs 86 and 90 :notworthy:
     
  4. schwuppe

    schwuppe Member+

    Sep 17, 2009
    Club:
    FC Kryvbas Kryvyi Rih
    Amazing.
    So Diego Maradona is the only legit great in the history of football. :)
     
  5. schwuppe

    schwuppe Member+

    Sep 17, 2009
    Club:
    FC Kryvbas Kryvyi Rih
    Haha I called out James for saying something alongside: '06 was the end of the Zidane/Ronaldo era and led to a WEAKER era'.

    I hope you at least remember how good both Zidane and Ronaldo actually were 02 onwards?
     
  6. schwuppe

    schwuppe Member+

    Sep 17, 2009
    Club:
    FC Kryvbas Kryvyi Rih
    You mean contratry to the current Barca side which has no problems winning titles even when Messi has 2-3 bad games?
     
  7. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    Not quite.

    Which creative talents had Juventus besides Platini? And no, it wasn't Boniek.

    And as said before: the so called great Milan side of the late 80s depended to an enormous extent on a few super-talents. That is why they failed to maintain the title in 88/89.

    Ronaldo at Barcelona in 96/97 is another good example.
     
  8. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    Or Real Madrid for that matter.

    That Milan side depended on the two Dutchmen for the creative impulses. Injury of Gullit costed them the 88/89 title, injury of Van Basten costed them the 89/90 one (apart from that controversial card-happy game).

    You can also look at other great teams.

    What was Juventus or France without Platini?

    What was Ajax without Cruijff (hint: look at the 70/71 season where he missed the first nine league games).

    What was Bayern with an out of shape Beckenbauer and/or Müller?

    It is a luxury situation of Barcelona (or Madrid) that they do not depend on one or two creative superstars. It as a situation that everyone wants to have in their dreams.

    That is what I (also) meant with these points:

    Point is: after Messi there is Iniesta, after Iniesta there is Xavi, after Xavi there is Fabregas, after Fabregas there is Sanchez... That creative stacking conceals a lot.

    Milan in 1980s: Van Basten > Gullit and then you had Donadoni and Ancelotti with his crumbling knees to take care of the creativity. Of course, Donadoni was a top 10 winger in the world but the difference is: Barcelona or Madrid can buy the most promising ones like Sanchez. The drop off in quality isn't that big. And yes, that does not make Messi a worse player. True.
     
  9. JamesBH11

    JamesBH11 Member+

    Sep 17, 2004
    In case you and some have suffered a "short memory", let me help:
    - 2002: Ronaldo won both WPOY and Ballon Dor. Zidane was #3 in WPOY
    - 2003: Despite of the disastrous unbalanced galactico team the two alongwith Iker won the liga and were named in TOP3 best WOPY 2003.
    -2004: Ronaldo won Liga topscorer in 04 and BOTH were stil in TOP10 best WPOY 2004.
    - 2005 was the disaster for them , however Ronaldo was still WCQUAL topscorer and led Brazil to be #1 in the group.
    - 2006: Zidane bounced back in WC06 and led France to be in Final. Ronaldo came back ON TIME from injuries (despite of carrying 30 more pounds) he scored 3goals (same as other great strikers in form at time : Henry, Crespo, Torres ...)

    =========================================

    Recap: from 2002-06: they both were still in TOP10 (worldclass) for 3,4 times and only 2005 was their worst ever season ... and at least Ronaldo got some excuses with some nicked injuries as usual!

    Thats' HOW GOOD THEY WERE (in their end career)
     
  10. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    Zidane himself admitted that he wasn't that good between 2003 and 2006. You can search this in google. But hey, he was 31+ years old at that time.

    Indeed, his 2006WC was a nice final breath of him.
     
  11. schwuppe

    schwuppe Member+

    Sep 17, 2009
    Club:
    FC Kryvbas Kryvyi Rih
    And how is that better than either Messi or CR again?

    Like you've said TOP10 Worldclass players sometimes, if we're generous, but nothing alltime worthy.

    CR would have won every single (non WC) WPOY/Ballon D'Or from 2000 - 2009 with any of his three best seasons without people even talking about any other contender. (other than v. Dinho maybe)
     
  12. BocaFan

    BocaFan Member+

    Aug 18, 2003
    Queens, NY
    Alexis has good potential but at the moment he's just a top 10 winger, nothing higher than that.

    Factoring-in Barca's numerous injuries this season, what Guardiola typically had to work with was a thin team. The drop-off from Iniesta to Pedro/Cuenca/Tello is huge! Yet Messi still scored 50 league goals.
     
  13. Pipiolo

    Pipiolo Member+

    Jul 19, 2008
    Nat'l Team:
    Argentina
    Platini had Boniek and Rossi with Juventus, who are at the very least in the same level as Gullit but with a strong WC or two. With France, there was Giresse and Papin.
     
  14. Pipiolo

    Pipiolo Member+

    Jul 19, 2008
    Nat'l Team:
    Argentina
    Also Hagi in WC94 and for Steau Bucarest during their great European run in the 80s.
     
  15. condor11

    condor11 Moderator
    Staff Member

    Apr 2, 2002
    New Zealand
    its your opinion but I disagree with most of what I could understand

    Zidane played with his share of greats (he should always send xmas cards to Thuram)
     
  16. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    It can be argued that he does not play as good as was expected. Still, he was bought for a hefty sum and at Udinese he was certainly one of the most sought-after wingers in the world. All top sides wanted him, Barcelona was not the only one.
     
  17. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    LOL, some have frequently mentioned here that Gullit was at his peak considered as performing better than Maradona ever did. At that time, his absolute peak form was rated very high.

    And no matter how good Rossi was as a striker, he wasn't a creative player. That is the whole point: who had to do the creativity if Platini was not available? To name Rossi is like naming Mario Gomez, with all due respect.

    About Giresse: you have a point and they also had Genghini. Papin is the same story as Rossi.
     
  18. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    What about Henry? Shevchenko? Nedved?

    Especially Henry was a good contender.

    Nedved was in 2003 also very good, he carried the team.

    If you look at the importance that those three players had for their teams, I don't see that much of a difference.
     
  19. schwuppe

    schwuppe Member+

    Sep 17, 2009
    Club:
    FC Kryvbas Kryvyi Rih
    No, look how close 03 & 04 was and how different the WPotY/Ballon D'Or.
    So either there was an extreme amout of outstanding performances or none at all.
     
  20. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    The 'old' Ballon d'Or was basically a poll among journalists while WPotY was a vote among trainers and players.

    With that in mind, it is insightful to look at the 2010 FIFA Ballon d'Or, and the huge difference between what the journalists voted and the trainers/players voted.

    So the calender year 2010 also had an "extreme amount of outstanding performances or none at all"?

    Discrepancies can happen.

    Other than that, there are a few indicators available that support the argument about Nedved being the key player for Juventus in 2002/2003, and the best - or most valuable - player of the Serie A.
     
  21. Pipiolo

    Pipiolo Member+

    Jul 19, 2008
    Nat'l Team:
    Argentina
    Gullit has one incredible seaon, in 87-88, but was not the best player at the Euro that summer. Maradona's peak is WC86, now tell me when Gullit, Cruyff, Van Basten, or any Dutch player has matched that performance?
     
  22. schwuppe

    schwuppe Member+

    Sep 17, 2009
    Club:
    FC Kryvbas Kryvyi Rih
    World Cup year.

    I know you will disagree, but looking at more than 50 years of Ballon d'Or history and 1st placed players in World Cup years might give you a clue which kind of season a player needs to win it without playing a successful WC.
     
  23. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    A yes, Kevin Keegan in 1978 of course.
     
  24. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    Cruijff was certainly near it in 1974. You will disagree, but in this case the Castrol rankings and the 'created chances per match' statistic backs up my point.

    The clarify something else: I do personally think that Boniek was of the same caliber as Gullit but you implied that Boniek was even of a higher class. Plus, you mentioned Rossi, and with all respect for Rossi, he isn't near both by any standards.
     
  25. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    Anyway, schwuppe had the question whether 2003 and 2004 saw many outstanding performances or whether no one was outstanding.

    Two further comments:

    Although statistics are inherently flawed, I think it is difficult to find an Premier League player with better goals+assists stats than Thierry Henry in his peak years for Arsenal. Again, statistics are limited and Henry isn't universally regarded as the best Arsenal player ever, but it is anyhow an indicator of 'being outstanding'. I can't think of another EPL player who had about 20 assists and also 25 goals in a season.



    Secondly, 2003 saw one of the most boring Champions League finals ever. Although Nedved was vital in Juventus their Serie A and CL campaign, he was absent in the final. If -and that is a big if- he had played the final and had won the CL, the margin would've been bigger I guess.
    The other prominent candidates belonged to Real Madrid, the La Liga champion, but Madrid was more or less destroyed by Juventus in the semi-final.
    The topscorer of the 02/03 champions league was Van Nistelrooij but his team was eliminated against Madrid at a relatively early stage, although he did score twice against Madrid. Van Nistelrooij became topscorer and domestic champion, but Henry had almost the same amount of goals as him in the season and far more assists.
    And finally there was Milan with Shevchenko and Maldini. They won the cup, but did it in an unconvincing manner and they failed to win their own league. The Serie A was won by Juventus.

    This taken together, it isn't surprising that you see a discrepancy in the various awards. Because all players and sides had their pros and cons.

    2004 saw Greece as euro winners and FC Porto as Champions League winners, two 'minnows' one might say. It is superfluous to say that this had obviously an effect on the international player awards. It is again not very surprising to see some discrepancies popping up.

    Thierry Henry was statistically outstanding in the Premier League in those two years but somehow his side failed to reach the final stages of the Champions League. Despite some memorable thrashings like the 1:5 against Inter.

    I hope you find this an fair assessment.
     

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