Why can't U.S. fans accept criticism of the team?

Discussion in 'USA Men' started by patt, Sep 6, 2007.

  1. JuanPeron

    JuanPeron Member

    Jul 16, 2005
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    Nat'l Team:
    St. Vincent and the Grenadines
    Random Superstars?
     
  2. jbeall

    jbeall New Member

    Jan 18, 2002
    NJ by way of GA
    Ivory Coast has been a pretty good team for a long time, but it's hard to qualify out of Africa, especially if you get drawn into a group with one of the continent's traditional powers (like Cameroon or Nigeria). But give the Ivory Coast credit, they played well in WC'06 even if they didn't advance; I think we can agree that they were drawn into a pretty tough group.

    But in terms of thinking about which continent--Africa or North America--is better at soccer overall, consider a couple of things.

    1) After the US and Mexico, the rest of the CONCACAF countries have fairly small populations. Some, like Costa Rica, have thrived in spite of that fact. There are also a lot of tiny island nations in CONCACAF--Grenada, anyone?-- who occasionally produce a particularly good footballer, but rarely a good first 11.

    By contrast Africa has a number of countries with larger populations, and since soccer is the most popular game, the best athletes from these countries wind up playing it. The Dominican Republic has some great athletes, but they usually wind up playing baseball.

    2) The African nations that qualify for the WC usually have better coaches than the US (or Mexico, for that matter). I think North American players are better tactically on the club level, but on the int'l level, the African countries hold the edge.

    3) African countries actually care about how their national teams do. Ivory Coast's participation in the WC brought about a cease-fire in their civil war. When the US qualifies for the WC, what are the odds that Sportscenter will devote even ten seconds to the story?
     
  3. DaPrince84

    DaPrince84 Member+

    Aug 22, 2001
    MD
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    Nat'l Team:
    --other--
    this is why your posts hold no weight... lol @ random superstars... does this even make sense?

    what the hell is permanent about the US advancing in 2 outta 5 WCs...

    Nigeria have been to 3 WCs and gotten out of the group stage twice... but that had to be a fluke (and they deserved to be Italy in 1994)

    Ghana has to be a fluke too... I mean that game against the US was obviously a fluke last year... not that Essien and Appiah, and Boateng and Muntari are better than any American field player

    Ivory Coast putting up a respectable showing in their first WC against Argentina (prolly the best team in the WC last year) and the Netherlands was also a fluke

    Africa>CONCACAF... this shouldn't be a debate...

    Ivory Coast>US... but to some Ivory Coast suck in football
     
  4. rockinrodrigo

    rockinrodrigo New Member

    Aug 23, 2007
    truth
     
  5. futgod

    futgod Member+

    Nov 28, 2006
    NorCal
    Club:
    CD Chivas de Guadalajara
    Nat'l Team:
    Mexico
    Nigera
    Ivory Coast
    Ghana
    Cameroon

    I think these countries alone will kill most of Concacaf with the exception of the US and Mexico. Am i biased if I think Mexico would have a better record against those countries than the US?
     
  6. Bob Morocco

    Bob Morocco Member+

    Aug 11, 2003
    Billings, MT
    I think Costa Rica, Canada, and T&T would play them fairly evenly but the Africans would be favored (1-2-1, 1-1-2, 0-2-2) would be the respective records for each team at a neutral venue. For the rest of Concacaf Panama, Jamaica, and Guatemala could maybe get one point. I think Mexico would go 2-2-0 and the US 1-3-0.

    So from 12 points:
    Mexico: 8
    USA: 6
    Costa Rica: 5
    Canada: 4
    T&T: 2
    Panama, Jamaica, and Guatemala: 1

    I'd actually rate Canada around 3.5 points and Costa Rica 4.75 but those aren't possible results.



    Edit: Oh and I'd take the USA 60/40 over Japan because of our vastly superior goalkeeping, better defense, team defense, and athleticism.
     
  7. DaPrince84

    DaPrince84 Member+

    Aug 22, 2001
    MD
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    Nat'l Team:
    --other--
    better record does not equal winning record... u can also include Egypt and Senegal, and even Morocco to that list also...

    I think the Japanese are better coached and technically better, and too quick for our defendera... but the keeper point is true... I think its close but the Japanese would beat us
     
  8. hairynippleman

    Jun 13, 2007
    you're sad...
     
  9. hairynippleman

    Jun 13, 2007
    american soccer fans on a whole are very dillusional about the usmnt. the program is getting better...it's obvious. the players being produced now are are much better than those being produced 20 years ago. at the same time ther are countries with much less money and a much smaller player pool that fair just as good or better than the usmnt at this time. for the amount of money, time and effort being placed in the national team program the final product is a dissapointment. and the fact that people make statements like the usmnt is a world class side or that america produces world class players (and there are many posts on this board and it also comes from the powers that be in ussf and the mls) is laughable. the number of guys dubbed as the future of american soccer, poised and ready to take the usmnt to the next level is beyond high and they inevitably fail to live up to unrealistic and ignorant expectations.

    american soccer fans, on this board at least, see the usmnt as better than it is for two reasons...

    1. the team has become a source of personal pride. they see the team as a way to show national pride. the players and coaches associated with the team are infallable and are beyond criticim.

    2. the typical american soccer fan, soccer player and soccer coach actually know very little about the game. quality coaches and youth clubs that teach young people how to play the game properly are few and far between in america. if you are involved and play for a competitve team with a club like the nomads, irvine soccer club, chicago magic, or scott gallagher chances are you will learn a good deal about the game. even then, and i don't know how it is in the clubs listed above(i know they produce good players and good teams), but in some competitive youth clubs doc's and trainers are concerned more with money and building a clubs income than with player development. but for the most part, american youth soccer players play for small clubs in small towns coached by little johnny's dad who used to play high school soccer back in the '70's. stupid youth soccer players grow up to become stupid adult soccer fans...put them all together on the internet and you get bigsoccer.
     
  10. Big balls

    Big balls Member

    May 22, 2006
    Sweden
    Originally Posted by FirstStar
    "You'd get a lot of respect talking shit before a match with the US if you'd actually support your own team- it's sporting. But to come here and stab your own side in the back like this is lower than craven. Get the hell out of here.

    Support your team or get the hell out of here. If you're not here to talk up Sweden, you're just trolling and being a typical, third-rate world (non)-power, statist over-taxed and underproductive Saab-driving Swede. "



    The above comment that I've quoted are two responses that I've merged

    It's a response to me when I posted that I believed that the U.S would beat Sweden at home (which Sweden won) since Sweden has about 3 wins in 15 friendlies. Anyone could look up the stats, my take on it might not be pin-point accurate but I can't bother to google and the stats are beyond horrible for friendlies.

    Several times I've spoken to Americans, they get angry towards criticism, and they get angry when people such as I myself point out the weaknesses of my own team (I have several more posts to quote if needed). This is something I can't understand. I have absolutely no doubt that Sweden is better than the U.S and Sweden has a top-class side, but so what. If Sweden plays horribly against nations that doesn't even have democracy, why should we steamroll the U.S


    I think First star summed it up perfectly, and I quote.....

    "Support your team or get the hell out of here. If you're not here to talk up Sweden, you're just trolling"

    The idea of supporting your team blindly or otherwise you're a troll. That's the kind of attitude I've met from several U.S supporters. Obviously it's not all supporters but it's something I've never encountered from any other nation. To me, Americans just get angry about anything. I might criticize my own team, I might criticize the U.S (which I have) and they get riled up.
     
  11. Bob Morocco

    Bob Morocco Member+

    Aug 11, 2003
    Billings, MT
    From what I've seen most of the best posters no longer post on the USA boards because there is a neverending stream of new idiots.
     
  12. ECUNCHATER

    ECUNCHATER Member

    Sep 30, 1999
    How does the top person in the USSF get fired?

    Anyway, like other people said, you have to take what your country gives you. You can't just go out and buy 11 of the best players in the world and go win a World Cup. If we got a whole European coaching staff and European USSF president, nothing would change. We would still have trouble winning against the top teams in CONMEBOL and UEFA.
     
  13. FnordUnitedFC

    FnordUnitedFC Member

    Jun 22, 2006
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I think it is obvious there are far more talented players in Africa than in CONCACAF, but as far as teams go, the only level playing field has been the World Cup, and the results just don't back up the claim that CAF is somehow superior.

    WC results since 1990 - CONCACAF / CAF

    Italia 1990
    CONCACAF - Entries 2 - Advanced to second round 1 (Costa Rica)
    CAF - Entries 2 - Advanced to second round 1 (Cameroon)

    USA 1994
    CONCACAF - 2 entered - 2 advanced (USA/Mexico)
    CAF - 3 entered - 1 advanced (Nigeria)

    France 1998
    CONCACAF - 3 entered - 1 advanced (Mexico)
    CAF - 5 entered - 1 advanced (Nigeria)

    Japan/Korea 2002
    CONCACAF 3 entered - 2 advanced (USA/Mexico)
    CAF - 5 entered - 1 advanced (Senegal)

    Germany 2006
    CONCACAF 4 entered - 1 advanced (Mexico)
    CAF - 5 entered - 1 advanced (Ghana)

    Total for the past FIVE world cups:
    CONCACAF - 14 entered - 7 advanced (50%) (Mexico 4, USA 2)
    CAF - 20 entered - 5 advanced (25%) (Nigeria 2)

    I don't see how Africa has lit the world stage up. Yes there is more talent there, but they just don't produce the results. There can't be a continent more overhyped on a team level than Africa. Only Nigeria has managed to get out of the first round twice since 1990 from Africa, something both the USA and Mexico (an impressive 4 times) have done.

    There is talent spread throughout Africa, but there is no consistency from any team in the region, and no consistency from the region in the World Cup (unless you call exactly 1 team advancing every single time consistent, which I suppose it is).

    The great African revival started by Cameroon in 1990 never materialized, and yes the American federation is screwed up in a lot of ways, but let's not point to the CAF nations as bastion of efficiency and results on a world stage, because the matches don't lie, and Africa has failed to flatter on the world's largest stage for the past two decades.
     
  14. hairynippleman

    Jun 13, 2007
    i think at the concacaf has a better top two than caf in mexico and the usa. however, if you were to look at the top five teams in each region i think after the top two the caf has better teams. i think they have a deeper pool of talent whereas the concacaf is just mexico and america (sometimes). i think they also do alot more with the money and resources they have. seriously, africa, with the exception of a few countries, is a war torn continent in economic ruins. and even the countries not war torn or in economic ruins certainly do not have access to the same resources to prepare a national soccer program like the united states.
     
  15. Thomas A Fina

    Thomas A Fina Member

    Mar 29, 1999
    Hell
    Club:
    New York Red Bulls
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    IOW, rather than a pipeline of talent keeping a team consistently in the hunt, the presence of some superstar thrown up seemingly at random pushing a team up to heights, only for that team to fall right back down when said superstar loses his skills.

    the textbook example being Bulgaria in 1994 with Stoichkov. The 1996 Euro winners Denmark with Schmeichel also come to mind. It remains to be seen if the Ivory Coast ends up being Drogba and the ten dwarfs or if they can keep this up once he leaves.

    yes, I am kind of scared I knew exactly what superdave meant.

    Africa > CONCACAF. The US and Mexico would qualify out of there more often than not, but after that it's not even close.


    As for the subject of this thread - If you are taking bigsoccer as representative of US Soccer at large, then I don't know what to tell you. It's really not that we're uncritical of the team, it's we don't like idiotic criticisms of the team. Rationality should have a place in this discourse. It neevr does. Shockingly, it keeps the rational people away from the US threads
     
  16. Galaxian

    Galaxian Member

    Oct 30, 2005
    Newport Beach, CA
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I know it was just a friendly, but a weak US squad in february of 06 dominated a fairly strong Japanese squad.

    The final scoreline was 3-2, as Japan scored two goals after we have made all six of our subs, and late the goals came very late after we were cruising 3-0 .

    Yes its not a full international, but this whole technical and quickness crap has no support in your argument, because our '' slow and untechnical '' players, dominated those quick, technically sounds Japanese.
     
  17. DaPrince84

    DaPrince84 Member+

    Aug 22, 2001
    MD
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    Nat'l Team:
    --other--
    except the Ivory Coast is not just Drogba... that is what is infuriating many posters here... The Toure (Kolo and Yaya), Didier Zokora, Saloman Kalou, Eboue, Arouna kone... this is not a fluke... these guys are all in their early to mid 20s and play for Big Clubs (except for Zokora, Spurs are not a Big Club, lol)... the Abidjan Academy is the envy of all of Africa as most of these players have come through there...

    and they beat Serbia last year in the WC without Drogba who was suspended
     
  18. Mahtzo1

    Mahtzo1 Member+

    Jan 15, 2007
    So Cal
    While I don't know that much about the soccer in the ivory coast or japan, I will, against my better judgement, chime in. Some of the following you may dismiss as the nonsensical ramblings of someone who doesn't know anybetter.

    Ivory Coast?
    Japan?
    USA?
    (Advantages & disadvantages over the usa.)


    Ivory Coast, (and much/most of Africa.)
    Disadvantages (some)
    1. War and a lack of unity along with all of the other wonderful things that go with it one group of people killing another.
    2. Population Size
    3. Poverty
    4. Disorganization

    Advantages (some)
    1. Higher percentage of population plays soccer from time they can walk.
    2. ?

    Japan
    Disadvantages (some)
    1. population size
    2. ??? (I don't know that much about japanese soccer!)

    Advantages (some)
    1. Money that is put into J-League. (among other things, it has given the Japanese players, that are not playing in europe, a quality league.
    2. J-League
    3. ??? (do a higher % of population play soccer?)
    4. ???

    Some of our (USA) advantages:
    1. Population size
    2. Money

    Disadvantages:
    1. No matter what people want to believe, money cant create skill/technique. (this means people have to be more patient)
    2.

    I remember several things that I think put our team in a little bit better perspective:

    1. 1985? Our players were college students. USA vs Costa Rica (played at El Camino JUNIOR COLLEGE)...Capacity about 5-6K? No trouble getting tickets...Fans mostly costa rican or latino rooting against US. We lost. It was not an upset (I don't think). We didnt go to the WC and nobody really seemed to care or know about it.

    2. I remember the quality of play when I was 16 (1976) and remember comparing that to the level of skill that 15-18 yr olds playing on club teams about 15 years ago (approx 1992) (current veteran players in mls etc) had at the time and believing that we would probably be dark horses in a world cup by about 2002. (While we did well in 2002, I think that my prediction was a little premature....maybe 2010?)

    3. Ask yourself (if you are 25 or older) is the general quality of play (especilly skill/techniques) among the current 16-18 yr olds that you see in the park etc better than it was when you were that age?

    4. I'll stop now

    Louis
     
  19. rochester rhinos

    rochester rhinos New Member

    Aug 10, 2007
    under a pipal tree
    There are two types of US fans the ones who think were playing at little bit of a higher level than we are(whis is me]and the doomsday fan who gets frustrated and litterally thinks that the team is falling apart when we get dominated for Possesion against Zlatan and sweden in Gotheburg
     
  20. KennyWoo

    KennyWoo Member

    May 21, 2007
    Pasadena, California
    Club:
    Los Angeles Galaxy
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Really a tremendous assemblage of talent for Ivory Coast - so why so little achievement? They only qualified for the 2006 WC through the backdoor after Cameroon choked on the last day of qualifying with a 1-1 draw at home against an Egypt team w/ nothing to play for. A Cameroon win (they did the double over CIV in qualifying) and CIV stays home.

    Also, as I've noted before, the win over Serbia means **** all - if two eliminated teams show up for a game, one of whom (Serbia) had just lost a match 6-0, it's like a tree dropping in a forest w/ nobody around to hear it. It's a nice consolation prize, a nice story, but the match amounted to a neutral-soil friendly.
     
  21. futgod

    futgod Member+

    Nov 28, 2006
    NorCal
    Club:
    CD Chivas de Guadalajara
    Nat'l Team:
    Mexico
    Its called self respect or having pride. This is the world cup and nobody wants to go home without atleast winning one game. Both teams knew they had ********ed up and needed to atleast come out with a win in the last game, and keep some of their national pride.
     
  22. superdave

    superdave Member+

    Jul 14, 1999
    VB, VA
    Club:
    DC United
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    We'll see.
     
  23. DaPrince84

    DaPrince84 Member+

    Aug 22, 2001
    MD
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    Nat'l Team:
    --other--
    do you not pay attention to world soccer?

    Kolo Toure=Near World Class center half
    Yaya Toure= If Barca wins trophies this season, he will be the reason why
    Salomon Kalou=Future of Chelsea
    Arouna Kone= star at PSV and sold for 20 million dollars to Sevilla

    if you think its Drogba alone then you need to watch more soccer...
     
  24. superdave

    superdave Member+

    Jul 14, 1999
    VB, VA
    Club:
    DC United
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    We'll see. They can start impressing me by making their SECOND ever World Cup (a landmark the US reached 73 years ago.)
     
  25. rochester rhinos

    rochester rhinos New Member

    Aug 10, 2007
    under a pipal tree
    If we played Ivory Coast in a neutral site we would lose if we played them in the USA we would still loseJapan would not be favorites over us in any competitions..The USA can beat teams out of home soil.It just dosent happen alot.I believe we are on a par with teams like Colombia, Japan, Austria South Korea, and a Finland maybe
     

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