I mentioned this idea in the thread I made about the CCL and TFC's chances of joining. I agree 100%, a UEFA cup for the losers of CONCACAF would be exciting and also provide even more football for us all to watch. Great post as always.
The point I was trying to make here was that Toronto has a VERY European population base...I am used to football and leagues being played a certain way, and to me North American sport is very complicated. The original question in this thread is asking why so many T.O football fans are so anti TFC...and I'm attempting to answer why this is. *I* think its because its inaccessible to the vast majority of European based (expat) football fans who are used to "their" football being played a certain way, and a certain normality of league and scheduling. To me, having two leagues, yet play-off spots for the top 8, but not necessarily from the same division, is already too complicated, and even for me, a dedicated and almost obsessive football fan, I lose the plot with MLS!
Fair enough - to me neither European or North American league setup are particularly difficult to grasp. Especially compared to things like string theory and integral calculus etc. I'd say it has as much to do with stubborn fans not liking anything *different* or of perceived lesser quality as much as league setup and playoff seeding IMHO.
Maybe it's the terms used which are complicated. MLS is one LEAGUE, divided into two CONFERENCES. There are no such thing as DIVISIONS and it probably doesn't help that we North Americans typically use them interchangeably because we know what we mean. For contrast, the NHL has all three: a league divided into two conferences, each with three divisions.
fair enough.....but you are preaching to the converted here, as I *do* love TFC, and am growing to love the MLS more and more. I just think the conferences and the overall makup of the competition that is the MLS is one of the many reasons why other people DON'T like either TFC or the MLS.
Different sports have different terminologies and ways of doing things and most sports fans have no trouble at all understanding each sport they follow. These North America vs Europe arguments are in my opinion, silly. What's a good idea and what is not should be judged on its own merit, not based on this continental nationalism that seems to be so popular. That said, I don't mind the playoff format, so long as they keep each round to a single game rather than these 7 game series we see in hockey and other sports that make it all so painfully tedious.
When i first came to work/live here I found the whole concept of play offs baffling...however, after my first experience I was hooked to see how the competition gets even more fierce between two clubs. Was lucky enough to see the Leafs get quite far then dumped unfortunately...i may be wrong but think it was 2002. I think what anyone outside NA struggles with is the fact theres no "glory and pain" ie you win the ultimate cos you are the best and proven it throughout the entire season or you actually get relegated to a lower league..which is utterly demoralising and sometimes financially crippling to a club. In NA there doesnt appear to be the same stakes apart from winning that is. Half the time, the biggest games at the end of the season are the clubs playing their hearts out to stay up...and if that can impact someone winning the league then even the better. It would be a very boring place if we all did the things the same way so carry on with the play offs, and lets think all those positive vibes that we can do it this season...please!!
I don't know about you guys, but I love the playoffs and I don't see the big deal is when comes to having conferences. And I hope MLS doesn't get rid of playoffs and/or conferences. Keep it Canadian/North American!
As mentioned, playoffs are a cultural thing. Basically, North Americans think it's crazy not to have then; Europeans can't understand why you would. And, there are pros and cons to both models. The no playoff model rewards consistent excellence and it is likely the team with the most talent wins. However, more than half of the teams are realistically eliminated from championship possibilities before the season even starts, and all-but 2-3 are typically out of it within a couple months. North Americans can't wrap their head around the idea that a championship can be decided weeks before the season is actually over. In the playoff model, teams must prove themselves at a predetermined date. The North American mindset believes that true champions are able to rise to the challenge. Playoff games are played at an intensity level that is higher than can be maintained game in, game out throughout a regular season. Therefore, to the North American, the playoffs are the better test of a team's worth. Also, teams are able to recover from a bad spell to ultimately win a championship and there is a greater chance for an underdog to win it all--thus giving hope to fans of even the smallest teams. However, a playoff system can reward a team for coasting throughout the regular season, and therefore makes regular games nothing but glorified friendlies. To me, too many teams make the playoffs in the North American system, and too few teams have a chance in the European system. Who might have the balance perfect are the Aussies (although it's hard to say with football as their league is so small). By allowing a few teams to playoff after the season to determine the champion, but not too many, you have the best of both worlds. Especially when you use a form of a page system-- 1 v 2 in a "major" semi, 3 v 4 in a "minor". Winner of major advances to final, while loser of major gets a second chance against winner of minor (minor loser is eliminated) to play into the final. If you had a system like that in MLS you would avoid a situation like the Galaxy winning a few years ago, but you still would have had several teams fighting for positioning down the stretch (in this year's A-League the four playoff teams were separated by one point heading into the final week. The team that was in first heading in ended up in fourth because it lost while two of the others won and the third team drew). If the same system was in place in England (open your mind for a second Euro boys) you would still have 10 teams this year with a realistic shot at winning the championship, but the odds would still be heavily on one of the top two teams. Here's how it would play out if the season ended today: Arsenal would play Man U in a home and home in the major semi, with Chelsea playing upstart Everton, who edges Liverpool out of the playoff spot by a single point, in the minor. You are guaranteed that one of Man U or Arsenal are in the final, with the other having two shots to get there. Many years, you would see a battle to the death amongst the big four teams, but every so often a team like Everton would find its way into the playoffs--by earning its way through an outstanding season. It wouldn't be like Bolton could get hot at the right time and bunker its way to a title... And, could you bloody imagine how incredible those playoff games would be to watch....
One thing should be pointed out though, that the playoff concept is not unique in general to North America, only in terms of footy. European hockey leagues, for example have playoff series to determine league champion at end of season. Again, screw geography. It's how well things work that matters. Playoffs work, so we do it. I would scrap conferences though.
And I think that proves the confussion! Leagues? conferences? divisions? tractors? hedgehog? man nipple? I dunno!
I think it's inevitable that a merge between MLS and USL will come. It will probably be a while though.
To add to your point, the Mexican and Australian soccer leagues also have playoffs. Again, largely due to geography. The one benefit of the conferences is to cut down on the amount of travelling a team has to do, so I'm ok with it for now. But once the league hits about 18-20 teams I'd like to see them do away with the conferences and just have each team play each of the others home and away.
Nice thread. A few quick thoughts before I hop on my plane. MLS will absorb USL cities before they merge. There will be no merger. Only a couple of teams have the resources to make the jump now. Both, Canadian squads. The gulf in money otherwise is huge, and growing yearly. Always remeber how young the league is, and all of the huge hurdles/competition/bias it faces. It's actually quite impressive that it is catching on. The chap who said, "maybe MLS will learn a lesson on where to buid it's stadium's (downtown locations)." If you have the pull and abiltiy I bet MLS has a seven figure job waiting for you my friend. The stadiums are where they are because these are the only locales who were willing to build one, and take a risk on soccer. Even when MLS wants to foot the whole bill there are few takers. The lesson is that the game is very, very young, has a lot of doubters and detractors at high levels, and many others would do anything to see it go away. To imply that MLS could have built these stadiums in urban centers and chose not to is ignorance at a high level. Look at DC. They still aren't even close to a stadium, have been jerked around and are the biggest money loser in MLS bar none (several mill a year) since RBNY is getting their stadium. Do you want a league or do you want the league to go out of business? That is the question. That is changing with time. Slowly but surely. I take great pride seeing the game I playerd as kid 35 years ago, that wa mocked and ridicluled as a joke, communist sport, sissy sport, un American and dangerous by some to finally grab a foothold. I take joy in seeing the victories and changes for the better. We can actually watch history being made now. We can be a part of th eactual buiding. For me, that is something special. The respect the game gets now is 1000 fold more than it got 20 years ago. ROme was not built in a day. Neither wa the British Empire. We are watching the very beginnings of soemthing special. Enjoy it. Note - Why is it always ignored that TFC's stadium was built there because there was a stadium there previoulsy and there was, you know, actual freaking land available? Why is it ignored that if it wasn't for the U20 WC and the potential embarrassment of not having a new stadium there, after it was promised (part of the reason Canada got the cup plus funds from FIFA also I believe) that Canada and Toronto would have really looked horrific? Without that deadline and the rush, rush attitude it put into the gov't, local and federal to avoid embarrassment, it's very possible there is still no new TFC stadium. Just a thought. IOW's - it ain't easy folks. The league is doing incredible from a big business view point, with all the odds against it. Fact, and just improving. In 20 years when it is all you dream you can tell your kids - "I remember when, etc, etc, etc...
Maybe the anti-TFC impression is just a reflection of people being impatient and expecting instant success. How long did it take the Blue Jays and the Raptors to get competitive after they started up (rhetorical question)? I for one am glad to finally have a pro soccer team to be able to watch in my own city. Success on the pitch will come but as with many things in life, it takes time and hard work...after all that, the success will feel so much sweeter.
Very true. I think that there are a number of soccer fans who are used to supporting only the top teams - the ManUs, the Chelseas, etc. and are used to seeing their team at or near the top year after year. A number of people are expecting TFC to make it in the playoffs for 2008 and considering anything less to be a failure. I'm certainly hoping that TFC will be in the playoffs this year and I do think that it is possible, but it's not going to be as easy as people think. Chivas didn't make it in to the playoffs until their third year - and that was with 2 less teams in the league. RSL has never made it into the playoffs. To expect TFC to be a playoff team in only their second year may be expecting too much too early. Regardless, I have no plans of abandoning my team regardless of where they finish in the standings this year.