The website 4dfoot translated some video (2008) [starting at 1:35] "Everything is about meters, that's all." Of course, it is the art of defending sized down to a few sentences but it is this view about 'meters' that helps to explain the relative difficulties of the positions. Given his size Messi is actually also a good defender in the sense of pressing and stealing the ball (that is: esp. a few years ago). The agility and strength also helps. Of course, size makes sure that someone like him will never placed at the back. Some of the greatest teams ever started with the principle that the forwards and attacking midfielders are the first line of defence, and can be the most important one. For example: the Milan of the 80s and 90s. In the past, when sweepers were still schooled in youth programmes, those played in midfield to increase their handling speed. If you look at some of the so called greatest defenders ever, it is clear. Baresi: for the Italian national team he played as midfielder when Scirea was still around, even at the 1986WC. Moore: originally a wing-half Scirea: originally a forward Figueroa: think he started as midfielder as well etc.
Agreed with your thoughts on Messi, though would say that there have been notable quality defenders (esp. FBs) that aren't much taller than him. Jordi Alba, Philip Lahm are only 1cm taller, Roberto Carlos is 1cm shorter. The decisive reason why Messi isn't a def is not his height.
Positioning and sense for rhythm also matters for defenders of course. In itself those tiny defenders aren't/weren't awesome defenders I'd say, who can shut down any attacker.
That's just your opinion, and I think you're overrating the forwards. Forwards were not the story in the last 2 world cups. Defense and Spain's midfield dominated. Forlan's 3 lucky/deflected goals does not trump Xavi/Iniesta's ability to totally take-over matches. I just find it funny that you had to go back to the 1970s to find a team whose most skilled player wasn't a forward. Spain 2008-13 says 'hi'.
[I've pointed this out before: Bobby Moore did sometimes play as the "orthodox"-type of W-H during the very early part os his senior club career w/WHU (the position that you seem to intend, Puck). W/WHU and England Moore is best known for lining -up as the "deep-lying"-type of W-H; which was much like a de facto 4th defender...]
hi what? was NOT Xavi + Torres best Spain 08, Iniesta+ Villa best Spain10? They were ALWAYS attackers ( and PLEEEEEZ do not say Xavi is a DM)
Spain will be remembered for their midfielders and the team that could win everything without a true striker. I never heard anyone say Villa is the best player or most talented player on Spain. And Iniesta is a midfielder first and foremost. In 2008 it was Senna + Xavi. lol Torres?? WTF?
Defenders are criminally underrated. Attackers can have a poor match and one moment of brilliance they receive all the accolades and their poor match is forgotten. A defender has a great match one poor mistake and they receive harsh criticism. The line between an excellent match and a poor match is thin regarding defenders. Forwards have it better. Also if a defender gets the better of an attacker; they always claim the attacker had a poor match usually not crediting the defensive performance by the defender. If an attacker gets the better of the defender, people quick to label the defender poor and they have been exposed and so on. Example, Ronaldo and Messi are two of the greatest players of all times, yet Ashley Cole has had the better of both players when they matched up especially against Ronaldo. Yet no one ever talks about him being a great for example. How about Chelsea’s defence of 04-05 only conceding 15 goals in the league, I would say this achievement is good as Arsenal’s unbeaten season. People talk about Brazil’s 2002 attacking ability. How about Italy’s defensive performance in 2006, only conceding two goals an own goal and a penalty. Such an underrated achievement, Don’t get me started on the Ballon D’or. They might as well name it attacking world player of the year award. They should split this award forward/attacking player of the year and defensive player of the year award.
^ They have the Hart Memorial and Conn Smythe awards for the MVPs of the regular season and the play-offs.
so what? who was the best player at that tournament? Xavi and Torres was the best FW there Euro08. who was best player for Spain Wc2010:? David Villa (anotehr attacker)
It doesn't matter at what age. The fact is that it happens. I agree that defenders and attackers have different skill sets, but I disagree that the basic skills of a defensive player would allow him to play better in attack, than an attacking player playing in defense. Many modern fullbacks are actually converted wingers. But none of the modern or classic wingers are converted fullbacks.
Boca, Iniesta and Xavi are midfielders.....attacking midfielders. And particularly for Spain both play in more advanced positions than they do for Barca usually. Everyone knows that they are the two key players for Spain's success, if we are to pinpoint specific individuals. That's not to say that others haven't contributed, like Casillas, Puyol, Ramos, Pique, Senna, Busquets, Villa and Torres. In 2008, Xavi was Spain's best player and he was voted the best player of the Euro. In 2010, Iniesta and Villa were Spain's best players. (Forlan was voted player of the tournament) In 2012, Iniesta was again their best player and player of the tournament. So I don't understand what point are you trying to make with Spain and their players to James.
I know history is full of examples like that. There are probably many that I don't know of in addition to the ones I do know about. IMO, it is easier to take an attacking player and teach him to defend, than it is to take a defensive player and teach him to attack. That's why when working with very young youth players, you first teach them to attack, then to defend or first attacking skills and then defensive skills.
My point is very simple. James said if we look at thousands of teams, the best player on "99.99%" of them would be attackers. So I'm pointing out that the 2 last WC champs didn't have as their best player an attacker. Xavi is not an attacker by any stretch of the imagination. Okay, maybe when James said "attackers" he includes attacking midfielders. So that maybe covers Iniesta (even though he is rarely directly involved in goals), but not Xavi. This will cause us to go around in circles. The whole thread is about overrated/underrated players. So as soon as you bring up who was voted best player, you miss the point. Of course attackers will get voted best player. Because they are overrated.
The discussion who's the better or most accurately, who's the most beloved player: the offensive or the deffensive ones, could be quite obvious for some people. I see more relate to which player used to get a deeply emotion and respect in the eyes observers or colleagues. For example, the ofensive players in the mould of Pele, Maradona or Cruijff are seing as true artists in the game, able to did the unexpected, the imposible for common mortals. Also, some defenders touch people's emotion with an heroic defending. Also there were the artistics type, but few ones. I think it is more usual see the artistic/extraordinary type of players in the ofensive group.
Not to be annoying but, It doesn't explain why the highest transfer sums are paid for midfielders and attackers. Of course, popularity among the fans also plays a part here too; buying Beckham meant an enormous increase in selling shirts, which in turn alleviated his market value (because of the economic returns he represented, without even kicking a ball!). So in some way market value is related to personality and charisma a player represents. But mostly clubs want to win games, and (only) care about winning. They want to have the best players for that mission, and often they do not care about the 'magic' a team or the artistry a player represents. If you can buy players with an added value for a undervalued price, it gives a competitive edge. Fans of the clubs often do not care about the way their club wins either, if they win it is fine. Why are defenders (and goalkeepers) also underrated on the transfer market?
I agree, mate, esp. in the last 2 decades (the way you tell). That is another point (i think it was discused yet), a point more "terrestrial" or objective, if you want. The matches are winning with goals, and obviously the ofensive players will give you that. At least, you want to win with a penalty definition
Ok, perhaps James meant attacking players. The last 2 WC champions are Spain and Italy. Iniesta was Spain's best player (or perhaps Villa), while Cannavaro was Italy's best player. He even won FIFA's WPOTY award because of his WC performances. Do you remember how posters here react to that? Both Iniesta and Xavi are attacking midfielders for Spain. You don't think Forlan was the best player at the last WC? If not, who was then?
if you are on offense you are in control of the ball, if you're on defense you're trying to control it. I think that's what he meant. I don't think he meant it as literal trapping ability/ ball control. Although in his words hes implying that offense does have better ball control because they are in possession of it.
*sigh* I'm talking in general terms. Xavi was Spain's best player (until about 2012 probably). I guess in certain formations that Spain use, he can be classified as AM on paper, but then there are other formations when that's really a stretch. For starters, Forlan wasn't even the best forward on his team in WC 2010. But its irrelevant in this context because Uruguay is certainly a team whose best player is an attacker, whether that be Cavani, Forlan or Suarez.