Who's next?

Discussion in 'MLS: Expansion' started by Sport Billy, Jan 15, 2019.

  1. owian

    owian Member+

    Liverpool FC, San Diego Loyal
    May 17, 2002
    San Diego
    Club:
    Liverpool FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Do you know how much land would cost in lower Manhattan? So there is NO expectation that any New York Franchise is going to have a downtown venue. If we expand out to anywhere within the 5 boroughs and your still dealing with some of the most expensive property in the United States. So that's reason number 1.

    Reason number 2, as other posters have pointed out, MLS has wanted a second franchise in New York for years, and the chance to get in a rich owner like Sheikh Mansour, as well as the Yankee organization, specifically the Y.E.S network, was to good to pass up. Even if it meant playing in a less than ideal, although iconic, stadium.
     
  2. canammj

    canammj Member+

    Aug 25, 2004
    CHINO, CA
    Club:
    Los Angeles Galaxy
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Wow, thanks for all the input on Busch and the dome. My only time in St Louis I went to the US vs. El Salvador World Cup Qualifier in 1989, the 0-0 game, the game before Paul Caligiuri's famous goal down in T&T. Really weird, after that game, I came back later in the evening and watched Notre Dame and the Evansville Purple Aces play in some conference (playoff?) game. Could the Soccer Park add enough seats on a temp basis (like Sacto's Papa Murphy)?
    Are there any other options in St Louis or we just better off getting their new SSS built first?
     
  3. DCW531

    DCW531 Member

    City SC
    Jan 31, 2017
    St. Louis, MO
    Just my opinion, but ...
    Yes they could add seats, Currently no seating along end lines. might be able to get to around 10k seats. However, there are other issues at soccer park: limited parking, limited road access (pretty much a single way in and out). Also, field is turf, not grass, because it's prone to spring flooding issues. Off the top of my head, thinking 3 of the last 5 years or so have seen games postponed because of this.

    St Louis University is just down the street from the proposed stadium site, but only seats about 5k, Not sure what other local colleges like SIUE or Lindenwood seat anymore, nothing else comes to mind.
     
  4. DCW531

    DCW531 Member

    City SC
    Jan 31, 2017
    St. Louis, MO
  5. Lothsor

    Lothsor Red Card

    Oct 19, 2018
    So Sheik Mansour and the Steinbrenner family can't afford to buy the land?

    I find that hard to believe.

    Look MLS wanted another team in NY - I get it.

    Did they expect to get a deal on the land?

    Even if they played in Brooklyn I am sure the Yankees and MCFC can afford it.
     
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  6. Lothsor

    Lothsor Red Card

    Oct 19, 2018
    You have not shown the math of the Dome's dimensions.

    You showed a picture.

    You also haven't answered the question if the Dome floor is. Big enough - why haven't more games been played the Rest?
     
  7. owian

    owian Member+

    Liverpool FC, San Diego Loyal
    May 17, 2002
    San Diego
    Club:
    Liverpool FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Probably could but that wasn't the point. You asked why NYCFC gets to play in a baseball stadium and everyone else has to have a shovel ready SSS before they are admitted. And I answered it, it's all about the owner and the market.
     
  8. Lothsor

    Lothsor Red Card

    Oct 19, 2018
    I understand that.

    But after four years don't you think NYCFC should have a SSS stadium?

    MLS is not holding them accountable like they are other franchises.

    Once NYCFC builds their SSS (if they ever do) there will be no need to hold them accountable.
     
  9. newtex

    newtex Member+

    May 25, 2005
    Houston
    Club:
    Houston Dynamo
    MLS is not some separate entity. MLS is the Investor-Operators. So when you say MLS is not holding them accountable that means the other owners are not holding them accountable. Think about why that might be.

    It is easy to say MLS should do this or that. What you should really be saying is that Kraft, Blank, Hauptman, McGuire, Brener, Paulson, Hanson, Maple Leaf Sports and Entertainment, Kroenke, the Hunts, Precourt, etc should be telling City Football Group what to do.
     
  10. Lothsor

    Lothsor Red Card

    Oct 19, 2018
    I have no idea why the Investors-Operators aren't holding them accountable. To me it shows a lack of credibility.

    When the Investor-Operators are demanding a downtown SSS of expansion cities and they aren't holding current teams to that standard is hypocritical.

    If MLS is such a good investment and so many people want to get involved (which many tried to make the case for earlier in this thread) then if they held the owners of NYCFC to say ok you either build a SSS within X amount of years or you are out - it should be no problem to find replacement Investor-Operators for the Yankees and MCFC.

    You mentioned Bob Kraft and New England. The owners should go to Kraft and as look you need a SSS within X amount of years, if not you are out. If MLS is such a good investment then there should be no problem finding an owner to replace Kraft or the Steinbrenner's and Sheik Mansour.
     
  11. newtex

    newtex Member+

    May 25, 2005
    Houston
    Club:
    Houston Dynamo
    You don't know why the owners would be reluctant to tell one of the other owners: do this or we'll replace you? That seems pretty unlikely since they know that could be turned on any one of them at any time. It can happen if the owners think that an owner is detrimental to the league but it is not a power that they are going use very often.

    BTW, how is that a lack of credibility? The recent expansion owners have bought into a system where they understand how things work. People do want to get into MLS but that will slow way down if the owners start kicking other owners out. NYCFC got their deal with MLS in 2015. Since then I believe 7 new owners have bought a share of the league knowing about that NYCFC deal. There are groups in other cities looking to be new I/Os. They know the situation. The owners don't just wake up one morning and say, "Hey, the Revs don't a soccer stadium! We better do something about that."
     
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  12. Lothsor

    Lothsor Red Card

    Oct 19, 2018
    So current MLS owners don't want to hold other MLS owners accountable because they might be held accountable?

    Doesn't seem like a principaled lot does it.

    Why wouldn't people want to get in if there aren't any rules?

    MLS doesn't want to play in a Dome except Arthur Blank and Atlanta United get to. Why? Because we said so. Also because the Whitecaps have been doing it as well.

    MLS doesn't want teams to play in an NFL stadium yet Seattle, New England and oh yeah Atlanta are doing it.

    SSS's need to be downtown except for Chicago, Colorado, Columbus, Dallas and Kansas City. Why? Because we said so.

    It is a lack of credibility because the league isn't consistent.
     
  13. TheRealBilbo

    TheRealBilbo Member+

    Apr 5, 2016
    Columbus' new stadium will be quite downtown.

    Austin on the other hand won't be. You must have them confused. It's common around here.
     
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  14. Lothsor

    Lothsor Red Card

    Oct 19, 2018
    I was actually speaking present tense.

    Not future.

    Presently the Crew do not play downtown.
     
  15. DCW531

    DCW531 Member

    City SC
    Jan 31, 2017
    St. Louis, MO
    No, i Did, here it is again since you obviously overlooked it.
    The picture i linked to clearly shows the NFL markings present on the floor (turf surface), and shows no pinching in the corners.

    As to why more games have not been played there, i'd suggest you ask the CVC, or possibly US Soccer. You know, somebody that actually schedules these things.
     
  16. owian

    owian Member+

    Liverpool FC, San Diego Loyal
    May 17, 2002
    San Diego
    Club:
    Liverpool FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Different situations have different rules that's life. Cincinnati was asked to jump through a lot more hoops than NYCFC was.If you're looking for everyone to be treated the same than you probably don't want to be looking at MLS expansion, because that's never been and never will be the case. But just bear in mind, nothing in this world is perfectly fair, and that's especially the case in the murky world of professional sports. But hey if MLS' opaque ever changing expansion criteria turns you off that's ok, and I am not even saying your wrong. You have a solution which is not to follow MLS.

    I hated how the NFL treated my city, and guess what I went from an absolute die-hard on and off season ticket holder to literally not watching a game.
     
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  17. TheRealBilbo

    TheRealBilbo Member+

    Apr 5, 2016
    Columbus ' current stadium was the first SSS, and built cheap, even when accounting for inflation. I wouldn't use it as a comparison.

    Even so, it's about half the distance from downtown as Austin's.
     
  18. aetraxx7

    aetraxx7 Member+

    Jun 25, 2005
    Des Moines, IA
    Club:
    Des Moines Menace
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Both the Revs and NYCFC play in stadiums owned/controlled by their ownership group, just like Seattle and Atlanta (who also do not play in a SSS). In all four cases, this meets the requirement because they control the revenue at the venue. It's not like MLS 1.0 days where nearly every team (except the Revs) payed rent to an NCAA or NFL team.
    Would it be better if NYCFC had a SSS? Absolutely. Does Yankee Stadium meet the needs of the team and the league? Probably better than RFK did for over a decade. Gillette meets the team's needs too. Sure, it's location sucks, but Pats fans say the same thing. Boston and NY are too crammed, overdeveloped mega cities. To build a new full size stadium in either city requires some major displacement of people, businesses, park space, mass transit, etc. You are literally talking about two of the oldest cities in the country (NYC 1624 & Boston 1630) in land-locked areas of the original 13 colonies.
    Besides, Kraft is one of the founders & saviors of the league. He's not going anywhere until he decides to.
    That's not at all what he said. They are a cooperative. They jointly decide and vote on the rules. It has nothing to do with what you think "accountability" means.
    There are tons of rules. The league lays them out for expansion candidates. Some candidates get more specific criteria than others. That is usually based on the league's need/desire for certain markets over others, for example:
    Because Atlanta is the largest market in the Southeast, Blank is a great sports owner, he owns/controls the facility, and the stadium was made specifically to host an MLS team alongside the Falcons.
    All three own/control their facility. Two of those three lead the league in attendance and merchandise sales. The other is one of the founding teams/owners.
    Because their stadiums were built before MLS really took off. At the time, the league was lucky to get SSS built. Chicago, Colorado, and Dallas started their stadiums before the expansion era began; the league was literally on the verge of collapse just a couple of years before then. Columbus built their stadium like 20 years ago before the concept of a SSS really existed. KC's stadium is built in a rapidly expanding entertainment district that includes a baseball stadium, NASCAR facility, shopping, dining, and a nearby waterpark. It's very accessible and accommodating to both locals and visitors. It's a great location.
    The other thing is that every sport was building in the suburbs for a long time because that's where land was both available and affordable. The shift to downtown is a recent swing in the urban renewal cycle. Apparently you are not familiar with trends in housing either. We used to move away from downtown to the suburbs, but now the inverse is happening. It's related. It's also cyclical.
    The Galaxy aren't downtown either.
    Again, you are using a word that doesn't mean what you think it means. You are coming across as ignorant for the sake of being "correct."
     
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  19. Lothsor

    Lothsor Red Card

    Oct 19, 2018
    So you must be a fan of Alexandria Ocasio Cortez. She says she would rather be morally right than factually correct (she is factually WRONG a lot).

    What baseball stadium is KC's stadium near? I know it isn't Kauffman (where the Royals play) it must be a minor league stadium.

    Moving back to the City? Not in Saint Louis. Not in Chicago (too much gunfire).

    No I understand how they control the revenue. Still doesn't match the current narrative though of expansion cities have to have a SSS. Not credible because not consistent.

    Yankee Stadium doesn't meet the needs of NYCFC. It is not regulation width. Peter Vermes of Sporting KC has said that he has walked it off and there is no way it is the minimum of 70 yards. MLS doesn't want to offend the Steinbrenners and Sheik Mansour. When both could easily afford to build a stadium.

    Looking at Seattle Atlanta why wouldn't you want EVERY team to play in an NFL stadium? SSS limit attendance.

    Before you say it ruins the atmosphere. Is the atmosphere ruined at The Emirates (Arsenal). Will the atmosphere be ruined at the New White Hart Lane? Is there a poor atmosphere at The Olympic Stadium (West Ham)?
     
  20. Lothsor

    Lothsor Red Card

    Oct 19, 2018
    Still doesn't change the FACT that is not downtown no matter how many contortions you make.
     
  21. Lothsor

    Lothsor Red Card

    Oct 19, 2018
    The rule book you cited is from 2018.

    The Dome was built in 1995.

    You need to post the criteria from 1995.
     
  22. Brian in Boston

    Brian in Boston Member+

    Jun 17, 2004
    MA & CA, USA
    Building a soccer-specific stadium within the confines of a major American city's urban core is about more than an MLS investor/operator's ability to "easily afford" to do so.

    Of the 100 most populous cities in the United States, the six most densely- populated are New York, Chicago, Philadelphia, San Francisco, Boston, and Miami. That population density carries with it a tremendous amount of development - of residences, offices, manufacturing facilities, etc. - on the available real estate within each city's limits.

    Yes, that density of development drives up the cost of building a venue such as a soccer-specific stadium.

    Equally as important, it reduces the number of potential sites for such stadia. Why? Because, fearing perceived disruption to their quality of life, existing city residents might not want to live cheek-by-jowl with a professional sports facility. For similar reasons, the landlords of - and tenants in - existing offices might not welcome a professional sports facility next to their places of business. Manufacturers might not want to have to relocate outside of their urban core locations.

    Finally, add the difficulties of navigating the maze of local governmental bureaucracy in one of the nation's most densely-populated cities to the mix.

    Bearing each of those points in mind, look at the list of the six most densely-populated American cities again. Now ask yourself...

    * Why is it that the New York Red Bulls built Red Bull Arena amongst the marshland, industrial facilities, and rail infrastructure of Hudson County, New Jersey?

    * Why is it that nearly six years after New York City FC was announced as Major League Soccer's 20th franchise, the Steinbrenners and Sheik Mansour are still searching for a stadium site within the geographic confines of the City of New York?

    * Why is it that the Chicago Fire had to settle for building Toyota Park some 13 miles outside the Chicago Loop in suburban Bridgeview, Illinois?

    * Why is it that the Philadelphia Union's Talen Energy Stadium is located in blighted, financially distressed Chester, Pennsylvania?

    * Why is it that the Bay Area's MLS entrant calls San Jose's Avaya Stadium home, rather than a facility within the boundaries of the City of San Francisco?

    * Why is it that Robert Kraft's New England Revolution and NFL New England Patriots are both housed in Gillette Stadium, a Foxborough, Massachusetts-sited facility that is actually closer to Providence, Rhode Island than it is to Boston?

    * Why is it that more than five years on from MLS officials announcing that David Beckham had exercised his option to buy a Major League Soccer expansion team, said club is still waiting for approval from City of Miami commissioners to break ground on the team's proposed stadium site?

    Bottom line? It's about more than just the willingness of investor/operators in said markets to pay for construction of a soccer-specific stadium.
     
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  23. jaykoz3

    jaykoz3 Member+

    Dec 25, 2010
    Conshohocken, PA
    Club:
    Philadelphia Union
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    [​IMG]
     
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  24. owian

    owian Member+

    Liverpool FC, San Diego Loyal
    May 17, 2002
    San Diego
    Club:
    Liverpool FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Did you watch MLS in the 1990's and early 2000's? Ever been to a game in a 70,000 seater with 20,000? it's a hell of a lot more fun to be in a 20,000 seater with 20,000.

    Yes it did, any match going Arsenal fan will tell you that.

    HELL YES!!!! This has been the biggest stories of the last two years. The Atmosphere has generally been S*** which is in direct comparison to the Boleyn ground which historically had one of the best and most intimidating atmospheres in England.

    Ahh now I get it. Better not come to San Diego either to many caravans. :rolleyes:
     
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  25. Lothsor

    Lothsor Red Card

    Oct 19, 2018
    So I guess talking about more than one topic isn't your strong suit?
     

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