Who is "Ungrateful"? America, France, Fascism, and Debts of History

You're black, we get it, already, but shouldn't it be dropping "knowledge"?

 

So what would have been more effective when the Germans, say, marched into the Rhineland, a feckless League of Nations throwing edicts and diplomatic papers at them, or a unilateral oor multilateral US force interested in maintaining stability in the region?

 

The French Popular Front government of the middle 1930s was an example of the popular left threat that made fascism acceptable to American officials before Hitler really launched his drive for a New World Order. It is true that fascism became an avowed US enemy during WWII. This did not occur, however, until fascism, holding power in two leading imperialist states, directly attacked American interests.

So the US didn't oppose facism until two leading facist states directly attacked American interests, yet we established a wartime protectorate over Greenland (a Dutch possession) before we entered WW2, we placed an embargo of oil against Japan before Pearl Harbor, and loaned England destroyers. That doesn't sound like supporting facism to me, at least not the major facist countries at that time.

The American right wants to view France’s position on US Iraq policy as a French referendum on its historical debts to other nations. Fine – perhaps, then, we should see France’s resistance to the Bush War Party as an expression of its deep gratitude to Russia, which opposes Bush’s Iraq campaign and which lost 25 million lives in the struggle against fascism-Nazism. No nation did more than Russia to stop the Nazis.

Boy, he blasts the US for intervening in the war out of self interests, than says that no nation did more than Russia to stop the Nazis, a nation that acted totally out of self interest, a nation that collaborated with the Nazis to divide up Poland. Funny stuff....but reading the guy's paper, it's obvious he has a big axe to grind.

 

Re: Re: Re: Who is "Ungrateful"? America, France, Fascism, and Debts of History

I hear ya...

 

I don't even know where to start here. Oh yea we supported facism.....(pause for dramatic effect) You have to remember that the US was still coming off its years of being very isolationist. We didn't want to get dragged into another european war. Wouldn't it be the job of germany's neighbors to keep them in check? Especially France, who insisted on the ridiculous Versaille treaty to "punish" germany. Even the English thought it to be too harsh. France can be blamed for the rise of facism in germany and italy. In the Versaille treaty it insisted upon, france gave its ally italy, almost nothing in return for fighting the Central powers. Italy became extremely dillusioned by this snub, and here comes benito, who claims he can make italy great again. they thought that sounded good, so benito marches on rome and bingo, facist gov't no. one had been installed due to france's blindness. A young adolf hitler is inspired by mussolini's march on rome, and wants to better express his political beliefs. So with some friends he starts the National Sozialisten Deutsche Arbeiters Partei, also affectionately known as the nazi party. He tries to overthrow the weimar republic in 1923, and fails, but that only steels his determination to punish everyone. Enter the great depression, and adolf wins the election. Then it was time to make the allies pay (along with the jews, danes, dutch, belgians, yugoslavs, soviets, greeks, albanians, czechs, and norwegians) You're right, i've dealt France an unfair hand. Thank you France, for doing your part to fight Facism, while we earnestly supported it. I was in the wrong believing that France created, and then didn't stand up to the very monster that they created. Glad that's all straightened out. France, I salute you!!

 

Re: Re: Who is "Ungrateful"? America, France, Fascism, and Debts of History

Prussia made France pay a similarly massive reparation after the 1870 war, to be paid over decades - which the French paid ahead of schedule.

Yes, the exponential rise in the effectiveness of war should have made the French realize that reparations followed by revenge was a recipe for destruction. But France had plenty of reason to insist on reparations. It was a mistake, in retrospect, but it's not accurate to say the Versailles treaty was harsh beyond reason.

Yes, the Allies should not have put reparations on a regime that didn't exist anymore, but that's what the Germans did in 1870. Yes, the Allies should have been more solicitous to a struggling democracy, but no one told the Weimar Republic to use hyperinflation as a matter of policy.

Demonizing America's oldest friend in the world isn't going to make invading Iraq any better an idea, while we're on the subject.

 

Re: Re: Re: Who is "Ungrateful"? America, France, Fascism, and Debts of History

 

semi-unrelated.

so i'm sitting in my campaigns class and we're discussing nicholas trist. we must have spent 45 minutes on him. and it hits me.

in a previous life universal WAS nicholas trist. if you can't make the connection i'll spell it out for you.

 

Re: To Tell The Truth

Could be true. Communism appeared to pose more of a threat to US interests than did fascism. Obviously we didn't know that Hitler would invade other countries and murder 12 million people, that Franco would get his country embroiled in a bloody civil war, or that Mussolini would invade hapless targets like Albania and Ethiopia. Had we known this, any sympathy we might have had for fascist leaders between the wars would not have been there.

And even from a strictly humanitarian standpoint, Hitler wasn't any worse than Stalin, and Mussolini and Franco were a hell of a lot better.


Alex

 

Well, now that we have unequivocally established that the US is responsible, in some way or another, for everything evil that has ever happened on this planet we can be assured that there is nothing left to argue. However, there is one question that still remains. Where are my pants?

 

If you want to live a long life, I suggest you relax a bit. Getting to worked up over politics will take you down a very ugly road...just look at Ted Kennedy. Your mirrored sunglasses (with the mirror on the inside) are distorting your view of the world. You apparently think that they world should be a perfect place with everyone accepting responsibility for everything. Well, let me join your fight. Right now I am going to drive home from school and walk into the pharmacy where I once stole a Snickers bar from and confess. I suggest everyone does the same...you will feel a lot better, and so will Uni.

I think it was everyones favorite Oklahoman who said it best, "The Politics Forum is just a rivalry forum for people without a sense of humor."

 

Of course, there's no such thing called humorous politics.

 

Nor political humor. Now if someone would tell just Mark Russell.

 

...that he's political trolling?

 

What were you expecting? Over the last two weeks we have disagreed on everything surrounding the possibility of this action. I'm pretty much on one side, and you're on the other. What could I possibly say to change your mind?

Lighten up Francis.

 

Answer my question if you are going to play 'cut and paste.' What could I possibly say to convince you to look at it from another perspective? I can answer it for you. There is nothing that I could say. You at set in your opinion and have no apparent desire to do as little as even change your perspective.

 

Re: Paradigm Shift

I can say you've changed my perspective on the value of word economy.