It is not about Alan Shearer, it is more about your fixation on UEFA Champions League and ESM Team of the Month appearances. Tell me exactly where that valid assessment aligns with reality of what actually happened there. Otherwise stick to parroting the media consensus when it suits your purposes. I am not really interested what sort of events are required to guarantee a player's place in the history books, because you can just read up on that. I don't need your edited version of those past narratives. There's countless books and newspaper reports that is available for the reading. If you mean that Dennis Bergkamp missed out on key moments to solidify his legacy beyond his actual level of performance, I agree, if you mean that what the history books say reflects reality, I strongly disagree. Media reflection is essentially an extrapolation of the biggest hitting narratives. It is a story meant to sell, not be a scientific measurement of all the performances. Finally, don't tell me how to think about football. I'm not here to join your cult of which hierarchy makes the most sense. I have my own views, and they may be wrong, but I'm ready to learn new information. Just drop the agenda and we can proceed.
yes ... Is interesting at all ... this part here ! really Interesting I'm not here to join your cult of which hierarchy makes the most sense. I have my own views, and they may be wrong, but I'm ready to learn new information. Just drop the agenda and we can proceed. Congratulations.... by the humbleness ..
I have not played a minute of it. I am just a casual fan that thinks what Dennis Bergkamp did throughout his career cannot be judged accurately off high stakes moments, or what the media at the time decided was the most noteworthy. I also think this about a lot of players, but cannot provide an adequate alternative as opposed to the media consensus. For certain players, I will push back harder, but it is a gripe I have in general. I'm sure you have your own gripes with the general consensus and who the media overrates or underrates inside your mind.
.... Well... I'm practically 42 years old... already .. I watched several entire Dennis Bergkamp's matches... Yes Dennis Bergkamp had a lot of technical brilliance.. was brilliant like Johan Cruyff with Johan Cruyff; who was a master in the Art of Technical teaching skills ambi-dextrous Class ..Romário himself that says this about Johan Cruyff .;;in Brazil so many many times ... ' a greater master in the Art of Technical teaching skills " the best ever on this by Romário .. like Zidane and Marco van Basten...also ... but in all the possible metrics of Professional Football I'm not really convinced yet; that he had these all qualities.. Outside of Technical Attributes..
For example ... Behaviour in Big matches by Dennis Bergkamp was not good at all ... only 0, 47 % at average ... the him behaviour putting together .... Goals + Assists ..+ Pre-Assists + Key Plays ....
I'm liking the balanced nature of the post Carlito - not really decisively pro or anti Bergkamp (at least when considering the video with the Pires comments being added as well). I don't think it did result in a massive dip in his performances and output though: 2001/02 Premier League Assists 1. Robert Pirès - France 15 2. Dennis Bergkamp - Netherlands 12 2. Ryan Giggs - Wales 12 DBS Calcio Premier League average rating 2001/02 Premier League (EN) 23 6.46 SP 5 6.19 2003/04 Premier League Assists 1. Muzzy Izzet - Turkey 14 2. Paolo Di Canio - Italy 12 3. Brett Emerton - Australia 11 3. Ryan Giggs - Wales 11 5. Steed Malbranque - France 10 6. Kevin Davies - England 9 6. Damien Duff - Ireland 9 8. Gareth Barry - England 8 8. Robert Pirès - France 8 10. Dennis Bergkamp - Netherlands 7 DBS Calcio Premier League average rating 2003/04 Premier League (EN) 22 6.68 SP 3 6.32 2004/05 Premier League Assists 1. Frank Lampard - England 18 2. Thierry Henry - France 14 3. Dennis Bergkamp - Netherlands 12 DBS Calcio Premier League average rating 2004/05 Premier League (EN) 26 6.28 SP 6 6.00
And this is a big game And this is a big game (If a team doesn't get past a QF it can't get to the Final of course) And this is a big game
..... .... ...... yes Thierry Henry losing so many many big chances to score there ,, ...Well... I'm practically 42 years old... already .. I watched several entire Dennis Bergkamp's matches... Yes Dennis Bergkamp had a lot of technical brilliance.. was brilliant like Johan Cruyff to be honest with you ...Zidane ,,,Van Basten... with Johan Cruyff; who was a master in the Art of Technical teaching skills ambi-dextrous Class ..Romário himself that says this about Johan Cruyff .;;in Brazil so many many times ... ' a greater master in the Art of Technical teaching skills " the best ever on this by Romário .. like Zidane and Marco van Basten...also ... but in all the possible metrics of Professional Football I'm not really convinced yet; that he had these all qualities.. Outside of Technical Attributes..
I don't say there was no difference/decline due to physical aspects Carlito by the way though of course (just that the technical and creative quality was still evident and very useful in the 00s). Comparing 1996/97 to 1998/99 (the latter saw him on the shortlist for FWA Player of the Year and with a good number of Premier League assists, albeit in 1995/96 his debut Premier League season DBS Calcio shows a better average rating...but anyway there is a video for that one too now that you can look up - obviously I know that these kinds of videos focus on the best/good moments of the chosen player and can also make other players look a little poor in their missing of chances lol, although I think and said before it's true that Henry wasn't the most efficient chance converter, but obviously on the other hand he was great at scoring and creating goals including many times when most others wouldn't be doing it from the same positions) Keep in mind Bergkamp was scoring more in these 90s seasons when viewing the assist figures of course. Also keep in mind that in general his pre-assists numbers were very good too. 1996/97 Premier League Assists 1. Eric Cantona - France 12 2. Neal Ardley - England 11 3. Dennis Bergkamp - Netherlands 9 3. Andy Hinchcliffe - England 9 3. Gary McAllister - Scotland 9 3. Gianfranco Zola - Italy 9 DBS Calcio Premier League average rating (indicates worthy of more recognition in the end of season awards this season as he was among the top few rated Premier League players - obviously in the end of calendar year awards he got it though, albeit with the start to 97/98 a major factor) 1996/97 Premier League (EN) 27 6.65 SP 1 6.41 1997/98 Premier League Assists 1. David Beckham - England 13 2. Dennis Bergkamp - Netherlands 11 (I remember Carlito you did post this one before yourself anyway) DBS Calcio Premier League average rating 1997/98 Premier League (EN) 27 6.94 SP 1 6.58 (I know Robben has higher ones in Bundesliga, albeit comparing is tricky because of different systems in different leagues and on DBS Calcio if there is a bigger variance between top and bottom ratings in a league it can look better for the top ratings when the 'adjustment to DBS Calcio standard' (for the media rating I mean, not the DBS rating which relates to comparing to players in their own teams too) is applied (considering 6 to be truly an average grade and adjusting other actual media grades to match that; while Bergkamp did have many seasons where he missed a number of games it tended to be he missed less than Robben too I suppose, and even at Chelsea in 2004/05 Robben had a very good season which was only in effect about half a season...albeit otherwise perhaps he'd have been rivalling Lampard at least as key Chelsea player of the season for example to be fair, if his form/impact had been sustained on a consistent basis anyway). 1998/99 Premier League Assists 1. Dennis Bergkamp - Netherlands 13 1. Jimmy Floyd Hasselbaink - Netherlands 13 DBS Calcio Premier League average rating 1998/99 Premier League (EN) 28 6.29 SP 4 5.99 https://www.bigsoccer.com/threads/p...ivision-ratings.2037606/page-29#post-41242289
I never thought that highly of Dennis Bergkamp's eagerness to engage in physical duels, or his willingness to be more of a physical focal point in attack. His aerial ability alone makes him not the ideal target-striker. He is not a complete centre-forward in that sense, but I do personally have the opinion that he was as close as you can get to being the best second-striker of his generation. The reason why I highlighted the other noteable assist makers of his generation, is their profile of assists. They are all essentially wingers and/or set-pieces specialists, who create chances via crosses, corner-kicks and set-pieces scenarios. Dennis Bergkamp is the only player to join that list, with a tendency to create in more central areas of the pitch, during open-play. As in, less dependence on operating in wide-areas and assisting via crosses, and potentially clogging up the same channels as a player who likes to operate out wide. These are some sources that track his assist styles. defence2attack on X: "@pocketreceiver Bergkamp probably a top 5 passer Very incisive, very high quality https://t.co/iaMpfnvyNo" / X (twitter.com) “The Invincibles” Arsenal 2003-04 Analysis (3) – Henry-Bergkamp Partnership | Football Performance Analysis He is the all-time assist leader for Arsenal, one of the top pre-assists leaders if individual tallying is to be trusted, one of the top assist creators in major European domestic leagues when he was active as a player, as well as having more key passes and assists for his national side in major international tournaments than any player I've managed to find. As a second-striker, that is quite the resume in my opinion. Most massive assist creators from that era tend to be more reliant on set-pieces, corner-kicks, or crosses. His ability to link-up plays without losing the ball, the speed-of-thought and accuracy-in-execution with which he did so, and his understanding of the nature of his teammates, especially in games I've watched, were things that cannot be dismissed lightly. It was amazingly consistent, and repeatable regardless of form and age, week-in week-out, across many seasons and with various teammates. Weekly performances that would raise the floor of the team, even if he did not look like the main protagonist or whatever it is that captivates all the newspaper headlines. I'm also open to discussions regarding the assists and pre-assists tallies from players of his position and role who played during Dennis Bergkamp's particular era, if they are readily available. I understand that Dennis Bergkamp was sometimes not that forceful, and maybe a little too dependent on calculated, technical plays, but he was not slight of build. I personally think it was more of an eagerness and mindset issue. Maybe people were expecting someone like Marco van Basten, who could do a little bit of everything, including a warrior-type mindset, but Dennis Bergkamp was truly exceptional in his own mannerisms that was not just aesthetically pleasing to watch, but functionally vital in ways that are not being appreciated fully. I truly believe that he is being forcefully being slighted, more than being exposed for what he truly was in my opinion.
But as always: the anglogerman alliance and latin cabal agendas are strong. The ones that push as down and freeze us out. Give liberties to Tah and predecessors to foul a half dozen times, with then a hint to take him off.
https://www.uefa.com/uefachampionsl...e-s-top-goalkeepers-casillas-most-appearance/ Neuer is enormously overrated. Courtois is better purely as a goalkeeper and had surely the better performances in finals (surely 2022, 2024). But it will play out as it always does, by the media and pseudo-professors.
Re: ESM Teams, I'll add the 1994/95 XI (selected after the season though, not on a monthly basis) that does have Shearer in as well as Klinsmann (but other Premier League players to receive votes were only Cantona, Flowers, Ince and Schmeichel with one each - World Soccer's own team only had Klinsmann from the Premier League as you can see, although I wouldn't be sure that means they tended to avoid putting in Premier League players over the next years in the monthly choices more than or as much as other sources - after all they were best placed to appreciate Premier League players and view them regularly even if most of the journalists would be attempting to see as much football including in highlight form as they could I suppose...and it was their job too obviously...anyway I haven't seen any proper breakdown analysis for each magazine I don't think) https://www.bigsoccer.com/threads/missing-esm-team-of-the-month.1981639/page-4#post-35733034 Zola is in there too as you can see (as often the ESM midfielder choices included several AM/supporting forward type players and he's one of them although actually as you can see Gazzetta dello Sport and Kicker both put him as forward in their 4-3-3 selections) Parma: 15 Greatest Players of the Parmalat Era | News, Scores, Highlights, Stats, and Rumors | Bleacher Report "Gianfranco Zola will always be remembered for his spell with Chelsea in the Premier League, but it is his spell in Italy with Napoli and Parma that brought him to the nation’s attention. The diminutive forward played in the same Napoli side as the great Diego Maradona, and the controversial forward proved to be a great influence on the playmaker. Following four years with Napoli, Zola made the move up north to join moneybags Parma in a £9 million double deal with fellow Napoli player Massimo Crippa. Zola enjoyed a hugely successful time with the Ducali, and in his first season with his new side he helped them win the UEFA Cup as well as finishing runners-up in Serie A. When Carlo Ancelotti took over for Nevio Scala in 1996, Zola fell out of favour with his new manager unable to find space for him in his side. In November 1996, Zola moved to Chelsea for a fee of £4.5 million, but he will always be remembered for his spell with Parma." Zola Voted Greatest Ever Chelsea Player - Chelsea MAD (chelsea-mad.co.uk) The Chelsea Centenary XI | BigSoccer Forum
* It's clear it's Frank de Boer in the back 4 of Don Balon's team I think by the way in the 1994/95 ESM season voting, not Ronald (looking also at the numbers of inclusions overall, notwithstanding that Ronald in defence would seem a particular stretch and less arguable than having several AMs or some forwards as midfielders). Maybe Shearer's goals tally and PFA award made convincing cases for a 'season vote' too for many publications, not to say their journalists didn't see any footage. It's hard off the top of my head (keeping in mind that being selected for one month can depend on several notable and noticed performances in that same month...and not even a couple in one month and a couple in the following one for example) but potentially in 1995/96 and 1996/97 (particularly in 1996 calendar year) he could have been a contender, although he didn't have Premier League player of the month awards in those seasons actually either.
I just think over-reliance on accolades to judge the body of work is doomed to begin with. It is sometimes closer to an appreciation for certain style and manner of excellence that is swayed by a lot of factors, including things like shock value, voter-fatigue, a sudden interesting turn on a known narrative, anticipation for a potential upward trend, or a spammable clip-worthy moment. Yes, it matters a lot to seize the moment when all eyes are you, in terms of individual legacy, but as far as overall contribution for the team results go, it can really mean not that much in terms of pure pragmatic value. I really could not care less about what sort of moments improves the general media perception, odds for individual accolades, chance of a salary increase or advertisement opportunities. I want to focus more on the consequences solely within the pitch. Kevin De Bruyne winning zero EPL Player of the Month awards is just another trivia, not a representation of his week-to-week domestic performances. Of course, my own thoughts and opinions are influenced by a lot of factors also, because I am not a perfect footballing assessment machine. However I think I am able to spot a serious error in judgement when people try to portray lack of ESM Team of the Month awards as some sort of consistency issue on pitch, when it is in my opinion, closer to lack of impact caused on the media of the times. Alan Shearer had zero ESM Team of the Month awards from 1995 to 1997, not because he lacked consistency or lacked contributions on the pitch, but because bigger headlines were to be had elsewhere. Making big headlines with your performances is not the be all end all, although I do agree there is a pathway to make certain that a player achieves the best of both worlds by attaining excellence on the pitch, and making all the agrandizing headlines. I just think measurement of performances on the pitch is another issue altogether.
Said it before but it is really bizarre how Baresi is a default top 30 player and Rijkaard is typically not even on the radar for a top 100. How does that compute? Rijkaard was as good a player, very arguably better. Only in World Cups it is different.
.... .. .. ..Attributes Points [ Comparison Style ] : {Football Manager Style } 230 ......Technical Points + 233 ...... Mental Points + 256 ..Physical Points Total Points ========== 719 Points ..... Ruud Gullit .. v s Dennis Bergkamp ... ... .. .. .. Technical Points : 192 + Mental `Points : 200 + Physical Points : 180 Total Points ================== 572 Points .... Dennis Bergkamp .. .... .. 196 Technical Points + 174 Mental Points + Physical Points 206 Total Points ======================= 576 Points .....Arjen Robben