Who is the most overrated all time great?

Discussion in 'The Beautiful Game' started by Neron Nuñez, Jul 7, 2024.

?

Who are the most overrated all time greats?

  1. R9

    10 vote(s)
    21.3%
  2. Zidane

    9 vote(s)
    19.1%
  3. Cristiano Ronaldo

    19 vote(s)
    40.4%
  4. Ronaldinho

    9 vote(s)
    19.1%
  1. Wiliam Felipe Gracek

    Santos FC
    France
    Feb 3, 2024


    Why you don't putted the Pre-Assists as well ???







    Pre-Assists .. is one Criteria or Metric extremely important mainly to Midfielders and Defenders ,,PLayers ...in general ..



    to be fair with All the players in the whole World ...!
     
  2. Trachta10

    Trachta10 Member+

    Apr 25, 2016
    Club:
    CA Boca Juniors
    Only Messi

    Messi in Finals
    Matches: 49
    Goals: 35
    Assists: 15
    Non-Opta: 5
    Pre-Assists: 5
    Team Contribution 60/93: 64.52%
    Clutch Contribution 35/48: 72.92%

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]
     
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  3. Wiliam Felipe Gracek

    Santos FC
    France
    Feb 3, 2024



    .....
    Phenomenal players

    in Big finals or in Big matches





    1# Ferenc Puskas ..... 1, 92 %
    2# Edson Arantes Pelé ..... 1, 80 % ....... " Is Missing Pre-Assists yet "
    3# Johan Cruyff ............... 1, 52 %
    4#..........Diego Armando Maradona ....... 1,28 % without Copa San Martin de Torres ...1980..... could be 1, 58 %.......
    5# .....Lionel Messi ........... 1, 22 %
    6#....... Alfredo Di Stefano ....... 1, 18 %
    7# ...... Ronaldo Nazario ........ 1, 10 %
    8#....... Michel PLatini ......... 1, 08 %
    ............ Gerd Muller der Bomber from Nation............ 1, 05 %
    ............. Romário the little man ............... 1, 05 %
    11 ........# Ruud Gullit ............... 1, 00 %
    12..... Marco van Basten .......... 0, 93 , 75 %
    13 ..... Neymar Jr.............. 0, 85 %........" Is Missing Pre-Assists yet "
    14 ........... Del Piero ...........0, 75 %
    15............... C. Ronaldo ...... 0, 68 %............." Is Missing Pre-Assists yet "
    16............ Rijkaard ............0, 59 %
    ....................Zinedine Zidane ...............
    low Numbers :
    18 ,,............. Ronaldinho Gaucho.........0, 48 %
    19.......... Dennis Bergkamp ............0,47 %
    20 ...........Michael Laudrup ..........0, 43 %
     
  4. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel BigSoccer Yellow Card

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    Can we do these discussions please in another thread? (such as this)

    @PDG1978 @NeuerGOAT @Letmepost @Wiliam Felipe Gracek (Neuer the Goat... lol, goat in errors perhaps)

    1843356959254425658 is not a valid tweet id


    Neeskens himself said by the way that Van Hanegem was the (slightly) better player. Van Hanegem is also seven years older.

     
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  5. Wiliam Felipe Gracek

    Santos FC
    France
    Feb 3, 2024


    You means ... What with that PuckVanHeel ?????


    Where were you PuckVanHeel... almost a month away from the Forum

    was on vacation in a long terms hahahaha ??

    my spiritual brother !



    i miss you abit ..!
     
  6. Wiliam Felipe Gracek

    Santos FC
    France
    Feb 3, 2024


    yes ...
    yes We could create a great Thread Best Dutch players.. of all time and
    your performances throughout your career..

    do you mean this by the way???
     
  7. NeuerGOAT

    NeuerGOAT Member

    Bayern München
    Germany
    Jul 18, 2023
    The goat in errors still managed to win 1 WC and 2 UCL playing a crucial role in all of them. Come on man, I know you're anti German but I'm advocating for Robben here. At least you should show respect for my favorite player
     
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  8. Trachta10

    Trachta10 Member+

    Apr 25, 2016
    Club:
    CA Boca Juniors
    Neymar has played 717 matches.
    These are Messi's and Cristiano's numbers when they reached the same amount

    [​IMG]
     
  9. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel BigSoccer Yellow Card

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    - I am especially anti Southern Germany and anti Munich. Northern Germany and North-Rhine Westphalia is fine. Munich remains terrible, a hotbed of many things that I'll not name here.

    - You are "only advocating for Robben" by thrashing down his compatriots (with wrong and false arguments imho).

    - Someone who makes a string of errors/howlers in multiple successive tournaments cannot be the GOAT (and he was lucky to not be sent off in 2014).


    In the meantime: Van Dijk received a red card today. For talking (which he as captain is allowed to do) and then a dubious/borderline card three minutes later. Referee and his entire team was a Swiss-German :rolleyes: (is a dual national). Van Dijk is suspended for the next Germany match.

    Meanwhile, Jonathan Tah et al. was deliberately saved and spared by the referee in the previous match against Oranje. Which Nagelsmann revealed himself! Subtle hint to use one of the five substitutions.

    There you have the power of Germany, the power of corruption (unless they play against another cartel nation, of course, against someone as Argentina and their thugs). The anglogerman alliance. The Stafford Bloors and other scumbags.

    The good news: a record unbeaten streak against the Hungarians now (the 2013 match was a record defeat for Hungary, nice!). That beloved football country of Jonathan Wilson and other pseudo-professors. Always good to hammer in the obvious point.
     
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  10. Wiliam Felipe Gracek

    Santos FC
    France
    Feb 3, 2024



    .........


    NeuerTheGoat ..


    he didn't belittle anyone no PuckVanHeel..


    He showed concrete arguments in favor of Arjen Robben..

    to the Detriment of Dennis Bergkamp...


    It is normal on my view ...

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FIFA_World_Cup_awards


    ....https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/UEFA_European_Championship_awards#Team_of_the_Tournament





    Dutch Players ....with Golden Balls .... Siver Balls... Bronze Balls in Major Trophies :




    ..Van Basten ....Golden Ball ...Euro-Cup ....1988
    ..Cruyff ........Golden Ball ....... World Cup..... 1974



    ...


    Wesley Sneijder ..... Silver Ball ... World Cup 2010 ...
    Ruud Gullit ...........Silver Ball ,,,,,,,,,,,,, Euro-Cup 1988




    ....Arjen Robben ........ Bronze Ball .......... World Cup ....2014 ..
    ...Frank Rijkaard ...........Bronze Ball .......... Euro-Cup ....1988

    ..


    only Dutch Players .... that were Awarded in Major Trophies ...



    Dennis Bergkamp ...don't have the Awards ...
     
  11. Wiliam Felipe Gracek

    Santos FC
    France
    Feb 3, 2024


    ;....
    NeuerTheGoat ..


    he didn't belittle anyone no PuckVanHeel..


    He showed concrete arguments in favor of Arjen Robben..

    to the Detriment of Dennis Bergkamp...


    It is normal on my view ...

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FIFA_World_Cup_awards


    ....https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/UEFA_European_Championship_awards#Team_of_the_Tournament





    Dutch Players ....with Golden Balls .... Siver Balls... Bronze Balls in Major Trophies :




    ..Van Basten ....Golden Ball ...Euro-Cup ....1988
    ..Cruyff ........Golden Ball ....... World Cup..... 1974



    ...


    Wesley Sneijder ..... Silver Ball ... World Cup 2010 ...
    Ruud Gullit ...........Silver Ball ,,,,,,,,,,,,, Euro-Cup 1988




    ....Arjen Robben ........ Bronze Ball .......... World Cup ....2014 ..
    ...Frank Rijkaard ...........Bronze Ball .......... Euro-Cup ....1988

    ..


    only Dutch Players .... that were Awarded in Major Trophies ...



    Dennis Bergkamp ...don't have the Awards ...


    Puck Van Heel ... face the truth and Learning from always !
     
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  12. PDG1978

    PDG1978 Member+

    Mar 8, 2009
    Club:
    Nottingham Forest FC
  13. NeuerGOAT

    NeuerGOAT Member

    Bayern München
    Germany
    Jul 18, 2023
    I was checking and Bergkamp only had 2 appearances in the ESM team of the month. I know, the awards started in 95/96 but still, that includes 5 seasons of his physical peak (25-30 years from 95/96 to 99/00) and a few more with prime Arsenal. 2 appearances is very little compared to Robben who had 14 appearances. He's the very second dutch player with the most appearances joint with Van der Sar both behind van Dijk.
     
  14. NeuerGOAT

    NeuerGOAT Member

    Bayern München
    Germany
    Jul 18, 2023
    This is xenophobia Puck. @comme are you seeing this?

    So expose the wrong and false arguments to me.

    Neuer was the best goalkeeper of the 2014 World Cup. He wasn't "lucky".
     
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  15. PDG1978

    PDG1978 Member+

    Mar 8, 2009
    Club:
    Nottingham Forest FC
    Like you indicate, we don't know how many he in theory might have had at Ajax for example, but I think it was relatively rare for Premier League players to get included in 90s seasons (98/99 being a bit of an exception though) and to an extent later than that too (though already in 00/01, which overall to be fair was a bit of a 'down season' for Bergkamp, there were a decent amount of Premier League inclusions).

    He did take 4 Premier League Player of the Month awards (2 in 97/98, though one of them a different month not with an ESM inclusion - August 1997...hence one of his ESM inclusions came in a month he wasn't Premier League Player of the Month so 3 stand-out months with accolades putting both together in a way that season - he got 12 overall votes by publications apparently that season and it's hard to compare to later seasons where more publications were involved - link in post below to a spreadsheet showing that so as you see he had a small number of votes from publications at least during 96/97, 98/99, 00/01 and 01/02 too)
    https://www.bigsoccer.com/threads/missing-esm-team-of-the-month.1981639/page-5#post-41095706
    Premier League Player of the Month - Wikipedia

    On the other hand in Ballon d'Or voting Bergkamp was 3rd in 1992, 2nd in 1993 (3rd in FIFA World Player voting), 4th in 1997 (joint 3rd FIFA World Player voting), joint 8th in 1998 (7th FIFA World Player voting) so that probably reflects acknowledgment of his best form and periods better than ESM does I think....
     
  16. carlito86

    carlito86 Member+

    Jan 11, 2016
    Club:
    Real Madrid
    #1291 carlito86, Oct 12, 2024
    Last edited: Oct 12, 2024
    https://m.youtube.com/shorts/9ODaaGkhzqY


    ESM point is completely valid though IMO
    You either use ESM for everyone or don’t use it at all

    We can talk about some mitigating factors like
    Maybe/perhaps bergkamps fear of flights(and consequently lack of CL away performances) has something to do with his lack of inclusions

    the premier league as a whole during his prime wasn’t respected that much (as is now)
    This extends up until Thierry Henry’s heyday(when he lost the ballon dor to nedved)

    I think after 2004 the tide started to shift(slightly)and premier league players garned the kind of respect their performances warranted

    Then again Micheal Owen did win the ballon dor as a premiership player(deserved or undeserved is irrelevant)

    In 2001 I don’t think bergkamp was that far removed from his peak although I appreciate 32 years old was kind of oldish for a early 2000s player
    Even so… bergkamp was supposedly a 100% technical player so I don’t see how a slight decrease in his athletic condition could result in such a dip in his level of performances and output
     
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  17. Letmepost

    Letmepost Member

    Arsenal
    South Korea
    Apr 11, 2023
    Are we comparing the two players, or the media portrayal of the two players? I don't mind reviewing the past narratives throughout the years for further depth or an exposure of a forgotten detail, but I truly wish we went beyond comparing Ballon d'Ors and how much big UEFA Champions League or World Cup moments these players had. Otherwise this is just a forum that parrots the media consensus and history books, albeit with personal insults diluting the discussions.

    Dennis Bergkamp was a player that made his teams better, with ridiculous consistency from my personal spectating experience of him, at least. Whether those contribution had a satifying movie ending with an appropriate hero play, that could be later referenced on YouTube, or be associated with a nice shiny individual trophy, is another matter. Sometimes consistent good play from a pragmatic perspective doesn't always get rewarded in the history books. Media legacy does not always measure the amount of positive contributions a player had.

    Since I lack data, and the necessary memory to recall all the details of the player, I just have to base my words around intuitions and borrow opinions from others, which just makes the entire debate circular. I truly believe as a player, and what he was outputting on the pitch, it is not that ridiculous to compare Arjen Robben with Dennis Bergkamp, even if ESM Player of the Month says otherwise.

    I don't think the mathematical equations used by Goalimpact is that good, but I just wanted to point things out as a potential premise. I don't agree with the numbers, but I also don't agree with the ESM Team of the Month numbers, so if we are throwing out any numbers and trivia, let's go.

    Let's just assume the following, what if Dennis Bergkamp was way more important for the team results of Arsenal than what his individual accolades, or rudimentary statistics such as goals or assists would suggest? What if his contributions were solely missed in terms of pragmatic value, not merely artistic value? What if Dennis Bergkamp was the core reason why everyone and anyone around him played fantastic, even if Dennis Bergkamp was not the main beneficiary of that outcome, in terms of individual promotion?

    upload_2024-10-12_22-55-28.png

    What if this was a real possibility, a potential conclusion that cannot be drawn from who made the most eye-catching plays in the UEFA Champions League, or whatever big showdown match was drawing all the attention at the time? What if Dennis Bergkamp was just quietly making his team play better, week-in week-out, and just drew the unlucky end of the draw, when it came to hitting just the right form and physical fitness, in a tournament that could immortalize him in that specific moment, as if that's how he always played? What if the total sum of his contributions, throughout the years, even if the stars didn't quite align for him, was way too large to be dismissed for not being noticeable enough in terms of blockbuster narratives and raw visceral destructive value?

    I just want to know if this is a possible conclusion that can be explored. And I do not think the answer can be found in counting ESM Team of the Month, or whether he has more World Cup Bronze Ball awards than Hong Myung-Bo, who wasn't even the best performing Korean player for that tournament, in my opinion.
     
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  18. Trachta10

    Trachta10 Member+

    Apr 25, 2016
    Club:
    CA Boca Juniors
    Club Only
    Maradona: 1982/83 to 1985/86
    Platini: 1982/83 to 1985/86
    Zico: 1982 to 1986

    [​IMG]
     
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  19. Wiliam Felipe Gracek

    Santos FC
    France
    Feb 3, 2024






    All Career numbers :

    Zico

    771 matches
    518 goals
    0, 67, 18 % goals



    771 matches
    270 Assists
    0, 35, 01 % Assists ....


    G+A ====== 1, 02 %

    Michel Platini

    667 Matches
    358 Goals
    0, 53, 67 % Goals


    ¨667 matches
    228 Assists
    0, 34 , 18 % Assists ....


    G+A =========== 0, 88 %



    Diego Armando Maradona


    680 matches
    345 Goals
    0, 50, 73 % Goals



    680 Matches
    236 Assists
    0r
    239 Assists


    0, 34, 70 % Assists
    0r
    0, 35,14 % Assists ...



    G+A ----------====== 0, 85 % OR 0, 86 % !
     
  20. Wiliam Felipe Gracek

    Santos FC
    France
    Feb 3, 2024
    [/QUOTE]




    yes was a Good Point Of View yours for sure ,....... ! congratulations man ! hahahaha !



    upload_2024-10-12_17-45-48.jpeg
     
  21. Wiliam Felipe Gracek

    Santos FC
    France
    Feb 3, 2024


    But ... the Official Awards was :



    Sweden 1992
    (11 player squad)[35] GK-[​IMG] Peter Schmeichel FULLRB- Jocelyn Angloma
    CD-[​IMG] Laurent Blanc
    FULLLEFTBACK-[​IMG] Andreas Brehme
    QUARTER-BACK Jürgen Kohler

    DM - [​IMG] Stefan Effenberg
    WG - RIGHT WINGER PLAYMAKER ...[​IMG] Ruud Gullit
    OH-AM ...[​IMG] Thomas Häßler
    WG- LEFT WINGER PLAYMAKER ....[​IMG] Brian Laudrup

    CF------[​IMG] Marco van Basten
    CF------- Dennis Bergkamp


    BALLON D'OR :... PETER SCHMEICHEL
    SILVER BALL :..... BRIAN LAUDRUP
    BRONZE BALL : .....[​IMG] sTEFAN EFFENBERG ... HE WON ON FRANK RIJKAARD IN THE POSITION----- DM ...DEFENSIVE MIDFIELDER ...
     
  22. Wiliam Felipe Gracek

    Santos FC
    France
    Feb 3, 2024




    ....https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/UEFA_European_Championship_awards#Team_of_the_Tournament
     
  23. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel BigSoccer Yellow Card

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    Xenophobia simply means an aversion to something that is alien and strange to you. I'd rather be a xenophobic than an oikophobic. I take it as a compliment to be a xenophobe, xenophobic against safe havens for very wrong people.

    Xenophobic against all that cheating against us by crooked referees (see the last matchday again), xenopohobic against all that sucking our football dry (by the cartel, the Agnellis and the like), xenopohobic against threats for our culture and people that have been living here for ages.

    Keylor Navas was. It was by no means clear and obvious (not like Schmeichel was clearly #1 in 1992). He was 'lucky' to not be sent off in the final.

    https://www.americansocceranalysis.com/world-cup-expected-goals-by-keeper

    This for example is nonsense:

    "Sure he had an impact in the UEFA Cup but that's not a like for like comparison. Robben has reached several Champions League finals and played over 100 games. Even if you add Bergkamp's UEFA Cup career to his Champions League career, Robben's Champions League career is still far ahead."

    The Champions League didn't open up to non-champions until he was 28 years old. The one time he did become champion (in 1990) his club was banned.

    He was one penalty kick away from being the first player to win the UEFA Cup (or an UEFA competition in general) with three different clubs, all as the main creative player. By the year 2000, when the Champions League opened up to three and four teams, he was pretty much the all-time topscorer of the UEFA Cup (excluding penalties).

    He has more major UEFA trophies as Baggio, Zola, Cantona, Weah, Romario and Batistuta tossed together.

    Also in the Champions League he had his games, as your 'kicker' can testify.

    His first rated game by them (1/6 and MOTM):
    https://www.kicker.de/arsenal-gegen-leverkusen-2002-champions-league-559933/analyse

    Second game (2/6 and MOTM - he was 33.5 years old here):
    https://www.kicker.de/arsenal-gegen-dortmund-2002-champions-league-606406/analyse

    ESM is a more valid point, but likewise players as Baggio, Zola and Cantona don't do well there either. Awards: I have said enough about this in the past, and how they function (also in sports where it is about crossing the finish line first). I think ESM is especially bad for our country, even if per capita 'we' rank very high. Ballon d'Or of the last 30 years is even more an affront.

    I think both players are broadly of the same level.

    -----------------------------------------------------------





    This all looks pretty decent for the 1992-2024 period (but in the eyes of the usual suspects they're all merely decorations for the Neuers, Lahms, Busquets, Lampards, Zidanes et al.).
     
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  24. Wiliam Felipe Gracek

    Santos FC
    France
    Feb 3, 2024


    .....

    ...
    ...
    ..

    You can't confuse what your eyes like to watch always ...


    What was really the reality of the facts...



    ...
    Many young people only look at the Highlights at YouTube of that player y or x or z " prefer Player "


    Generally at average from these players

    are Different than only Highlights ,,


    The Fact is :


    Dennis Bergkamp don't have the Awards with National Team Side ...



    only : 2 All Stars dream Team elections ... : 2 ( 1992 Euro-Cup, 1998 World Cup )




    1992

    Ballon D'or : Peter Schmeichel
    Silver Ball : Brian Laudrup
    Bronze Ball : Stefen Effenberg ..



    World Cup 1998 :


    Ballon D'or : Ronaldo Nazário
    Silver Ball : Suker
    Bronze Ball : Thuram ...
     
  25. Wiliam Felipe Gracek

    Santos FC
    France
    Feb 3, 2024


    ...

    But ... the Official Awards was :



    Sweden 1992
    (11 player squad)[35] GK-[​IMG] Peter Schmeichel FULLRB- Jocelyn Angloma
    CD-[​IMG] Laurent Blanc
    FULLLEFTBACK-[​IMG] Andreas Brehme
    QUARTER-BACK Jürgen Kohler

    DM - [​IMG] Stefan Effenberg
    WG - RIGHT WINGER PLAYMAKER ...[​IMG] Ruud Gullit
    OH-AM ...[​IMG] Thomas Häßler
    WG- LEFT WINGER PLAYMAKER ....[​IMG] Brian Laudrup

    CF------[​IMG] Marco van Basten
    CF------- Dennis Bergkamp


    BALLON D'OR :... PETER SCHMEICHEL
    SILVER BALL :..... BRIAN LAUDRUP
    BRONZE BALL : .....[​IMG] sTEFAN EFFENBERG ... HE WON ON FRANK RIJKAARD IN THE POSITION----- DM ...DEFENSIVE MIDFIELDER ...
     

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