Who is the most overrated all time great?

Discussion in 'The Beautiful Game' started by Neron Nuñez, Jul 7, 2024.

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Who are the most overrated all time greats?

  1. R9

    10 vote(s)
    22.7%
  2. Zidane

    8 vote(s)
    18.2%
  3. Cristiano Ronaldo

    19 vote(s)
    43.2%
  4. Ronaldinho

    7 vote(s)
    15.9%
  1. Wiliam Felipe Gracek

    Santos FC
    France
    Feb 3, 2024


    ....
    2008-2009 Liga 31 ....23...... 11 Copa Del Rey from Spain...8... 6... 1 - - - C1 12.. 9 ...5 - - - - - - 51 38 17



    51 matches .... 38 goals ..... 17 ....Assists .. !



    ....https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2008–09_FC_Barcelona_season
     
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  2. Wiliam Felipe Gracek

    Santos FC
    France
    Feb 3, 2024
  3. Wiliam Felipe Gracek

    Santos FC
    France
    Feb 3, 2024
  4. Wiliam Felipe Gracek

    Santos FC
    France
    Feb 3, 2024
  5. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel BigSoccer Yellow Card

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    #1255 PuckVanHeel, Oct 1, 2024
    Last edited: Oct 1, 2024
    Was away for a week; I see now this was uploaded on YT the previous week (Gullit cameo on 1:41)




    More impressive though are his (non-PK) numbers in 2004-05 when the Premier League was actually #1 in Europe.
    https://fbref.com/en/comps/9/2004-2005/stats/2004-2005-Premier-League-Stats#all_stats_standard

    Typically, we only received one Ballon d'Or point that year (R. de Boer with one point, by the Dutch voter; CL topscorer Litmanen received zero points!). In the FIFA thing R. de Boer and Davids received one point each (Van Basten, who was retired, also received points :D ).

    This has been an ever constant the last 30 years. In 1996 Ajax reached the CL final, Feyenoord the CWC semi-final, and also in the UEFA Cup final there was an Oranje key player (Witschge, who you mentioned yourself). Euro 1996 (quarter-final) was indeed a flop.

    Press the button long enough and it becomes eventually true. With enough ammunition for the usual ones to treat them as decoration for the real greats.

    Iniesta announced today that in a week time he will announce his retirement, lol :ROFLMAO: An announcement for the announcement. This is what football and 'branding' has become. You can all be sure someone as KDB will just be an afterthought...
     
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  6. Wiliam Felipe Gracek

    Santos FC
    France
    Feb 3, 2024



    ........


    ....Dennis Bergkamp you knows it ... that i don't like him at all ....


    for Bad Behaviour in Big Matches or in Big Finals Trembles in Big matches .. ... with Holland National Team Side and Clubs in General ... for sure only 0, 47 % accuracy % ..at average


    at Video no Shows him of being Ambi-dextrous Player ..


    only showing Dennis Bergkamp .; with right foot .job......


    is very very one Foot ..only ... like David Beckham ....






    But ...


    even i don't loving Dennis Bergkamp ..




    I can't to deny


    that Dennis Bergkamp ..

    He was one of the best of all time in Pass deeper " The Assassin or Killer Ball " " " Vision in the final Pass "

    in this Attribute

    he is out of this World.. with higher Level for sure ..even better than First Touch Skills ..

    is not normal..this higher quality on this or in this attribute .



    ....

    ..
    But it remains to show the him ambidextrous side

    ...

    honestly i don't saw on this Video ... 1995/96 ...




    you took the Lance against Ruud Gullit .... hahahahahaahha




    in the second half Gullit gave lessons and taught Dennis the real football..


    hahahahha !!
     
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  7. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel BigSoccer Yellow Card

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    I think he was also very skilled with his left honestly. For example this here at 3:12 (just a bit further also 4:55). Cross with his left at 3:05. Here 4:25 through-ball with his left on a difficult field etc. I think there is more than enough. You say he flopped in big matches but we already talked about this; I don't quite agree (vs Brazil in 1998 arguably yes, many others no).
     
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  8. Wiliam Felipe Gracek

    Santos FC
    France
    Feb 3, 2024


    Very Good Player at Average 0, 37 % goals .... 0, 30 Assists % ! was a Good player in All the possible Attributes on game . !


    on my view ...


    Dennis Bergkamp .

    was slightly better than ... Roberto Baggio ...Ronaldinho Gaucho ...Michael Laudrup ..Jay Jay Okocha ..Francesco Totti ..




    is closer Of Zinedine Zidane and Alessandro Del Piero ... !
     
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  9. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel BigSoccer Yellow Card

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    They are in some respects (very) different players but I am not sure about Zidane, Del Piero and Laudrup. I'd agree about the others you mentioned. In particular I don't know how people can arrive to the conclusion Baggio was better than him - for me the bandwidth for that sum is small.

    As I said, Zidane was (imho) especially good in evening games. How to weigh this? For the ordinary league games you can make a case a few others in that list were as good/better and/or more crucial for their team success. Okocha was hit and miss; I don't think he is at the level of the others or at the level of other Africans (I think Kanu was a better player and was also valuable for top level teams).
     
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  10. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel BigSoccer Yellow Card

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    #1260 PuckVanHeel, Oct 2, 2024
    Last edited: Oct 2, 2024
    According to this infographic he scored about 1/3rd of his Arsenal goals with his left foot. I don't know if that is 100% correct but I do know that he was good at it. They only track this though since 2006 therefore RvP is high up in 'weak foot goals' (he was for a decade #1, now it is Son) but Bergkamp is not on the list. I already said he's probably my favorite non-Feyenoord player.

    I like this one, combined with the commentary "if the right won't do the left will, thank you very much" (5:15):


    When I searched for that I saw these comments too from last weekend, yes (but FFT et al. will continue to make their top 25/top 30 devoid of Orange, won't they? With also KDB placed far below Gerrard,Scholes et al.). It is in a way weird to drop such comparison when someone scores three/four goals (there are compatriots with four non-penalty goals in one EPL game.. who are they?); also difficult to compare across time of course with now fouls per game 40-50% lower and such.

    P.S. his farewell game attracted 1.8 million television viewers in the country - kick-off was 17:30 local time. That's pretty impressive. The free-to-air PSV Champions League game (1-1 final result, PSV should have won really with all those chances) of yesterday for example had half a million (digital included), at a more favorable time. Matchday 1 for Feyenoord and PSV had both about 450000. It's even slightly higher than the 1.7 million of the recent 'Holland'-Germany game. This was shown at the closing of the ten-o-clock news broadcast. As already said in this thread, also confirmed by feyenoordsoccerfan, Arsenal is historically the most popular club in the (province) Holland.

    edit: "Palmer, who comes across like a decent lad if not a lively mind as such, mumbled that it was all a bit before his time although he’d seen some clips online. Subtext: u wot grandad?"
    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/football/2024/09/30/cole-palmer-match-of-the-day-gen-z-dennis-bergkamp/
     
  11. Letmepost

    Letmepost Member

    Arsenal
    South Korea
    Apr 11, 2023
    Dennis Bergkamp was the sole reason I started to like Arsenal as a team, but his flexibility as a pure goal-scorer was not his greatest asset in my opinion.

    https://www.arsenal.com/news/features/dennis-bergkamp

    It does seem like his two-footedness was less evident if you restrict the tally to English Premier League games only. 14 English Premier League left-footed goals, is not bad, but nothing outstanding either.

    If the tally of 44 left-footed goals in the infographic is used as the reference point, and utilized to compare him to other great Arsenal goal-scorers such as Thierry Henry and Ian Wright, it does look like Dennis Bergkamp was the most two-footed player out of the names mentioned (in terms of ratio, Thierry Henry might have greater absolute count of left-footed goals since he scored 228 goals for the club overall as a final tally).

    https://www.skysports.com/football/news/2351926/opta-analyse-henry-record

    I think assists and pre-assists might be Dennis Bergkamp's defining statistic, although they are somewhat hard to come-by, and define accurately.



    If the above list is correct, Dennis Bergkamp has around 187 goal contributions via assists and pre-assists for the club.
     
  12. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel BigSoccer Yellow Card

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    He also scored at a much higher rate in the 'rare' games Henry did not play. That famous Newcastle goal was without Henry, and his very last Arsenal goal was also without Henry.
     
  13. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel BigSoccer Yellow Card

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    Yes, 'the [single] most skillful', bar none, who needed 110+ shots to score 7 non-penalty goals in a season (1986-87). That screams he is the *single* most skillful in history.

    For me he is the greatest fraud ever, bar none (aside from a pedophile, women smasher, racist and antisemite). Who handballed his way to every one of his achievements.

    30/04/1991:
    "At the last World Cup in Italy, he must also have been pumped full of narcotics. Otherwise, there is no way to explain how he played the entire tournament, while he could barely put on his shoes due to an irritated ankle.

    His teammates remain silent, but they must have known about it. And - to a certain extent - participated. Argentine football is saturated with doping and escaping the rules. Three weeks before the 1978 World Cup in Argentina, the team doctor of the Argentine selection let famously slip. "I have already won the World Cup," he assured a group of journalists.

    A statement that confirms the story that the Argentine national team massively evaded doping tests at the World Cups. Maradona, the footballer and person, was formed in that culture. No one cared about the possible consequences.

    Not even his family. They fear that they will no longer be allowed to live at his expense if they spill the beans or correct him. President Menem profited from the star as long as it resulted in a positive image.

    Now that this is no longer the case, he drops him like a ton of bricks. When the 30-year-old international was in jail, Menem relieved him of his duties as advisor and sports ambassador.

    Maradona's current advisor, Mario Franchi, still sees light in the darkness. After he got him out on bail on Sunday, he found 'another Maradona'. "Like he used to be. Today, the new Maradona was born."

    Some newspapers also remain loyal to him. They reported that the football wizard had five hundred sandwiches delivered to the prison as a treat for his fellow inmates."
    https://resolver.kb.nl/resolve?urn=ABCDDD:010845865:mpeg21:a0057

    But maybe there is justice after all (50% poverty rate among the viveza masses!), and punishment by a deity. God maybe exists.

    I wouldn't say though he is (close to) a candidate for the most overrated ever. Then I rather think of someone as Garrincha, Gerd Muller or in more recent times people as Baggio and Maldini. Ronaldinho arguably (not Ronaldo!!).
     
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  14. Wiliam Felipe Gracek

    Santos FC
    France
    Feb 3, 2024



    .....


    Dennis Bergkamp at Arsenal Years ...


    423 matches
    120 goals
    0, 28 % Goals


    423 matches
    187 Assists and Pre-Assists Counted ..
    0, 44 % Assists ...Pre-Assists ...



    0, 72 % G+A+PA ... 72 ...Points ...


    ...

    Netherlands squadUEFA Euro 1992 semi-finalists

    Netherlands squad1994 FIFA World Cup

    Netherlands squadUEFA Euro 1996

    Netherlands squad1998 FIFA World Cup fourth place

    Netherlands squadUEFA Euro 2000 semi-finalists




    by National Team Side ==== Nothing ....
    unfortunately
     
  15. Wiliam Felipe Gracek

    Santos FC
    France
    Feb 3, 2024



    As a Person i don't like Diego Maradona also ..!





    but the Player is another Story at all...






    Dennis Bergkamp at Arsenal Years ...


    423 matches
    120 goals
    0, 28 % Goals


    423 matches
    187 Assists and Pre-Assists Counted ..
    0, 44 % Assists ...Pre-Assists ...



    0, 72 % G+A+PA ... 72 ...Points ...


    ...

    Netherlands squadUEFA Euro 1992 semi-finalists

    Netherlands squad1994 FIFA World Cup

    Netherlands squadUEFA Euro 1996

    Netherlands squad1998 FIFA World Cup fourth place

    Netherlands squadUEFA Euro 2000 semi-finalists




    by National Team Side ==== Nothing ....
    unfortunately






    for example ...


    Michel Platini ...

    has 100 Points for Juventus Years




    Marco van Basten

    has 94 Points ...For Ac Milan Years ....




    Ronaldinho Gaucho


    has 91 Points ..For Barcelona Years ....




    Michael Laudrup ..

    has 70 Points ..For Barcelona Years ...
     
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  16. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel BigSoccer Yellow Card

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    #1266 PuckVanHeel, Oct 3, 2024
    Last edited: Oct 3, 2024
    I mentioned this before but the 'other' forgotten Newcastle game from that very same month was actually a better performance (this game was also without Henry, and with a goal).

    The game with the pirouette had also the assist for the 2-0 win by him - Newcastle was a close rival in the table at the time.



    I mentioned his last Arsenal goal above (and Alan Hansen his commentary at 9:12), but there is for example also an FA Cup game vs Middlesbrough in 2004 where Ljungberg and Bergkamp formed the strike partnership and both scored the goals on the day (without Henry), this very same Middlesbrough placed their unbeaten run in jeopardy a little later (surpassing Nottingham Forest).

    The only league game superstar/main star Henry did not play in the famous unbeaten 2003-04 league season was this one (Bergkamp did not score, no, but he had the assist for the only goal - Leicester equalized in the 93th minute when Arsenal had been playing for 20 minutes with ten, and Bergkamp was like the striker also off by the way).

    Virgil van Dijk was close to signing for Arsenal in 2014/2015 (!!), but I think it is fair to say it was for him the correct choice to go another path (also knowing: top clubs in England rarely sold/sell their mainstays to other top teams).

    "Bergkamp still holds the key to Arsenal success

    By Gary Jacob and Oliver Kay Wednesday August 25 2004, 1.00am BST, The Times

    AT TIMES against Middlesbrough, it appeared that Arsenal were burdened by the chance to pull level with Nottingham Forest’s record of 42 league matches undefeated. The bulk of the weight should be lifted with victory over Blackburn Rovers tonight, although attention will then switch to predicting the end of the run.
    Arsenal’s comeback from 3-1 down to beat Middlesbrough 5-3, prompted by the splendour of Dennis Bergkamp, showed a fortitude and a formidable talent. [...] “At the moment he’s in exceptional shape,” Wenger said. “He’s sharper than last year at the same period, so I adapt to his form and his age. He runs like a 20-year-old but you have to accept that the recovery time is longer. He has a real role to play. We speak sometimes about it but he knows it. (Robin) Van Persie, (Jermaine) Pennant and all these players look up to him.”
    https://www.thetimes.com/article/bergkamp-still-holds-the-key-to-arsenal-success-cjt5rz930kw
    https://www.theguardian.com/football/2004/aug/22/newsstory.sport10
     
  17. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel BigSoccer Yellow Card

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    Just curious but do you have a source for this? :)
     
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  18. Letmepost

    Letmepost Member

    Arsenal
    South Korea
    Apr 11, 2023
    I personally don't rank the individual destructive ability of Dennis Bergkamp that highly (compared to some he is being compared to), and that is indeed a valuable asset in itself. In order to assert a player's own narrative, it is just better to stick to a exhibitionist playstyle, that best showcases that player's individual destructive prowess, without necessarily thinking too much about the surrounding circumstances and balance of personnel, and stick with that selfish plan until all the stars align, or wait until those around that player, succumbs to that player's will.

    However, in terms of adjusting his own role and playstyle in order to make those around him better, I cannot think of a single second-striker that I have watched extensively, that ranks above Dennis Bergkamp. Has there ever been a strike-partner that did not like playing with Dennis Bergkamp? He was so multi-talented, and was willing to use those assets to serve the team's needs, not display his own talents as if football was a staged dance show. It was nuanced, and slightly different every time.

    It comes at a price (his own legacy), but those that play with him must appreciate his selfless (it is not the same as being creative or playing in a deeper role, there are a lot of stubborn and self-serving creative players who only play to their own demands) playstyle.

    As a thought experiment, how well would a prime Dennis Bergkamp pair with a young and healthy Ruud Gullit? I drool at the thought of such a partnership.
     
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  19. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel BigSoccer Yellow Card

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    #1269 PuckVanHeel, Oct 3, 2024
    Last edited: Oct 3, 2024
    Gullit combined very well with Roberto Mancini - when playing as the two up front (was not always the case) - so in principle it should work well. Maybe some will question whether they have enough goals in them but I personally don't see it that way. The Sampdoria team Gullit played for wasn't too far away from winning the league, either (when Serie A was at its arguable peak).

    Certainly at club level, where you can work towards a situation with multiple shooting outlets, it will be fine on paper. When Arsenal won the league in 2001-02, Henry had 'only' 20 non penalty goals. In 2003-04 'only' 23 goals. You did not need 50 in that period of time.

    Here at the very beginning, with Gullit playing on the right, you can see Gullit passing the ball to him from deep.


    Fun fact is that José Mourinho his favorite player was Gullit and named his dog 'Gullit' when he was still managing in Portugal. 'For Mourinho, Gullit was "an unbelievable player... an attacking, creative player but, at the same time, with fitness, power, mental strength."

    Interestingly, in that Rio Ferdinand episode from last summer Gullit mentions Thierry Henry as someone who was a bit like him - if true, that would mean the tandem will work fine. They're both Amsterdammers of course.

    In his pre-Arsenal years Bergkamp was imho more of that individual destructor, so to speak. I don't think it was his mindset (bursting through triple covers etc. - as Robben vs Benfica did in his very last CL game), as you reference, but he could do it. Arguably not like Ronaldo Fenomeno or 'the 1986 Maradona', but he was fast and capable. For his first European goal (aged 18) he shows a bit of pace against Tapie's Marseille (2:35).

    Then later at a matured age (23 and 1 month) here at 0:20 or deep in extra time still enough pace at 5:50; both scenes show some astute judgement of the situation I'd say.


    See also for glimpses of that pace (1:09; another goal is at 1:38):



    This scene was against Sammer's Borussia Dortmund in the UEFA Cup that he won with Inter as topscorer (1:30 is against Baggio's Juventus where he wins a penalty and the points for his team).

    It has been mentioned before but when he was older, in 2003-04 he had reportedly the 3rd fastest 100m sprint of the Arsenal squad (yes, 100m is not the same as 10 or 20 meters). Then I always think of this:

    (the sprint at 3:52 - Vieira did not play, he was captain)

    It is maybe a bit like how Reijnders often does not show it (for ex. in the excellent match against Inter recently; the only thing The Athletic said about him was that he was "superb") but sporadically and infrequently shows the pace when called upon (vs Germany recently with the goal he scored).

    Unpopular opinion: I like Reijnders more than Gravenberch, as it stands now, from what I have seen.
     
  20. Wiliam Felipe Gracek

    Santos FC
    France
    Feb 3, 2024




    .....

    upload_2024-10-3_20-15-25.png




    RESEARCH MAN !
     
  21. Wiliam Felipe Gracek

    Santos FC
    France
    Feb 3, 2024
  22. Trachta10

    Trachta10 Member+

    Apr 25, 2016
    Club:
    CA Boca Juniors
    Stats in Finals

    Pelé
    Matches: 31
    Goals: 31
    Assists: 19
    Non-Opta: 6
    Team Contribution 56/80: 70%
    Clutch Contribution 21/33: 63.64%

    [​IMG]


    Messi
    Matches: 49
    Goals: 35
    Assists: 15
    Non-Opta: 4
    Team Contribution 54/93: 58.06%
    Clutch Contribution 32/48: 66.67%

    [​IMG]


    Neymar
    Matches: 34
    Goals: 21
    Assists: 5
    Non-Opta: 3
    Team Contribution 29/50: 58%
    Clutch Contribution 17/26: 65.38%

    [​IMG]


    C.Ronaldo
    Matches: 38
    Goals: 23
    Assists: 2
    Non-Opta: 1
    Team Contribution 26/54: 48.15%
    Clutch Contribution 19/37: 51.35%

    [​IMG]
     
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  23. Wiliam Felipe Gracek

    Santos FC
    France
    Feb 3, 2024




    Is missing the own average Of Players ... in general !
     
  24. Wiliam Felipe Gracek

    Santos FC
    France
    Feb 3, 2024




    1# PELÉ ....... 1, 80 %...... BEHAVIOUR IN BIG FINALS ...
    2# MESSI ........ 1, 10 % ...BEHAVIOUR IN BIG FINALS
    3# NEYMAR JR ..... 0, 85 % ....BEHAVIOUR IN BIG FINALS
    4# C . RONALDO ..... 0, 68 %...........BEHAVIOUR IN BIG FINALS
     

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