Who is the most overrated all time great?

Wiliam Felipe Gracek · Sep 18, 2024

PuckVanHeel said: ↑

We have gone over this before. Better penalty taking would have helped *a lot*. Better officiating as well (but that is utopia and unthinkable). You said that last thing yourself. Not three times a German in a row. Not some wacky Italian protecting Tah for 20 minutes and then say he has to be subbed off. While England and their tabloids has a track record in ending the careers of officials and referees.

The way I see it (simplistically) is that there has been a concerted effort to slowly push us out from top level football and sh*t on us. Deep down The Athletic wants to see Arne Slot fail - you can sense it. There is a closed shop formed, like Test countries in cricket (or how in the 17th century France, England and Prussia joined together, more than once, to hack down 1.5 million Dutch Republicans, which ultimately cost us access to coal andsoforth). The social media lemmings also want that. They want a rigged super league. One self-referential circle of top level football. It has no meritocracy any more (Liverpool yes, wanted to move up and thus went for the 'cheaper' options; the already established Real Madrids go for Rudigers, Dias and so on). Little wonder the viewing figures have plumeted over here. What was once 2.5 million at a bare minimum is now 400000 for Juventus vs PSV.

That also relates to the enormous discrepancy between the total volume of CL goals since 1992 (or the results at tournaments, the high Premier League goals volume etc.) and the Ballon d'Or rankings of the past 30 years, since 1994. It just doesn’t sell very well or caters to a big market. It works quite clearly the same in individual sports where excellence or 'being better' is easier to measure - there can be no doubt here. In the Laureus type of stuff Spanish and English mediocrity gets picked up earlier than excellence by others (in the same branch of sport).

I'd say at club level people as De Bruyne or Bergkamp are not very far removed from Zidane, no. De Bruyne as I said was already in his thirties when he came close to a top five position in the Ballon d'Or. Before this he saw various other Premier League and England people ahead. Bergkamp remains the oldest with 10+ assists in the Premier League (and was 3rd most productive of the league then). Van Dijk has been nominated only twice in his career; this will inevitably not help his standing.

This is what Glanville wrote when he scored his last Arsenal goal:

Arsenal 3 West Brom 1: Bergkamp answers call

Brian Glanville at Highbury
Sunday April 16 2006, 1.00am BST, The Sunday Times
And Bergkamp it was, on 89 minutes, receiving from Emmanuel Eboue, who calmly and irresistibly slammed a right-footed shot wide of Tomasz Kuszczak in the Albion goal to secure maximum points for Arsenal.
“I think it was disrespectful,” declared his manager Arsène Wenger afterwards, “to say to Dennis, you came on because it was your day. I really felt we needed his vision. We needed somebody because (Robin) Van Persie looked tired and (Alexander) Hleb looked tired.”
Bergkamp will retire this summer and Arsenal may find him irreplaceable. Time after time, whether playing up front, never his favourite role, or just behind the striker, he has shown himself, in the old Italian phrase, “capable of inventing the game”. In other words, of doing the unexpected.
The huge advance in form recently made by the precocious Francesc Fabregas means that Bergkamp may now have a successor. Yesterday, as at Portsmouth in midweek, Fabregas was not used, Wenger anxious to have him fit for the Champions League semi-final first leg against Villarreal at Highbury on Wednesday.
Bryan Robson, the manager of Albion, who once again stares relegation bleakly in the face, was convinced his team should have had a penalty when they were behind 2-1. “How the referee (Mike Dean) missed the penalty, I don’t know,” he said.
He was convinced, and he was not alone, that Eboue fouled the excellent defender Curtis Davies. “It cost us the game,” he said.
Well, not really, although Davies was arguably the finest player on the field.
In Robson’s view, however, after the equaliser: “We got too excitable. We allowed Arsenal too many spaces to counter- attack, which they’re good at.”
Wenger was probably right to say his team made “at least 10 chances today”, but they were somewhat profligate in exploiting them and the first half would be 44 minutes long before they ultimately scored. The visitors were predictably cautious, with only Diomansy Kamara up front and Kanu, once a favourite at Highbury, floating around behind him.
Arsenal should have gone ahead in the fifth minute when Van Persie threaded a perfect ball to Abou Diaby. But Diaby, who had abundant time to shoot or pass to effect, did neither.
It was another 18 minutes before Van Persie and Thierry Henry fashioned an opportunity for Jose Antonio Reyes, but his shot was deflected behind for a corner. And when Gilberto put a strangely ineffectual Henry through, he could do no better than to shoot wide of the right-hand post.
On 40 minutes, a long left-wing cross from Van Persie enabled Gilberto to shoot solidly but equally solid was the response of Kuszczak.
It was four minutes later that Arsenal scored what was unquestionably a spectacular goal, a small marvel of technique on the part of their Belarus right-sided midfielder, Hleb. Receiving from Reyes, Hleb, with supreme virtuosity, danced past a couple of defenders in the box, took a return from Henry and shot high into the net with his left foot.
But the floodgates failed to open. When, early in the second half, Kuszczak lost a high cross on the right-hand side of the area and central defender Philippe Senderos played the ball back, Neil Clement resourcefully nodded the ball behind for a corner.
Ten minutes later Bergkamp arrived, to the special delight of those Arsenal fans in the lower tier of the North Stand who were wearing bright orange Holland jerseys. But in the next minute, the 72nd, Eboue slipped in the penalty area, Kolo Toure failed to block and Nigel Quashie thumped a left-footed drive past Jens Lehmann. Four minutes more, however, and Arsenal, now breathlessly in pursuit of their fierce rivals, Tottenham, whom they play here next Saturday, had regained the lead. A long, splendidly adventurous crossfield pass from left to right by Mathieu Flamini reached Emmanuel Adebayor, who had replaced Henry. When he crossed, Pires’s shot was blocked, but Bergkamp hooked the ball back again and this time Pires scored.
Then came the episode of the penalty that never was before Bergkamp struck a minute from the end to send the Arsenal supporters home happy.
How much better the Gunners might have done in Europe had the Dutchman not suffered from a fear of flying after a bomb scare on a plane carrying the Holland side some 12 years ago.
[...]
https://www.thetimes.com/article/arsenal-3-west-brom-1-bergkamp-answers-call-r2zm2qwzbsl

--------------------------

"You simply cannot find a player to replace Dennis because players of that quality are non-existent at the moment," he said.
[...]
"You never see him drinking, you never see him out and, between 30 and 37, that will make a huge difference," Wenger said. "He will be 36 in May. To play up front at that age [for a top team], you don't find that. I think he gets rewarded for the quality of his life."
https://www.theguardian.com/football/2005/feb/16/newsstory.sport6
https://www.uefa.com/uefachampionsl...8c48151-1000--wenger-wooed-by-bergkamp-class/

What Alan Hansen says at 9:15

Click to expand...

When i saw

PuckVanHeel said: ↑

We have gone over this before. Better penalty taking would have helped *a lot*. Better officiating as well (but that is utopia and unthinkable). You said that last thing yourself. Not three times a German in a row. Not some wacky Italian protecting Tah for 20 minutes and then say he has to be subbed off. While England and their tabloids has a track record in ending the careers of officials and referees.

The way I see it (simplistically) is that there has been a concerted effort to slowly push us out from top level football and sh*t on us. Deep down The Athletic wants to see Arne Slot fail - you can sense it. There is a closed shop formed, like Test countries in cricket (or how in the 17th century France, England and Prussia joined together, more than once, to hack down 1.5 million Dutch Republicans, which ultimately cost us access to coal andsoforth). The social media lemmings also want that. They want a rigged super league. One self-referential circle of top level football. It has no meritocracy any more (Liverpool yes, wanted to move up and thus went for the 'cheaper' options; the already established Real Madrids go for Rudigers, Dias and so on). Little wonder the viewing figures have plumeted over here. What was once 2.5 million at a bare minimum is now 400000 for Juventus vs PSV.

That also relates to the enormous discrepancy between the total volume of CL goals since 1992 (or the results at tournaments, the high Premier League goals volume etc.) and the Ballon d'Or rankings of the past 30 years, since 1994. It just doesn’t sell very well or caters to a big market. It works quite clearly the same in individual sports where excellence or 'being better' is easier to measure - there can be no doubt here. In the Laureus type of stuff Spanish and English mediocrity gets picked up earlier than excellence by others (in the same branch of sport).

I'd say at club level people as De Bruyne or Bergkamp are not very far removed from Zidane, no. De Bruyne as I said was already in his thirties when he came close to a top five position in the Ballon d'Or. Before this he saw various other Premier League and England people ahead. Bergkamp remains the oldest with 10+ assists in the Premier League (and was 3rd most productive of the league then). Van Dijk has been nominated only twice in his career; this will inevitably not help his standing.

This is what Glanville wrote when he scored his last Arsenal goal:

Arsenal 3 West Brom 1: Bergkamp answers call

Brian Glanville at Highbury
Sunday April 16 2006, 1.00am BST, The Sunday Times
And Bergkamp it was, on 89 minutes, receiving from Emmanuel Eboue, who calmly and irresistibly slammed a right-footed shot wide of Tomasz Kuszczak in the Albion goal to secure maximum points for Arsenal.
“I think it was disrespectful,” declared his manager Arsène Wenger afterwards, “to say to Dennis, you came on because it was your day. I really felt we needed his vision. We needed somebody because (Robin) Van Persie looked tired and (Alexander) Hleb looked tired.”
Bergkamp will retire this summer and Arsenal may find him irreplaceable. Time after time, whether playing up front, never his favourite role, or just behind the striker, he has shown himself, in the old Italian phrase, “capable of inventing the game”. In other words, of doing the unexpected.
The huge advance in form recently made by the precocious Francesc Fabregas means that Bergkamp may now have a successor. Yesterday, as at Portsmouth in midweek, Fabregas was not used, Wenger anxious to have him fit for the Champions League semi-final first leg against Villarreal at Highbury on Wednesday.
Bryan Robson, the manager of Albion, who once again stares relegation bleakly in the face, was convinced his team should have had a penalty when they were behind 2-1. “How the referee (Mike Dean) missed the penalty, I don’t know,” he said.
He was convinced, and he was not alone, that Eboue fouled the excellent defender Curtis Davies. “It cost us the game,” he said.
Well, not really, although Davies was arguably the finest player on the field.
In Robson’s view, however, after the equaliser: “We got too excitable. We allowed Arsenal too many spaces to counter- attack, which they’re good at.”
Wenger was probably right to say his team made “at least 10 chances today”, but they were somewhat profligate in exploiting them and the first half would be 44 minutes long before they ultimately scored. The visitors were predictably cautious, with only Diomansy Kamara up front and Kanu, once a favourite at Highbury, floating around behind him.
Arsenal should have gone ahead in the fifth minute when Van Persie threaded a perfect ball to Abou Diaby. But Diaby, who had abundant time to shoot or pass to effect, did neither.
It was another 18 minutes before Van Persie and Thierry Henry fashioned an opportunity for Jose Antonio Reyes, but his shot was deflected behind for a corner. And when Gilberto put a strangely ineffectual Henry through, he could do no better than to shoot wide of the right-hand post.
On 40 minutes, a long left-wing cross from Van Persie enabled Gilberto to shoot solidly but equally solid was the response of Kuszczak.
It was four minutes later that Arsenal scored what was unquestionably a spectacular goal, a small marvel of technique on the part of their Belarus right-sided midfielder, Hleb. Receiving from Reyes, Hleb, with supreme virtuosity, danced past a couple of defenders in the box, took a return from Henry and shot high into the net with his left foot.
But the floodgates failed to open. When, early in the second half, Kuszczak lost a high cross on the right-hand side of the area and central defender Philippe Senderos played the ball back, Neil Clement resourcefully nodded the ball behind for a corner.
Ten minutes later Bergkamp arrived, to the special delight of those Arsenal fans in the lower tier of the North Stand who were wearing bright orange Holland jerseys. But in the next minute, the 72nd, Eboue slipped in the penalty area, Kolo Toure failed to block and Nigel Quashie thumped a left-footed drive past Jens Lehmann. Four minutes more, however, and Arsenal, now breathlessly in pursuit of their fierce rivals, Tottenham, whom they play here next Saturday, had regained the lead. A long, splendidly adventurous crossfield pass from left to right by Mathieu Flamini reached Emmanuel Adebayor, who had replaced Henry. When he crossed, Pires’s shot was blocked, but Bergkamp hooked the ball back again and this time Pires scored.
Then came the episode of the penalty that never was before Bergkamp struck a minute from the end to send the Arsenal supporters home happy.
How much better the Gunners might have done in Europe had the Dutchman not suffered from a fear of flying after a bomb scare on a plane carrying the Holland side some 12 years ago.
[...]
https://www.thetimes.com/article/arsenal-3-west-brom-1-bergkamp-answers-call-r2zm2qwzbsl

--------------------------

"You simply cannot find a player to replace Dennis because players of that quality are non-existent at the moment," he said.
[...]
"You never see him drinking, you never see him out and, between 30 and 37, that will make a huge difference," Wenger said. "He will be 36 in May. To play up front at that age [for a top team], you don't find that. I think he gets rewarded for the quality of his life."
https://www.theguardian.com/football/2005/feb/16/newsstory.sport6
https://www.uefa.com/uefachampionsl...8c48151-1000--wenger-wooed-by-bergkamp-class/

What Alan Hansen says at 9:15

Click to expand...

When i saw some whole Matches ... Alessandro Del Piero in big finals ...for Juventus ..times

I realize that Alessandro Del Piero ... was .. the real
protagonist for Juventus Turin ... 1996-97 .... 1997-98 ...1998-99

not Zidane ...

Zidane ..came ...

after Alessandro Del Piero ... a grave injury ...

.... when ... Zizou ... gave ... 13 assists or 15 assists ... 2000-01 ..Serie A Calcio ...

But before ... Del Piero ..was
the real
protagonist for Juventus ...

Del Piero ..

0, 75 % behaviour in Big finals ..

vs

Zidane

0, 59 % behaviour in Big finals...

.....

Wiliam Felipe Gracek · Sep 19, 2024

PuckVanHeel said: ↑

We have gone over this before. Better penalty taking would have helped *a lot*. Better officiating as well (but that is utopia and unthinkable). You said that last thing yourself. Not three times a German in a row. Not some wacky Italian protecting Tah for 20 minutes and then say he has to be subbed off. While England and their tabloids has a track record in ending the careers of officials and referees.

The way I see it (simplistically) is that there has been a concerted effort to slowly push us out from top level football and sh*t on us. Deep down The Athletic wants to see Arne Slot fail - you can sense it. There is a closed shop formed, like Test countries in cricket (or how in the 17th century France, England and Prussia joined together, more than once, to hack down 1.5 million Dutch Republicans, which ultimately cost us access to coal andsoforth). The social media lemmings also want that. They want a rigged super league. One self-referential circle of top level football. It has no meritocracy any more (Liverpool yes, wanted to move up and thus went for the 'cheaper' options; the already established Real Madrids go for Rudigers, Dias and so on). Little wonder the viewing figures have plumeted over here. What was once 2.5 million at a bare minimum is now 400000 for Juventus vs PSV.

That also relates to the enormous discrepancy between the total volume of CL goals since 1992 (or the results at tournaments, the high Premier League goals volume etc.) and the Ballon d'Or rankings of the past 30 years, since 1994. It just doesn’t sell very well or caters to a big market. It works quite clearly the same in individual sports where excellence or 'being better' is easier to measure - there can be no doubt here. In the Laureus type of stuff Spanish and English mediocrity gets picked up earlier than excellence by others (in the same branch of sport).

I'd say at club level people as De Bruyne or Bergkamp are not very far removed from Zidane, no. De Bruyne as I said was already in his thirties when he came close to a top five position in the Ballon d'Or. Before this he saw various other Premier League and England people ahead. Bergkamp remains the oldest with 10+ assists in the Premier League (and was 3rd most productive of the league then). Van Dijk has been nominated only twice in his career; this will inevitably not help his standing.

This is what Glanville wrote when he scored his last Arsenal goal:

Arsenal 3 West Brom 1: Bergkamp answers call

Brian Glanville at Highbury
Sunday April 16 2006, 1.00am BST, The Sunday Times
And Bergkamp it was, on 89 minutes, receiving from Emmanuel Eboue, who calmly and irresistibly slammed a right-footed shot wide of Tomasz Kuszczak in the Albion goal to secure maximum points for Arsenal.
“I think it was disrespectful,” declared his manager Arsène Wenger afterwards, “to say to Dennis, you came on because it was your day. I really felt we needed his vision. We needed somebody because (Robin) Van Persie looked tired and (Alexander) Hleb looked tired.”
Bergkamp will retire this summer and Arsenal may find him irreplaceable. Time after time, whether playing up front, never his favourite role, or just behind the striker, he has shown himself, in the old Italian phrase, “capable of inventing the game”. In other words, of doing the unexpected.
The huge advance in form recently made by the precocious Francesc Fabregas means that Bergkamp may now have a successor. Yesterday, as at Portsmouth in midweek, Fabregas was not used, Wenger anxious to have him fit for the Champions League semi-final first leg against Villarreal at Highbury on Wednesday.
Bryan Robson, the manager of Albion, who once again stares relegation bleakly in the face, was convinced his team should have had a penalty when they were behind 2-1. “How the referee (Mike Dean) missed the penalty, I don’t know,” he said.
He was convinced, and he was not alone, that Eboue fouled the excellent defender Curtis Davies. “It cost us the game,” he said.
Well, not really, although Davies was arguably the finest player on the field.
In Robson’s view, however, after the equaliser: “We got too excitable. We allowed Arsenal too many spaces to counter- attack, which they’re good at.”
Wenger was probably right to say his team made “at least 10 chances today”, but they were somewhat profligate in exploiting them and the first half would be 44 minutes long before they ultimately scored. The visitors were predictably cautious, with only Diomansy Kamara up front and Kanu, once a favourite at Highbury, floating around behind him.
Arsenal should have gone ahead in the fifth minute when Van Persie threaded a perfect ball to Abou Diaby. But Diaby, who had abundant time to shoot or pass to effect, did neither.
It was another 18 minutes before Van Persie and Thierry Henry fashioned an opportunity for Jose Antonio Reyes, but his shot was deflected behind for a corner. And when Gilberto put a strangely ineffectual Henry through, he could do no better than to shoot wide of the right-hand post.
On 40 minutes, a long left-wing cross from Van Persie enabled Gilberto to shoot solidly but equally solid was the response of Kuszczak.
It was four minutes later that Arsenal scored what was unquestionably a spectacular goal, a small marvel of technique on the part of their Belarus right-sided midfielder, Hleb. Receiving from Reyes, Hleb, with supreme virtuosity, danced past a couple of defenders in the box, took a return from Henry and shot high into the net with his left foot.
But the floodgates failed to open. When, early in the second half, Kuszczak lost a high cross on the right-hand side of the area and central defender Philippe Senderos played the ball back, Neil Clement resourcefully nodded the ball behind for a corner.
Ten minutes later Bergkamp arrived, to the special delight of those Arsenal fans in the lower tier of the North Stand who were wearing bright orange Holland jerseys. But in the next minute, the 72nd, Eboue slipped in the penalty area, Kolo Toure failed to block and Nigel Quashie thumped a left-footed drive past Jens Lehmann. Four minutes more, however, and Arsenal, now breathlessly in pursuit of their fierce rivals, Tottenham, whom they play here next Saturday, had regained the lead. A long, splendidly adventurous crossfield pass from left to right by Mathieu Flamini reached Emmanuel Adebayor, who had replaced Henry. When he crossed, Pires’s shot was blocked, but Bergkamp hooked the ball back again and this time Pires scored.
Then came the episode of the penalty that never was before Bergkamp struck a minute from the end to send the Arsenal supporters home happy.
How much better the Gunners might have done in Europe had the Dutchman not suffered from a fear of flying after a bomb scare on a plane carrying the Holland side some 12 years ago.
[...]
https://www.thetimes.com/article/arsenal-3-west-brom-1-bergkamp-answers-call-r2zm2qwzbsl

--------------------------

"You simply cannot find a player to replace Dennis because players of that quality are non-existent at the moment," he said.
[...]
"You never see him drinking, you never see him out and, between 30 and 37, that will make a huge difference," Wenger said. "He will be 36 in May. To play up front at that age [for a top team], you don't find that. I think he gets rewarded for the quality of his life."
https://www.theguardian.com/football/2005/feb/16/newsstory.sport6
https://www.uefa.com/uefachampionsl...8c48151-1000--wenger-wooed-by-bergkamp-class/

What Alan Hansen says at 9:15

Click to expand...

Alessandro Del Piero ..

was the real protagonist ..for Juventus ...

so Why not ... Dennis Bergkamp ... Marco van Basten ... Ruud Gullit of being abit better or slightly better than Zizou " overall player " ?????????

........
Richard Witschge
1995–96 33 7

vs

Zidane

...
1995–96 Division 1 33 6

Wiliam Felipe Gracek · Sep 19, 2024

PuckVanHeel said: ↑

We have gone over this before. Better penalty taking would have helped *a lot*. Better officiating as well (but that is utopia and unthinkable). You said that last thing yourself. Not three times a German in a row. Not some wacky Italian protecting Tah for 20 minutes and then say he has to be subbed off. While England and their tabloids has a track record in ending the careers of officials and referees.

The way I see it (simplistically) is that there has been a concerted effort to slowly push us out from top level football and sh*t on us. Deep down The Athletic wants to see Arne Slot fail - you can sense it. There is a closed shop formed, like Test countries in cricket (or how in the 17th century France, England and Prussia joined together, more than once, to hack down 1.5 million Dutch Republicans, which ultimately cost us access to coal andsoforth). The social media lemmings also want that. They want a rigged super league. One self-referential circle of top level football. It has no meritocracy any more (Liverpool yes, wanted to move up and thus went for the 'cheaper' options; the already established Real Madrids go for Rudigers, Dias and so on). Little wonder the viewing figures have plumeted over here. What was once 2.5 million at a bare minimum is now 400000 for Juventus vs PSV.

That also relates to the enormous discrepancy between the total volume of CL goals since 1992 (or the results at tournaments, the high Premier League goals volume etc.) and the Ballon d'Or rankings of the past 30 years, since 1994. It just doesn’t sell very well or caters to a big market. It works quite clearly the same in individual sports where excellence or 'being better' is easier to measure - there can be no doubt here. In the Laureus type of stuff Spanish and English mediocrity gets picked up earlier than excellence by others (in the same branch of sport).

I'd say at club level people as De Bruyne or Bergkamp are not very far removed from Zidane, no. De Bruyne as I said was already in his thirties when he came close to a top five position in the Ballon d'Or. Before this he saw various other Premier League and England people ahead. Bergkamp remains the oldest with 10+ assists in the Premier League (and was 3rd most productive of the league then). Van Dijk has been nominated only twice in his career; this will inevitably not help his standing.

This is what Glanville wrote when he scored his last Arsenal goal:

Arsenal 3 West Brom 1: Bergkamp answers call

Brian Glanville at Highbury
Sunday April 16 2006, 1.00am BST, The Sunday Times
And Bergkamp it was, on 89 minutes, receiving from Emmanuel Eboue, who calmly and irresistibly slammed a right-footed shot wide of Tomasz Kuszczak in the Albion goal to secure maximum points for Arsenal.
“I think it was disrespectful,” declared his manager Arsène Wenger afterwards, “to say to Dennis, you came on because it was your day. I really felt we needed his vision. We needed somebody because (Robin) Van Persie looked tired and (Alexander) Hleb looked tired.”
Bergkamp will retire this summer and Arsenal may find him irreplaceable. Time after time, whether playing up front, never his favourite role, or just behind the striker, he has shown himself, in the old Italian phrase, “capable of inventing the game”. In other words, of doing the unexpected.
The huge advance in form recently made by the precocious Francesc Fabregas means that Bergkamp may now have a successor. Yesterday, as at Portsmouth in midweek, Fabregas was not used, Wenger anxious to have him fit for the Champions League semi-final first leg against Villarreal at Highbury on Wednesday.
Bryan Robson, the manager of Albion, who once again stares relegation bleakly in the face, was convinced his team should have had a penalty when they were behind 2-1. “How the referee (Mike Dean) missed the penalty, I don’t know,” he said.
He was convinced, and he was not alone, that Eboue fouled the excellent defender Curtis Davies. “It cost us the game,” he said.
Well, not really, although Davies was arguably the finest player on the field.
In Robson’s view, however, after the equaliser: “We got too excitable. We allowed Arsenal too many spaces to counter- attack, which they’re good at.”
Wenger was probably right to say his team made “at least 10 chances today”, but they were somewhat profligate in exploiting them and the first half would be 44 minutes long before they ultimately scored. The visitors were predictably cautious, with only Diomansy Kamara up front and Kanu, once a favourite at Highbury, floating around behind him.
Arsenal should have gone ahead in the fifth minute when Van Persie threaded a perfect ball to Abou Diaby. But Diaby, who had abundant time to shoot or pass to effect, did neither.
It was another 18 minutes before Van Persie and Thierry Henry fashioned an opportunity for Jose Antonio Reyes, but his shot was deflected behind for a corner. And when Gilberto put a strangely ineffectual Henry through, he could do no better than to shoot wide of the right-hand post.
On 40 minutes, a long left-wing cross from Van Persie enabled Gilberto to shoot solidly but equally solid was the response of Kuszczak.
It was four minutes later that Arsenal scored what was unquestionably a spectacular goal, a small marvel of technique on the part of their Belarus right-sided midfielder, Hleb. Receiving from Reyes, Hleb, with supreme virtuosity, danced past a couple of defenders in the box, took a return from Henry and shot high into the net with his left foot.
But the floodgates failed to open. When, early in the second half, Kuszczak lost a high cross on the right-hand side of the area and central defender Philippe Senderos played the ball back, Neil Clement resourcefully nodded the ball behind for a corner.
Ten minutes later Bergkamp arrived, to the special delight of those Arsenal fans in the lower tier of the North Stand who were wearing bright orange Holland jerseys. But in the next minute, the 72nd, Eboue slipped in the penalty area, Kolo Toure failed to block and Nigel Quashie thumped a left-footed drive past Jens Lehmann. Four minutes more, however, and Arsenal, now breathlessly in pursuit of their fierce rivals, Tottenham, whom they play here next Saturday, had regained the lead. A long, splendidly adventurous crossfield pass from left to right by Mathieu Flamini reached Emmanuel Adebayor, who had replaced Henry. When he crossed, Pires’s shot was blocked, but Bergkamp hooked the ball back again and this time Pires scored.
Then came the episode of the penalty that never was before Bergkamp struck a minute from the end to send the Arsenal supporters home happy.
How much better the Gunners might have done in Europe had the Dutchman not suffered from a fear of flying after a bomb scare on a plane carrying the Holland side some 12 years ago.
[...]
https://www.thetimes.com/article/arsenal-3-west-brom-1-bergkamp-answers-call-r2zm2qwzbsl

--------------------------

"You simply cannot find a player to replace Dennis because players of that quality are non-existent at the moment," he said.
[...]
"You never see him drinking, you never see him out and, between 30 and 37, that will make a huge difference," Wenger said. "He will be 36 in May. To play up front at that age [for a top team], you don't find that. I think he gets rewarded for the quality of his life."
https://www.theguardian.com/football/2005/feb/16/newsstory.sport6
https://www.uefa.com/uefachampionsl...8c48151-1000--wenger-wooed-by-bergkamp-class/

What Alan Hansen says at 9:15

Click to expand...

even Davids ... ! sometimes !

Wiliam Felipe Gracek · Sep 19, 2024

PuckVanHeel said: ↑

We have gone over this before. Better penalty taking would have helped *a lot*. Better officiating as well (but that is utopia and unthinkable). You said that last thing yourself. Not three times a German in a row. Not some wacky Italian protecting Tah for 20 minutes and then say he has to be subbed off. While England and their tabloids has a track record in ending the careers of officials and referees.

The way I see it (simplistically) is that there has been a concerted effort to slowly push us out from top level football and sh*t on us. Deep down The Athletic wants to see Arne Slot fail - you can sense it. There is a closed shop formed, like Test countries in cricket (or how in the 17th century France, England and Prussia joined together, more than once, to hack down 1.5 million Dutch Republicans, which ultimately cost us access to coal andsoforth). The social media lemmings also want that. They want a rigged super league. One self-referential circle of top level football. It has no meritocracy any more (Liverpool yes, wanted to move up and thus went for the 'cheaper' options; the already established Real Madrids go for Rudigers, Dias and so on). Little wonder the viewing figures have plumeted over here. What was once 2.5 million at a bare minimum is now 400000 for Juventus vs PSV.

That also relates to the enormous discrepancy between the total volume of CL goals since 1992 (or the results at tournaments, the high Premier League goals volume etc.) and the Ballon d'Or rankings of the past 30 years, since 1994. It just doesn’t sell very well or caters to a big market. It works quite clearly the same in individual sports where excellence or 'being better' is easier to measure - there can be no doubt here. In the Laureus type of stuff Spanish and English mediocrity gets picked up earlier than excellence by others (in the same branch of sport).

I'd say at club level people as De Bruyne or Bergkamp are not very far removed from Zidane, no. De Bruyne as I said was already in his thirties when he came close to a top five position in the Ballon d'Or. Before this he saw various other Premier League and England people ahead. Bergkamp remains the oldest with 10+ assists in the Premier League (and was 3rd most productive of the league then). Van Dijk has been nominated only twice in his career; this will inevitably not help his standing.

This is what Glanville wrote when he scored his last Arsenal goal:

Arsenal 3 West Brom 1: Bergkamp answers call

Brian Glanville at Highbury
Sunday April 16 2006, 1.00am BST, The Sunday Times
And Bergkamp it was, on 89 minutes, receiving from Emmanuel Eboue, who calmly and irresistibly slammed a right-footed shot wide of Tomasz Kuszczak in the Albion goal to secure maximum points for Arsenal.
“I think it was disrespectful,” declared his manager Arsène Wenger afterwards, “to say to Dennis, you came on because it was your day. I really felt we needed his vision. We needed somebody because (Robin) Van Persie looked tired and (Alexander) Hleb looked tired.”
Bergkamp will retire this summer and Arsenal may find him irreplaceable. Time after time, whether playing up front, never his favourite role, or just behind the striker, he has shown himself, in the old Italian phrase, “capable of inventing the game”. In other words, of doing the unexpected.
The huge advance in form recently made by the precocious Francesc Fabregas means that Bergkamp may now have a successor. Yesterday, as at Portsmouth in midweek, Fabregas was not used, Wenger anxious to have him fit for the Champions League semi-final first leg against Villarreal at Highbury on Wednesday.
Bryan Robson, the manager of Albion, who once again stares relegation bleakly in the face, was convinced his team should have had a penalty when they were behind 2-1. “How the referee (Mike Dean) missed the penalty, I don’t know,” he said.
He was convinced, and he was not alone, that Eboue fouled the excellent defender Curtis Davies. “It cost us the game,” he said.
Well, not really, although Davies was arguably the finest player on the field.
In Robson’s view, however, after the equaliser: “We got too excitable. We allowed Arsenal too many spaces to counter- attack, which they’re good at.”
Wenger was probably right to say his team made “at least 10 chances today”, but they were somewhat profligate in exploiting them and the first half would be 44 minutes long before they ultimately scored. The visitors were predictably cautious, with only Diomansy Kamara up front and Kanu, once a favourite at Highbury, floating around behind him.
Arsenal should have gone ahead in the fifth minute when Van Persie threaded a perfect ball to Abou Diaby. But Diaby, who had abundant time to shoot or pass to effect, did neither.
It was another 18 minutes before Van Persie and Thierry Henry fashioned an opportunity for Jose Antonio Reyes, but his shot was deflected behind for a corner. And when Gilberto put a strangely ineffectual Henry through, he could do no better than to shoot wide of the right-hand post.
On 40 minutes, a long left-wing cross from Van Persie enabled Gilberto to shoot solidly but equally solid was the response of Kuszczak.
It was four minutes later that Arsenal scored what was unquestionably a spectacular goal, a small marvel of technique on the part of their Belarus right-sided midfielder, Hleb. Receiving from Reyes, Hleb, with supreme virtuosity, danced past a couple of defenders in the box, took a return from Henry and shot high into the net with his left foot.
But the floodgates failed to open. When, early in the second half, Kuszczak lost a high cross on the right-hand side of the area and central defender Philippe Senderos played the ball back, Neil Clement resourcefully nodded the ball behind for a corner.
Ten minutes later Bergkamp arrived, to the special delight of those Arsenal fans in the lower tier of the North Stand who were wearing bright orange Holland jerseys. But in the next minute, the 72nd, Eboue slipped in the penalty area, Kolo Toure failed to block and Nigel Quashie thumped a left-footed drive past Jens Lehmann. Four minutes more, however, and Arsenal, now breathlessly in pursuit of their fierce rivals, Tottenham, whom they play here next Saturday, had regained the lead. A long, splendidly adventurous crossfield pass from left to right by Mathieu Flamini reached Emmanuel Adebayor, who had replaced Henry. When he crossed, Pires’s shot was blocked, but Bergkamp hooked the ball back again and this time Pires scored.
Then came the episode of the penalty that never was before Bergkamp struck a minute from the end to send the Arsenal supporters home happy.
How much better the Gunners might have done in Europe had the Dutchman not suffered from a fear of flying after a bomb scare on a plane carrying the Holland side some 12 years ago.
[...]
https://www.thetimes.com/article/arsenal-3-west-brom-1-bergkamp-answers-call-r2zm2qwzbsl

--------------------------

"You simply cannot find a player to replace Dennis because players of that quality are non-existent at the moment," he said.
[...]
"You never see him drinking, you never see him out and, between 30 and 37, that will make a huge difference," Wenger said. "He will be 36 in May. To play up front at that age [for a top team], you don't find that. I think he gets rewarded for the quality of his life."
https://www.theguardian.com/football/2005/feb/16/newsstory.sport6
https://www.uefa.com/uefachampionsl...8c48151-1000--wenger-wooed-by-bergkamp-class/

What Alan Hansen says at 9:15

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....

Wiliam Felipe Gracek · Sep 19, 2024

PDG1978 said: ↑

I wouldn't say that it was terrible (or poor/bad in general level of his play) but more average/mixed (some of his skills are of course far above average/normal in this game too, and he is not completely off his game or playing like he is half asleep or injured or something), and he has a bit of a mess up before the first Czech goal of course, and overall gives a few too many passes away and doesn't make the most of some opportunities including with shooting.

I think on another day though some of his actions could have ended up as assists, pre-assists and/or pre-pre-assists (if his team-mates went on to put the ball in the net after his ball progression), so yeah I would say mixed performance, but in terms of effect on the result it could be said he had a negative one because of that moment before the Czech goal mainly.
Click to expand...

.................. Is Interesting .. the mentality Of Pelé ...that he is speaking there ...

Pelé speaking there..in the documentary..

Despite having scored more than 1000 goals in my career..

It's always a joy to do it again... a new goal... a new goal ... a new goal ...a new goal ..

There would be no Football without the Goal

in any sport. you have the maximum achievement

In Football, the ultimate achievement is the goal..

Pelé's Mind speaking ..with himself ....:

Theoretically..The easiest way to reach the goal is to go straight through the middle, attacking zone 14 aggressively. with very very Aggression ...

vertically is much easier than doing zig zag ..."

If you have two players
extremely quicker and Foresight.. Premonition..Intuition's Mind

You attack by doing Plays one-twos..and narrowing the game..on the middle ... no fears at all ..

and Attacking zone 14 or half-moon in brazilian portuguese .. a expression in Football from here .. in Brazil...

..and having ..an absurd Technique " ambi-dextrous feet "..then it is easier to attack through the middle ..and narrow ..in a matter of Milli-Seconds the move to make is decided on my mind ...

Examples this...

type

Pelé and Coutinho ..
Pelé and Pagão ....

I don't know why... the teams... nowadays are afraid of attacking zone 14... playing in midfield. and narrow..

They are playing now on the wings..and widen the field a lot..

They say it's very difficult to play through the middle and narrow.

Here is Wiliam Phil Gracek talking to you .. Peter Gabriel 1978 hahahaha ! ..

I got the feeling that Pelé is talking about the 1974 Dutch team.. the mentality ..of the dutch Football ... or German Football ...

Wiliam Felipe Gracek · Sep 19, 2024

Wiliam Felipe Gracek · Sep 19, 2024

Wiliam Felipe Gracek · Sep 19, 2024

PuckVanHeel · Sep 19, 2024

Wiliam Felipe Gracek said: ↑

When i saw

When i saw some whole Matches ... Alessandro Del Piero in big finals ...for Juventus ..times

I realize that Alessandro Del Piero ... was .. the real
protagonist for Juventus Turin ... 1996-97 .... 1997-98 ...1998-99

not Zidane ...

Zidane ..came ...

after Alessandro Del Piero ... a grave injury ...

.... when ... Zizou ... gave ... 13 assists or 15 assists ... 2000-01 ..Serie A Calcio ...

But before ... Del Piero ..was
the real
protagonist for Juventus ...

Del Piero ..

0, 75 % behaviour in Big finals ..

vs

Zidane

0, 59 % behaviour in Big finals...

.....
Click to expand...

I think Zidane was especially good in evening games, less so games in the afternoon. Evening games are generally tournament games but not always.

Juventus was indeed built around Del Piero, but that is not the same as that Del Piero was really better.

I also think Del Piero was better for Juventus than Baggio was (and than Totti would be). With fewer obvious flaws and quirks.

Wiliam Felipe Gracek said: ↑

Alessandro Del Piero ..

was the real protagonist ..for Juventus ...

so Why not ... Dennis Bergkamp ... Marco van Basten ... Ruud Gullit of being abit better or slightly better than Zizou " overall player " ?????????

........
Richard Witschge
1995–96 33 7

vs

Zidane

...
1995–96 Division 1 33 6
Click to expand...

Well, Witschge was indeed good for Bordeaux in this year. Similar end product, that is correct (with assists included). France Football rated Zidane as the 2nd best player of the club, Witschge 3rd best (Dugarry 1st). In average grade not that far behind the golden boy. Witschge also made the Sofascore team of the tournament for euro 1996.

Wiliam Felipe Gracek said: ↑

Alessandro Del Piero ..

was the real protagonist ..for Juventus ...

so Why not ... Dennis Bergkamp ... Marco van Basten ... Ruud Gullit of being abit better or slightly better than Zizou " overall player " ?????????
Click to expand...

For club football you can make that idea (and also for De Bruyne; who only became really noticed by BdO after his 30s) but we have fared poorly in the Ballon d'Or in the last 30 years. Bergkamp was nominated a few times without getting votes (1999, 2000 for instance). Van Dijk only twice. I can already fill in how that will play out. Zidane won the World Cup; we have often (not always) the officiating against us with the margins being small.

Repeat often enough that we are bad, freeze us out from the money, and it becomes reality. It becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy. Options narrow down and become closer. Maybe I don't know the full mechanisms behind what it is but the English football press has been hitting us for quite some time (World Soccer already did at euro 1988, starting with a series of negative remarks). I hate them. I hate the poseurs and pseudo professors, the masters of the second handicap.

La Liga goals by foreigners (after 1992): 3rd European country behind France and Portugal
Premier League goals by foreigners, non-UK (after 1992): 2nd behind France ("now known for doing well", wrote The Times this month)
Bundesliga goals by foreigners (after 1992): 2nd behind Brazil
Champions League (after 1992): also looks solid (as does the European Championships, only Germany stood more often in the semi finals)
etc.

Push that "booh, bad" button persistently for 30 years and it becomes reality.

What you do see is a 'stall' for France and Italy after 1996. In the early years for France 'we' are solidly in the top 10 (then it was also #2 in the coefficients) but then moves out of the top 20 entirely, to never re-appear.

Italy is a similar story. Top 4 until 1999 (the 1st European country in Serie A goals), then moved down.

PuckVanHeel · Sep 19, 2024

PuckVanHeel said: ↑

Premier League goals by foreigners, non-UK (after 1992): 2nd behind France ("now known for doing well", wrote The Times this month)
Click to expand...

Typo; "Not known for doing well"...

PuckVanHeel · Sep 19, 2024

Wiliam Felipe Gracek said: ↑

even Davids ... ! sometimes !
Click to expand...

That might well be true but he played in a position of course that was less well regarded. An enforcer doesn't have the same standing as a number ten sort of player. Which is in general fair.

Davids had however also an entertaining style and the glasses helped his (international) profile. I see him as good as Neeskens was but at the same time also slightly overrated compared to for example his contemporary Cocu.

You can say he helped to bring the best out of Zidane, Nedved and Ronaldinho (and Bergkamp in euro 2000?). Ronaldinho in the second half of 2003-04 was maybe even better as what he was in 2005-06.

Individual cases or often not easy, but again, there is a gigantic mismatch between the Ballon d'Or stuff and the most obvious performance indicators (like goals in the various competitions, national team Elo, number of semi finals since 1966). Push the buttons long enough and it becomes reality.

Wiliam Felipe Gracek · Sep 19, 2024

PuckVanHeel said: ↑

That might well be true but he played in a position of course that was less well regarded. An enforcer doesn't have the same standing as a number ten sort of player. Which is in general fair.

Davids had however also an entertaining style and the glasses helped his (international) profile. I see him as good as Neeskens was but at the same time also slightly overrated compared to for example his contemporary Cocu.

You can say he helped to bring the best out of Zidane, Nedved and Ronaldinho (and Bergkamp in euro 2000?). Ronaldinho in the second half of 2003-04 was maybe even better as what he was in 2005-06.

Individual cases or often not easy, but again, there is a gigantic mismatch between the Ballon d'Or stuff and the most obvious performance indicators (like goals in the various competitions, national team Elo, number of semi finals since 1966). Push the buttons long enough and it becomes reality.
Click to expand...

.....

The best thing about Davids was his ability...to make great defensive coverages...or great recoveries

Examples this :

Go to ... 5: 18 minutes at Video ...

for me one of the best def covers Of all time ... !

and Claude Makelele ... Edgar Davids ...

i wish to contract them .. at Football Manager always Neeskens too .. etc... !

Wiliam Felipe Gracek · Sep 19, 2024

PuckVanHeel said: ↑

That might well be true but he played in a position of course that was less well regarded. An enforcer doesn't have the same standing as a number ten sort of player. Which is in general fair.

Davids had however also an entertaining style and the glasses helped his (international) profile. I see him as good as Neeskens was but at the same time also slightly overrated compared to for example his contemporary Cocu.

You can say he helped to bring the best out of Zidane, Nedved and Ronaldinho (and Bergkamp in euro 2000?). Ronaldinho in the second half of 2003-04 was maybe even better as what he was in 2005-06.

Individual cases or often not easy, but again, there is a gigantic mismatch between the Ballon d'Or stuff and the most obvious performance indicators (like goals in the various competitions, national team Elo, number of semi finals since 1966). Push the buttons long enough and it becomes reality.
Click to expand...

Go to 5: 00 minutes ..or 4: 58 there !

Wiliam Felipe Gracek · Sep 19, 2024

PuckVanHeel said: ↑

That might well be true but he played in a position of course that was less well regarded. An enforcer doesn't have the same standing as a number ten sort of player. Which is in general fair.

Davids had however also an entertaining style and the glasses helped his (international) profile. I see him as good as Neeskens was but at the same time also slightly overrated compared to for example his contemporary Cocu.

You can say he helped to bring the best out of Zidane, Nedved and Ronaldinho (and Bergkamp in euro 2000?). Ronaldinho in the second half of 2003-04 was maybe even better as what he was in 2005-06.

Individual cases or often not easy, but again, there is a gigantic mismatch between the Ballon d'Or stuff and the most obvious performance indicators (like goals in the various competitions, national team Elo, number of semi finals since 1966). Push the buttons long enough and it becomes reality.
Click to expand...

about other Players ... don't believe on this ... because ... i saw so many many whole matches ...

Zidane ... Ronaldinho ...Nedved ...

Playing .with Edgar Davids ...

they had the same problems and the same virtues..Pros and Cons on average

..... more the same .. !

Wiliam Felipe Gracek · Sep 19, 2024

PuckVanHeel said: ↑

That might well be true but he played in a position of course that was less well regarded. An enforcer doesn't have the same standing as a number ten sort of player. Which is in general fair.

Davids had however also an entertaining style and the glasses helped his (international) profile. I see him as good as Neeskens was but at the same time also slightly overrated compared to for example his contemporary Cocu.

You can say he helped to bring the best out of Zidane, Nedved and Ronaldinho (and Bergkamp in euro 2000?). Ronaldinho in the second half of 2003-04 was maybe even better as what he was in 2005-06.

Individual cases or often not easy, but again, there is a gigantic mismatch between the Ballon d'Or stuff and the most obvious performance indicators (like goals in the various competitions, national team Elo, number of semi finals since 1966). Push the buttons long enough and it becomes reality.
Click to expand...

FooTball Manager Style .....

Coach-Report on Ronaldinho :

Highly negative points :

Defending
Tackles
Interceptions
Def Covers
Duels Won
Clearances
Positioning
Team work
Ethic Work
Composure
Concentration per 96 minutes ( extra-time )
Anticipating
Decisions
Decision-making Power
Behaviour in Big matches ..Trembles in Big matches ( in Big Finals )
Shots on Target ratio %
Headers Won Def Set-Pieces
Lacks Aggression on Zone 14
Bravery
Determination
Off the Ball very very lazy sometimes
Stamina
Marking
Tackling ..
honestly Ronaldinho he didn't know or don't knew how to do any disarming with higher technique like Bob Moore did it always on career .....very very bad about this( Terrible on this )
Work Rate
Yellow Cards
Red cards ... was bad too
Disciplinary things
Lacks Flair Of Goal ... makes ,,, alot Of Goals of Penalty taking ...( kicks)
Lacks of Leadership
Lacks of Stronger personality in career ..
Tactically .. very very lazy player ...
Fool Fouls sometimes
call for responsibility to decide the matches
Goals with the Ball rolling ..

Average points over Ronaldinho :

Headers Won .. Attacking Set-Pieces ... ( Far Post or Heading Accuracy Pass )
Passing Accuracy ratio %
Vertical Pass Attempts
Diagonal Pass Attempts
Big chances created
Free-kick taking
Passing skills ..
BodyBalance
Strenght
Natural Fitness
without .. Prone-Injury Player
Classical Technique ...
he was not too ambi-dextrous-feet in several aspects of the game ( Long range Pass )
Shot Technique ( volleys ... lobs ... overheadkicks ... first Shots etc .. )
Corner-kicks taking
Curve
Swerve
Attacking

highly positive points :

Key-passes
although many of these key passes mentioned here.. were easily blocked by defenses

Dribbles made per 90 minutes ..
creativity
unpredictable
Dribbling skills
Ball control Skills
First Touch Skills
Penalty -Taking
Vision
Acceleration
Agility
Genius Moments ... sometimes ..

for sure Davids ... don't changed ..this ..

Pros and Cons of Ronaldinho !

Wiliam Felipe Gracek · Sep 19, 2024

PuckVanHeel said: ↑

That might well be true but he played in a position of course that was less well regarded. An enforcer doesn't have the same standing as a number ten sort of player. Which is in general fair.

Davids had however also an entertaining style and the glasses helped his (international) profile. I see him as good as Neeskens was but at the same time also slightly overrated compared to for example his contemporary Cocu.

You can say he helped to bring the best out of Zidane, Nedved and Ronaldinho (and Bergkamp in euro 2000?). Ronaldinho in the second half of 2003-04 was maybe even better as what he was in 2005-06.

Individual cases or often not easy, but again, there is a gigantic mismatch between the Ballon d'Or stuff and the most obvious performance indicators (like goals in the various competitions, national team Elo, number of semi finals since 1966). Push the buttons long enough and it becomes reality.
Click to expand...

PuckVanHeel

so give me ... one Coach-Report Football Manager Style on Ronaldinho ???

Pros
and
Cons

on his vision ??

SayWhatIWant · Sep 19, 2024

Most overrated is this guy:

Meanwhile Messipic.twitter.com/TEmOe8WgoT https://t.co/NMhRqWEoFw
— Iniestactics (@Iniestactics) September 13, 2024

Wiliam Felipe Gracek · Sep 20, 2024

Wiliam Felipe Gracek · Sep 20, 2024

Wiliam Felipe Gracek · Sep 20, 2024

SayWhatIWant said: ↑

Most overrated is this guy:

Meanwhile Messipic.twitter.com/TEmOe8WgoT https://t.co/NMhRqWEoFw
— Iniestactics (@Iniestactics) September 13, 2024

Click to expand...

...

Wiliam Felipe Gracek · Sep 20, 2024

PuckVanHeel said: ↑

That might well be true but he played in a position of course that was less well regarded. An enforcer doesn't have the same standing as a number ten sort of player. Which is in general fair.

Davids had however also an entertaining style and the glasses helped his (international) profile. I see him as good as Neeskens was but at the same time also slightly overrated compared to for example his contemporary Cocu.

You can say he helped to bring the best out of Zidane, Nedved and Ronaldinho (and Bergkamp in euro 2000?). Ronaldinho in the second half of 2003-04 was maybe even better as what he was in 2005-06.

Individual cases or often not easy, but again, there is a gigantic mismatch between the Ballon d'Or stuff and the most obvious performance indicators (like goals in the various competitions, national team Elo, number of semi finals since 1966). Push the buttons long enough and it becomes reality.
Click to expand...

.....

Wiliam Felipe Gracek · Sep 20, 2024

PDG1978 said: ↑

I think of the players you mention, although he possibly (it depends what this 'bullying' of Ruud Geels really was maybe - as a player to watch I would prefer him to all of Stam, Koeman, Thuram, probably Van Dijk too) could be my least favoured, I think Krol is the one who I'd pick out as the most 'complete' player. Even if Scirea was more assured at reading the game and possibly at building the play too overall, Koeman was a better shooter, Stam more powerful and probably a better tackler/blocker, Thuram more diffucult to get past and Van Dijk at his peak maybe more complete and reliable on the defensive side.

I think we said enough maybe on Scirea/Thuram, and probably understand each other's point of view. I'm not sure I'd feel "ok I change my mind" and I guess you don't either, but it doesn't matter I think (I don't think it's to do with seeing the players in an intrinsically different way as such probably, but more the way we are automatically defining 'complete' in our minds and the priorities attached to different facets of the game maybe). But yeah in completeness and being a total footballer Krol does fit better than Scirea, I'd agree.
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...

Wiliam Felipe Gracek · Sep 20, 2024

Isaías Silva Serafim said: ↑

Well, he scored over 700 official goals. Ad south america were on par if not better than Europe at 50s, 60s and 70s. Brazil won 3 world cups out of 4 disputed with most players playing in Brazil and the intercontinental cups were mostly dominated by south American teams
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,,,,

Wiliam Felipe Gracek · Sep 20, 2024

Lincon18762 said: ↑

Calling Pelé overrated should be considered a sin in Football
Click to expand...

....

Wiliam Felipe Gracek · Sep 20, 2024

carlito86 said: ↑

People shit on Reddit here but for pure comedy it is undefeated

View attachment 271547
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