Who is the most overrated all time great?

Discussion in 'The Beautiful Game' started by Neron Nuñez, Jul 7, 2024.

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Who are the most overrated all time greats?

  1. R9

    10 vote(s)
    21.3%
  2. Zidane

    9 vote(s)
    19.1%
  3. Cristiano Ronaldo

    19 vote(s)
    40.4%
  4. Ronaldinho

    9 vote(s)
    19.1%
  1. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel BigSoccer Yellow Card

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    That being said, center backs are not the easiest position to judge. Also in terms of completeness. On the whole I guess Thuram fits a bit better than Scirea. The 1999 final does show a drive forward and carrying with the ball (see those examples).

    Krol and Stam better than Koeman (who was a way better defender than often made out; in both very offensive and very defensive teams like PSV in '88 was).

    This below received only a 7.1 in Sofascore for example (over the whole 2023-24 season he was the best rated CB). The loss he had today against Forest (your club!) is a 7.4 - for comparison. Second of his team behind Gravenberch.

    Only his third home loss for Liverpool. You can wonder which center backs have been this good at the age he has now (plus that knee injury; it wrecked players like Essien in the past).

     
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  2. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel BigSoccer Yellow Card

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    #1102 PuckVanHeel, Sep 14, 2024
    Last edited: Sep 14, 2024
    Of course I don't know this for sure but he is the favorite. Real Madrid is more likely to split the votes as well.

    In the upcoming EA FC 25 video game he is with Mbappe and Haaland the highest rated active football player. With a 91 rating. That is also a sign he is very well positioned.

    Van Dijk is by the way the highest rated defender, at 89 (though a small downgrade) and one of the highest outfield players in the game. Rudiger is 88 and Saliba 87.

    It is not that I don't see Rodri is an excellent player (though honestly not that much at euro 2024... he wasn't as exceptional there) but it feels sour that De Bruyne in all those years of excellent performances and skill was never really close. For many years he barely registered in the rankings. In 2018 - the domestic treble winning year - he was only 9th and miles behind all the 8 above him. He had his games at the World Cup as well (most notably Brazil). You can make a good case he was for many years the best player in the best club team (even though they also won a lot without him and they didn't stutter in their production so much).

    I find it somewhat funny by the way that Haaland now scores at a rate that puts Cristiano et al to shame. In the same way as Cristiano shattered the decade before him (the one with Shevchenko, Henry etc). The third decade finds yet another gear?

    Haaland is outpacing them all:
    https://www.uefa.com/uefachampionsl...gue-goalscoring-milestones-haaland-quickest-/



    And this overview below is a good reflection of how it has become more common that if you score one goal in a match, you also can score more in the same match.


    (note: Raul played 142 games, RvN only 73 - per OPTA only 11 matches before his 25th birthday, the fastest to reach 50 goals so far but he was also 31 and 3 months when he reached that)

    In itself it is good that also non-goalscorers can win awards (and Rodri is nonetheless capable of chipping in with goals) but in the past number of years some things have gone 'wrong' with people as Lewandowski and De Bruyne I'd think. Many aren't sure whether Haaland has made Man City really better and more unbeatable than before.

    Spain possibly merits another BdO winner, with 1964 the last one. That is right.

    As I mentioned before (same numbers as here):
    https://www.reddit.com/r/soccer/comments/r84q15/countries_with_the_most_amount_of_champions/
    (more goals than any other European country since 1992, more than much larger populated countries with a similar entry position)
     
  3. PDG1978

    PDG1978 Member+

    Mar 8, 2009
    Club:
    Nottingham Forest FC
    I think of the players you mention, although he possibly (it depends what this 'bullying' of Ruud Geels really was maybe - as a player to watch I would prefer him to all of Stam, Koeman, Thuram, probably Van Dijk too) could be my least favoured, I think Krol is the one who I'd pick out as the most 'complete' player. Even if Scirea was more assured at reading the game and possibly at building the play too overall, Koeman was a better shooter, Stam more powerful and probably a better tackler/blocker, Thuram more diffucult to get past and Van Dijk at his peak maybe more complete and reliable on the defensive side.

    I think we said enough maybe on Scirea/Thuram, and probably understand each other's point of view. I'm not sure I'd feel "ok I change my mind" and I guess you don't either, but it doesn't matter I think (I don't think it's to do with seeing the players in an intrinsically different way as such probably, but more the way we are automatically defining 'complete' in our minds and the priorities attached to different facets of the game maybe). But yeah in completeness and being a total footballer Krol does fit better than Scirea, I'd agree.
     
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  4. Letmepost

    Letmepost Member

    Arsenal
    South Korea
    Apr 11, 2023
    Although the topic of 11 players cloned to fulfill all roles and positions across the pitch, in order to output an answer as to who may be the most complete, is a mental exercise I've never really paid much attention to, I wanted to join in anyways.

    I personally think centre-backs are very specialized roles due to their requirement to provide massive physical presence inside the box, meaning more focus on strength, height, and probably greater muscle and bone mass to domineer over less physical specimens.

    Now that is fine for a role confined to tighter areas of the pitch, with much less back-and-forth ground coverage, but once you stretch out the plays to the entire pitch, I think their large frames and probably less stamina starts to become a problem. This is backed up by data from multiple sources.

    upload_2024-9-15_15-32-30.png

    upload_2024-9-15_15-36-11.png

    I am thinking perhaps defensively apt, and tactically sound players who are less individualistic in nature, with the ability to constantly create advantageous shapes across the entire 90 minutes through movement (and with the necessary stamina to do so), such as Phillip Cocu, or Philip Lahm, might do better, if cloned for all eleven starting positions across the field. Victory through tactical positioning, solid defensive shapes, stamina, not by selective moments of brilliance, after the rest of the teammates does most of the donkey-work.

    These types of players also tend to be the plug-and-play types that fix all tactical holes of the team, rather than being needed to be constantly tactically coddled, and made to impress people through their specific skill-sets only.
     
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  5. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel BigSoccer Yellow Card

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    I honestly feel like Van Dijk (now, but also pre-injury) is close in most of these categories except shooting. He was/is not an as frequent tackler or blocker as Stam, for a part because of the characteristics of the time they play in, but that does not mean he isn't extremely good when it has to be done. Stam yes, was very good and was also a relatively fair player (back then the average fouls per game was way higher as now, like 50% higher).

    Koeman was a better shooter from open play yes (and not wasteful either), and an even better long range passer, but Van Dijk is not too far off. In reading the game and building play Van Dijk is basically the best of the current generation. Is it as good as Scirea? Hard to say, but he is the best of the current ones (in totality, so also in terms of dispossessed, poor touches, retaining under pressure, errors leading to a shot, progressive passes). Players cannot do everything at once of course. They cannot shoot 10 times in a game, make 120 passes and do 10 tackles in the same match. When he recorded the highest top speed in the Champions League (2019), he ran 9.8 kilometres that same match. It is okay, certainly for a center-back, but not exceptional.



    Koeman and Stam have also said they feel/think Van Dijk of the past decade was a better player than them. They don't say that to flatter or sell the game but they honestly (I think) see it this way. Stam can also logically reason this.




    Against your team (Nottingham Forest) he has now lost his third home game for Liverpool. This is his profile, in a not peak level game (aged 33). In terms of pulling your weight that is pretty strong (I don't think you can blame him for the goal Forest scored).



    Classic how he hasn't been nominated for the Ballon d'Or. Decades later we will see a second handicap and bump down, as always (never the reverse!). Over the past 30 years there have been numerous other defenders with similar (lack of) team-success that were on that BdO list.

    We have become the first semi-finalist ever without BdO nominations (Denmark, Wales, Greece and so on all had them). We have seen and will see very little of the extra Champions League money - yes, in that way the Simon Kupers can continue his trope of 'how bad Holland has become' (he already did in 1999, but now 1999 is part of 'when Holland was good').

    At the same time, we are also a net payer while Portugal is officially still a 'poor' country and receives solidarity money from FIFA and UEFA. Again and again the officiating derails us (also vs Spain in 2014 yes, as said by Van Gaal). Such Italian dude protects Jonathan Tah for 20+ minutes (yellow carded after the sixth foul, the fourth registered one, 24th minute) and then says to Nagelsmann that he has to make a substitute. That's hugely corrupt.

    The 'conspiracy' is real. Both for a part in intent and for a part in effect (how the market forces play out).
     
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  6. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel BigSoccer Yellow Card

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    #1106 PuckVanHeel, Sep 16, 2024
    Last edited: Sep 16, 2024
    This is data from the earliest available Champions League season, 2003-04. You can see here Beckham and the other ones (where is Zidane?).

    [​IMG]

    Let Seedorf play in a more attacking team and it is not unthinkable you'll see a good impersonator of 19-20 year old Robben and 30-31 year old Figo. He could do many things on a very high level. Not everything at the same time of course. He was an excellent deputy for Kaka and Pirlo too.

    He had 90+ touches per 90, over three successful tackles per 90, and even one clearance per match (my language translates this as 'defended balls in the own penalty area'). Won nine duels per match, 0.5 fouls committed per 90 but 2.2 times fouled himself. He played 8 games and averaged 78 minutes per match.

    Of course, Robben and Figo were not always barging through triple covers either. That last Champions League game, against Benfica in 2018-19, is different because of Bayern's poor form. He knew very well that if he's doubled marked the game has to be for the midfield - not play for your own glory.



    Naturally, neither Seedorf or Robben received Ballon d'Or votes in 2004 (1994, 2024 on repeat!). Seedorf was nominated, no votes. Robben was not even nominated, with also a very strong euro 2004 and excellent start at Chelsea. Again frozen out, which has all sort of side-effects in the real world. The Al Gabirus and Alliances then do a further bump down decades later. Retrospective Ballon d'Ors and the like.

    Van Nistelrooij was the only other nominated one from the Benelux in 2004 (he finished 9th). He's on 1.5 dribbles and 0.8 key passes per 90 (in 7 games). That's not his best, for ex 2007-08 (aged 31-32) shows 1.5 key passes per 90 - this supports the idea that despite playing for a Capello team he then executed more actual football, and yes, also scored goals outside the box (vs Barcelona, vs Atletico etc.).

    That same account has also a nice graph for Hazard.
     
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  7. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel BigSoccer Yellow Card

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    I just checked it in the OPTA books, and yes, Stam had in 1998-2001 naturally more tackles per game (around 3 in 1998-99). The EPL in general had quite a bit more tackles, fouls and such.

    Stam was actually in many games of the reactive type (not in all, but again, Van Dijk before 2018 was also more aggressive in style). There are takes on youtube and other places that name Stam among the most complete center-backs to have played in the Premier League/Champions League. Just as his compatriot he had some high peaks when playing next to 'unknown' names (the Norwegian Ronny Johnsen).

    It is often believed he was like a blood, guts and thunder defender but that's imho not correct (another one who just as "one trick pony" and "high speed diver" Robben with his difficult passes, and Van Nistelrooij gets maltreated and misprofiled).




    Against your team he had this long ball assist in 1998-99 (0:25), he was pressurized by Forest.


    Van Dijk had however more of those defensive actions as Rudiger and Saliba had last year.


    https://x.com/Squawka/status/1804212940309963187
    (I don't agree with the LFC fan comment there, "don't ever...", it is just about the stats!)

    See also vs Rüdiger and Saliba (both the volume and the success rate). More defensive actions on the ground. So again, next to peers and contemporaries he is a good ground tackler.

    https://fbref.com/en/stathead/playe...=972aeb2a&p3yrfrom=2023-2024&p3yrto=2023-2024

    https://fbref.com/en/stathead/playe...=18b896d6&p3yrfrom=2023-2024&p3yrto=2023-2024
     
  8. PDG1978

    PDG1978 Member+

    Mar 8, 2009
    Club:
    Nottingham Forest FC
    I'll just acknowledge your recent posts Puck and say I don't have any counter argument to present or anything like that, albeit I would say (probably you agree, and I don't say it as some kind of dismissal of what you present anyway) that counting up actions isn't necessarily showing everything because it depends how plays develop and what is necessary, how much the opposition attacks, whether a defender can clear up a situation without making a tackle etc etc I suppose....
     
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  9. Wiliam Felipe Gracek

    Santos FC
    France
    Feb 3, 2024



    well ...


    Zidane
    803 matches
    156 goals
    235 Assists ( 205 Direct Assists , + 30 Indirect Assists )
    0,19 % goals
    0, 29 % Assists ...



    vs


    Seedorf

    Clarence Seedorf
    977 matches
    146 goals ..
    0, 15 % average of goals
    977 matches
    167 assists ...
    0, 17 average of assists



    ....Professional football's main objective is to always put the ball into the net. as simple as that !
     
  10. Wiliam Felipe Gracek

    Santos FC
    France
    Feb 3, 2024


    .............




    ..
    [ I took this video ... from the channel ... Zinedine Zidane videos .!



    Peter Gabriel 1978

    ....



    this is the perfect video ... that i'm trying to show you always .




    Firstly ..:


    Zidane had a terrible performance against Republic Czech ..Republic ... in 2003 ...





    Most people confusing such a player who has a lot of pure talent..

    #Ball control skills
    #First Touch Skills
    #Dribbling Skills.
    #Technically brilliant
    #Pure or Born Talent
    #Magician things ..
    #Fantasy Skills




    ..
    As these players have a certain poetic, artistic, technical license " technical gestures License."

    How dare you analyze me by real numbers always ..
    As they cannot or could never be compared by the normal and fair metrics of Professional Football..

    As if these players...were very consistent and really effective performers always.

    that is a Lie for sure .. Of course ... generally ...( Zinedine Zidane ..Jay Jay Okocha.. Ronaldinho ..Djalminha ...Clarence Seedorf ....Beckham ... Berbatov ...Bergkamp ...Baggio...Neymar Jr...Mahrez... etc .. only to take the them average in general ...
    the Sand Castle of Illusion fell without any foundation)
    )


    ...


    But ... for sure ...



    Dennis Bergkamp ...Ruud Gullit... and Marco van Basten



    They had all the strengths and qualities to be much better..than Zidane...easily ...


    Zidane is super deified.

    by First touch skills .... dribbling skills ... ball control skills ... Elegance Technique
    by fools on the Internet
    Highlights only...


    Zidane has never been a really consistent, effective and high-performing performer .



    i'm spoken this ... Look at me ... I saw so many many whole matches of Zizou .!
     
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  11. PDG1978

    PDG1978 Member+

    Mar 8, 2009
    Club:
    Nottingham Forest FC
    I wouldn't say that it was terrible (or poor/bad in general level of his play) but more average/mixed (some of his skills are of course far above average/normal in this game too, and he is not completely off his game or playing like he is half asleep or injured or something), and he has a bit of a mess up before the first Czech goal of course, and overall gives a few too many passes away and doesn't make the most of some opportunities including with shooting.

    I think on another day though some of his actions could have ended up as assists, pre-assists and/or pre-pre-assists (if his team-mates went on to put the ball in the net after his ball progression), so yeah I would say mixed performance, but in terms of effect on the result it could be said he had a negative one because of that moment before the Czech goal mainly.
     
  12. Al Gabiru

    Al Gabiru Member

    Jan 28, 2020
    #1112 Al Gabiru, Sep 17, 2024
    Last edited: Sep 17, 2024
    This criticism existed during Zidane's time at Juventus, that he would be a beautiful player to watch, but not as effective. So anyone who followed football at the time heard that. As well as that Gullit was slow. But Zidane was, in fact, one of the best players at the 1998 World Cup, UCL 01/02 and Euro 2000. In my opinion, the best in all three tournaments. So nothing comes for free.

    It should also be said that a player like Zidane (Xavi, Modric etc) cannot be judged solely on goals and assists. Since they have the role of control of the match (volume of passes, keep of possession, etc.). And Zidane was a good defender for his position too.

    I'm aware that Zidane's dbscalcio is low, but in the esm, Zidane is the eighth player with the most appearances since 95/96, that means he's a player better rated by the international press than by the local press. It's a peculiar situation. But that's why we need to cross-check data and not just rely on one source.
     
  13. Wiliam Felipe Gracek

    Santos FC
    France
    Feb 3, 2024


    Gullit Slow ????


    he did 80 meters ... in 7.5 seconds ...
    He has the Backspin of the ball


    Like Michel Platini ... Long Range Pass Ball .... 40 Yards ...and 60 Yards ... always !


    ....


    ...
     
  14. Wiliam Felipe Gracek

    Santos FC
    France
    Feb 3, 2024


    Gullit 3 wins 1 draw ..... vs against Diego Maradona !
     
  15. Wiliam Felipe Gracek

    Santos FC
    France
    Feb 3, 2024

    I like Zizou ...



    Zidane vs Ronaldinho ...



    I prefer ... Zidane easily

    Zidane has a behaviour much better in Big finals .. or in Big Matches ..than Ronaldinho ..



    Frank Rijkaard ... and Zidane ... 0, 59 % average in Finals ..





    vs



    Ronaldinho only 0, 48 % average in Finals ..






    I counted ... Goals ..Assists ...Pre-Assists .... and Key Plays etc .. !
     
  16. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel BigSoccer Yellow Card

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    The serial diver and playacter Kane with three penalties in one match. Cristiano Ronaldo never had that! The Penaldo never had this privilege! In all those 150+ CL games.

    Ronaldo was of course also accused of diving, especially until around 2015, but with him you can say he was doing it at pace. He protected himself.

    Kane just flops to ground from static positions and static motions. But hey, he is the England captain so go ahead (against 95% of the teams, it is a bit different against opponents of a similar size). Never gets a yellow. Stinks and smells big time. He also talks and sounds as a Neanderthaler.
     
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  17. Letmepost

    Letmepost Member

    Arsenal
    South Korea
    Apr 11, 2023
    I do agree he uses referees to his advantage (so many players do also), but I was somewhat suspicious of the raw number of extra-opportunities he gained by such methods, and was going to say it is probably neglible overall, and such an occurence would happen from time-to-time playing for a strong team like Bayern Munich, but after checking into the minutes required per penalty-kick opportunity (including ones missed by the player), out of players who scored more than 10 penalty-kick goals, it does seem like Harry Kane is quite fortunate at receiving penalty-kick opportunities, although the sample size is very small.

    Least amount of minutes required per penalty-kick opportunity in the UEFA Champions League (list restricted to players 10 or more penalty-kick goals in the competition):

    1. Sergio Aguero: 345 minutes
    2. Harry Kane: 360 minutes
    3. Ruud van Nistelrooy: 469 minutes
    4. Lionel Messi: 590 minutes
    5. Robert Lewandowski: 601 minutes
    6. Luis Figo: 648 minutes
    7. Cristiano Ronaldo: 724 minutes

    Of course, I want to do the list for domestic leagues also, but it is quite interesting how many penalty-kick opportunities he earned, despite playing for a non-super team for most of his career.
     
  18. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel BigSoccer Yellow Card

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    #1118 PuckVanHeel, Sep 18, 2024
    Last edited: Sep 18, 2024
    De Bruyne was already 31.5 years old when he got close/within the top five. Before this he was by a long way removed from the top five, never close.

    https://www.bigsoccer.com/threads/w...il-and-argentina.2124300/page-2#post-42531502

    Harry Kane is England captain since early 2018. Tottenham Hotspur is against 85% of the Champions League opponents of course not a small team at all. Not in terms of run of play and not in terms of standing. If they play against Wolfsburg or so, then they are the bigger team.

    I have rarely seen Kane seeing a yellow card for a dive. That stinks big time. The one time he did receive a yellow, he actually did not dive (vs Malta in november 2023). That referee was Portuguese, who had maybe some experience.

    Harry Kane Named "the Worst Diver" in Soccer Ahead of Bruno Fernandes and Cristiano Ronaldo
    https://www.si.com/fannation/soccer...st-diver-in-soccer-ahead-of-cristiano-ronaldo
    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/ar...-mother-falls-death-taking-selfie-ravine.html

    I'd say Aguero often drew them (when he won it himself) with the face towards goal. It remains a viveza Argentine of course... born and made by the mudpools. Harry Kane draws his fouls from static positions and with the back to goal. That is his trademark.

    This 'face to goal' also applies to Van Nistelrooij. Also when he kind of dived.

    For example here at 9:55 - face towards goal


    He received heavy criticism in his own country for this move. Cruijff called it "unacceptable"

    Just as often though, he was brutally kicked. When he did something himself, against Ashley Cole (the air rifle shooter), glancing his knee, he was banned for five games. His remarks after the euro 2004 semi-final also saw him banned for four national team games (he said the referee was a home referee, and indeed there were some close/unfortunate offside calls; all close tbf and not wrong by multiple meters).

    Here all the penalties he won for PSV, that he scored himself (the 'small' team)

    (9:35 - face to goal, drive to the box, clear foul. Ref was the famous Italian Collina. Dick Advocaat was Rangers manager, it practically decided who would go through)


    (1:12 - face towards goal - his shirt was pulled yes, this time he didn't go to the ground and tried to play the ball. Ref was Norwegian.)

    Then there is also one against HJK Helsinki (that he scored) but I cannot find the video.

    He was useful in holding up the ball with the back towards goal (you said this yourself!) but in general he didn't win penalties that way. For Real Madrid there are two penalties he missed after his own shot resulted in a handball by the opponent.

    edit: will be interesting to see when that Portugal referee (the one of the Malta dive) receives another assignment involving an English team again. He hasn't had another one since that incident and the tabloids complaining (ask Anders Frisk! Terje Hauge! Ovrebo!). While in the same month as the Malta game, just a bit earlier, he did Aston Villa vs AZ Alkmaar for example.
     
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  19. Letmepost

    Letmepost Member

    Arsenal
    South Korea
    Apr 11, 2023
    Definitive Champions League Penalty Records | Opta Analyst (theanalyst.com)

    [​IMG]

    It is really hard to quantify how much Harry Kane got away with in general, due to the leniency of referees overlooking his underhanded behaviours, especially in contrast to the rest of the league.

    On the topic of penalties drawn, the above infographic might be of use.
     
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  20. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel BigSoccer Yellow Card

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    I am not his biggest fan but thinking he was slow is quite absurd. There is nothing to back this up. Before his knee injuries he was both on the first few meters and the long distances quite fast. As a 30+ years old player he was arguably faster than Zidane was (I'd put Zidane ahead, personally, as an overall player but it is marginal; I don't see Zidane ahead of MvB tbh).

    Journalists though, sometimes don't know what they are writing (or they know what the company line is, which is of course worse).

    "Even Van Dijk, who was making his 50th appearance in Europe for the club, had not found the net since February, when he struck in similar fashion to convert Tsimikas’ corner and clinch a dramatic Carabao Cup final triumph over Chelsea. Both centre-backs should be more potent."
    https://www.nytimes.com/athletic/5775289/2024/09/18/liverpool-milan-set-piece-coach/

    Has he an idea what a good rate for a center back is? How he is generally the most marked player in the penalty area? In Premier League goals he is one of the highest scoring center-backs, and has 15+ attempts on the post, which is double the amount of any other center-back.

    "For the national team only R. Koeman (14) and F. de Boer (13) are ahead of him now, and Van Dijk (9 goals) has only one penalty (the injury time against Greece for the qualifiers). That's the only penalty goal in his entire career so far (1 attempt, 1 goal).

    For the Premier League you have Terry (41), Cahill (28) ahead. Then comes him with 22 goals (0 penalties). Which doesn't include the goals he scored before mid-2015 of course. Source is the Premier League website itself.

    Woodwork: hit the woodwork 15 times in the Premier League. Seven more than any other central-defender (data since 2006)"

    https://www.bigsoccer.com/threads/the-thread-for-ruud-gullit.2130952/page-11#post-42445709

    He now has 62 career goals (includes 1 penalty).

    This is how that (roughly) compares in the 21st century, only taking the ones who played a significant part of their career at a top level league:
    https://iffhs.com/posts/3365

    Ramos - 137 (was also full-back)
    Ivanovic - 73 (was also full-back)
    Terry - 73
    Van Buyten - 73
    Van Dijk - 62
    Pique - 61
     
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  21. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel BigSoccer Yellow Card

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    Yes! :thumbsup: Peculiarly, RvN didn't take them all himself, nor did Robben. The other players in the list did (except for one penalty won by Messi, I think).
     
  22. Wiliam Felipe Gracek

    Santos FC
    France
    Feb 3, 2024

    yes Marco van Basten and Ruud Gullit easily .. more++++
    consistent players ...than Zizou .
    of course without injuries ....and when both were very very fit ..on the field ...


    For examples this ..

    Gullit ... seasons ... 1980-81 .... 1981-82 .... 1982-83 ...1983-84..1985-86...1986-87 ...1987-88


    one part of 1988-89 ..short moments ...


    1991-92 ... 1992-93 ... 1993-94 ....




    Van Basten ... seasons ... .. 1984-85 ...1985-86 ... then here here starting the injuries ...

    ..
    1986-87 ..and 1987-88 ..1989.. a few parts ... ...




    1991-92 .. 1992-93 ..a few parts ..



    even Dennis Bergkamp ... had All qualities ..to beat the Zidane easily ... too ..



    But I don't know, unfortunately... The Dutch national team side is very cursed


    and

    unlucky,.... always ...

    and poorly managed by board's people ..
     
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  23. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel BigSoccer Yellow Card

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    #1123 PuckVanHeel, Sep 18, 2024
    Last edited: Sep 18, 2024
    We have gone over this before. Better penalty taking would have helped *a lot*. Better officiating as well (but that is utopia and unthinkable). You said that last thing yourself. Not three times a German in a row. Not some wacky Italian protecting Tah for 20 minutes and then say he has to be subbed off. While England and their tabloids has a track record in ending the careers of officials and referees.

    The way I see it (simplistically) is that there has been a concerted effort to slowly push us out from top level football and sh*t on us. Deep down The Athletic wants to see Arne Slot fail - you can sense it. There is a closed shop formed, like Test countries in cricket (or how in the 17th century France, England and Prussia joined together, more than once, to hack down 1.5 million Dutch Republicans, which ultimately cost us access to coal andsoforth). The social media lemmings also want that. They want a rigged super league. One self-referential circle of top level football. It has no meritocracy any more (Liverpool yes, wanted to move up and thus went for the 'cheaper' options; the already established Real Madrids go for Rudigers, Dias and so on). Little wonder the viewing figures have plumeted over here. What was once 2.5 million at a bare minimum is now 400000 for Juventus vs PSV.

    That also relates to the enormous discrepancy between the total volume of CL goals since 1992 (or the results at tournaments, the high Premier League goals volume etc.) and the Ballon d'Or rankings of the past 30 years, since 1994. It just doesn’t sell very well or caters to a big market. It works quite clearly the same in individual sports where excellence or 'being better' is easier to measure - there can be no doubt here. In the Laureus type of stuff Spanish and English mediocrity gets picked up earlier than excellence by others (in the same branch of sport).

    I'd say at club level people as De Bruyne or Bergkamp are not very far removed from Zidane, no. De Bruyne as I said was already in his thirties when he came close to a top five position in the Ballon d'Or. Before this he saw various other Premier League and England people ahead. Bergkamp remains the oldest with 10+ assists in the Premier League (and was 3rd most productive of the league then). Van Dijk has been nominated only twice in his career; this will inevitably not help his standing.

    This is what Glanville wrote when he scored his last Arsenal goal:

    Arsenal 3 West Brom 1: Bergkamp answers call

    Brian Glanville at Highbury
    Sunday April 16 2006, 1.00am BST, The Sunday Times
    And Bergkamp it was, on 89 minutes, receiving from Emmanuel Eboue, who calmly and irresistibly slammed a right-footed shot wide of Tomasz Kuszczak in the Albion goal to secure maximum points for Arsenal.
    “I think it was disrespectful,” declared his manager Arsène Wenger afterwards, “to say to Dennis, you came on because it was your day. I really felt we needed his vision. We needed somebody because (Robin) Van Persie looked tired and (Alexander) Hleb looked tired.”
    Bergkamp will retire this summer and Arsenal may find him irreplaceable. Time after time, whether playing up front, never his favourite role, or just behind the striker, he has shown himself, in the old Italian phrase, “capable of inventing the game”. In other words, of doing the unexpected.
    The huge advance in form recently made by the precocious Francesc Fabregas means that Bergkamp may now have a successor. Yesterday, as at Portsmouth in midweek, Fabregas was not used, Wenger anxious to have him fit for the Champions League semi-final first leg against Villarreal at Highbury on Wednesday.
    Bryan Robson, the manager of Albion, who once again stares relegation bleakly in the face, was convinced his team should have had a penalty when they were behind 2-1. “How the referee (Mike Dean) missed the penalty, I don’t know,” he said.
    He was convinced, and he was not alone, that Eboue fouled the excellent defender Curtis Davies. “It cost us the game,” he said.
    Well, not really, although Davies was arguably the finest player on the field.
    In Robson’s view, however, after the equaliser: “We got too excitable. We allowed Arsenal too many spaces to counter- attack, which they’re good at.”
    Wenger was probably right to say his team made “at least 10 chances today”, but they were somewhat profligate in exploiting them and the first half would be 44 minutes long before they ultimately scored. The visitors were predictably cautious, with only Diomansy Kamara up front and Kanu, once a favourite at Highbury, floating around behind him.
    Arsenal should have gone ahead in the fifth minute when Van Persie threaded a perfect ball to Abou Diaby. But Diaby, who had abundant time to shoot or pass to effect, did neither.
    It was another 18 minutes before Van Persie and Thierry Henry fashioned an opportunity for Jose Antonio Reyes, but his shot was deflected behind for a corner. And when Gilberto put a strangely ineffectual Henry through, he could do no better than to shoot wide of the right-hand post.
    On 40 minutes, a long left-wing cross from Van Persie enabled Gilberto to shoot solidly but equally solid was the response of Kuszczak.
    It was four minutes later that Arsenal scored what was unquestionably a spectacular goal, a small marvel of technique on the part of their Belarus right-sided midfielder, Hleb. Receiving from Reyes, Hleb, with supreme virtuosity, danced past a couple of defenders in the box, took a return from Henry and shot high into the net with his left foot.
    But the floodgates failed to open. When, early in the second half, Kuszczak lost a high cross on the right-hand side of the area and central defender Philippe Senderos played the ball back, Neil Clement resourcefully nodded the ball behind for a corner.
    Ten minutes later Bergkamp arrived, to the special delight of those Arsenal fans in the lower tier of the North Stand who were wearing bright orange Holland jerseys. But in the next minute, the 72nd, Eboue slipped in the penalty area, Kolo Toure failed to block and Nigel Quashie thumped a left-footed drive past Jens Lehmann. Four minutes more, however, and Arsenal, now breathlessly in pursuit of their fierce rivals, Tottenham, whom they play here next Saturday, had regained the lead. A long, splendidly adventurous crossfield pass from left to right by Mathieu Flamini reached Emmanuel Adebayor, who had replaced Henry. When he crossed, Pires’s shot was blocked, but Bergkamp hooked the ball back again and this time Pires scored.
    Then came the episode of the penalty that never was before Bergkamp struck a minute from the end to send the Arsenal supporters home happy.
    How much better the Gunners might have done in Europe had the Dutchman not suffered from a fear of flying after a bomb scare on a plane carrying the Holland side some 12 years ago.
    [...]
    https://www.thetimes.com/article/arsenal-3-west-brom-1-bergkamp-answers-call-r2zm2qwzbsl

    --------------------------

    "You simply cannot find a player to replace Dennis because players of that quality are non-existent at the moment," he said.
    [...]
    "You never see him drinking, you never see him out and, between 30 and 37, that will make a huge difference," Wenger said. "He will be 36 in May. To play up front at that age [for a top team], you don't find that. I think he gets rewarded for the quality of his life."
    https://www.theguardian.com/football/2005/feb/16/newsstory.sport6
    https://www.uefa.com/uefachampionsl...8c48151-1000--wenger-wooed-by-bergkamp-class/

    What Alan Hansen says at 9:15
     
    Wiliam Felipe Gracek repped this.
  24. carlito86

    carlito86 Member+

    Jan 11, 2016
    Club:
    Real Madrid
    When was this infographic dated?

    this was in La Liga 2009-2016


    When we talk about ‘penalties won’ that will also come down to interpretation aswell


    7:45
    Lucas Vasquez was the fouled player but that situation doesn’t even exist without Ronaldo’s input
     
  25. Letmepost

    Letmepost Member

    Arsenal
    South Korea
    Apr 11, 2023
    It seems to be quite a recent statistic specific to the UEFA Champions League. I took it from this article.

    https://theanalyst.com/2024/09/definitive-champions-league-penalty-records

    If you extend the topic to domestic leagues, I think players such as Neymar might appear in the rankings.



    The statistics are easier to find for the English Premier League.

    https://theanalyst.com/eu/2024/08/who-has-won-the-most-penalties-premier-league
     

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