You started with a false sentence means you are a hater and then the rest is the reason why he is actually underrated for casuals. Most of other players didn't played in South America either. Di Stefano playing in Milionarios would never made the TOP100 OAT for example.
Well, he scored over 700 official goals. Ad south america were on par if not better than Europe at 50s, 60s and 70s. Brazil won 3 world cups out of 4 disputed with most players playing in Brazil and the intercontinental cups were mostly dominated by south American teams
That link with the "most complete players ever" you showed (The Football Manager exercise) had something else that was interesting, apart from Gullit his #1 position. That was Yaya Toure on #3. There is indeed a risk he becomes 'forgotten' and is just another one to be a decoration and adornment for his contemporaries (the Schweinsteigers et al) or the ones before him (Scholes, Gerrard, Lampard). Many will of course know for who he was but seen like your Pirlos, Scholes and Schweinsteigers? Nah.... I don't think that is entirely correct. He had his flaws (well, also Busquets or Rodri has them in their role) but he played at a high level as CB, CM and AM. Also as DM but for some reason when used there alongside Fernandinho it did not work very well in a defensive manner. I think he was a class better than his compatriot Drogba honestly. Drogba has a certain sheen and heroism around him. Who else can play Champions League semi finals as center back and then score 20+ goals (excluding pens!) from midfield?
by the way ... right now ... PuckVanHeel.. is playing Football Manager ...alot and All the days .. in Netherlands ... hahahahaha ?? good to know about that thing ..happening .. day after day . !
My Ranking about Total Footballers abit different than that guy made it at Football Manager ..researching in 2019 .... He took ... some Players ... but forgot others ! Top 50 Total Footballers Of all time for me : # José Manuel Moreno # Valentino Mazzola # Rijkaard #Ruud Gullit # Patrick Vieira # Carlos Alberto Torres # Edson Arantes Pelé # C. Ronaldo # Thuram # Lothar Matthaus # Johan Cruyff # Johan Neeskens # Arie Haan # Ruud Krol # Alfredo Di Stefano # Claude Makelele # Edgar Davids ( until 1998 ) # Sastre # Fernando Redondo ( until 2000) # Barry Hulshoff # Blakenburg # Briegel # Antonio Cabrini # Marco Tardelli # Claudio Gentile # Andreas Brehme # Paul Breitner # Ferenc Puskas ( until 1957 ) # Diego Maradona ( World Cup 1986 version ) # Michel Platini ( 1984 and 1985 version ) # Franz Beckenbauer # Sir Bobby Charlton # Sir Duncan Edwards # Marcel Desailly # Paolo Maldini #Touré Yaya # Dirk Kuyt # Nilton Santos # Didi Folha Seca # Matthias Sammer # Carlos Mozer # Julio Cesar # Luis Pereira # Paulo Roberto Falcão # Cerezo # Scirea # Van Hanegem # Tigana Jean
No, I don't play that very often but you made me aware of the list. I looked at it again and saw Touré at #3. P.S. what a joke that Rodri is now favorite for the Ballon d'Or. Makes a mockery of all those years of excellence De Bruyne showed over the past decade. He was never close and for a long time in the lower regions of the 'award'.
Gentile was a total footballer? Scirea? Thuram, Carlos Alberto, Carlos Moser (and others) are not so obvious but make tentatively sense to me yes. Gentile is interesting to hear.
I will show you ... with very very calm ... About every name that i Listed ..there ! please .. calm down abit... you will understand my point Of view .. about these Players mentioned ..for me . !
.............. ........ Marco Tardelli pre_assist to Claudio Gentile ... Gentile crossing to Paolo Rossi ...Goal Goal Goal for Italy in the final against West Germany .. 1982 ... Imagine you PuckVanHeel.. being selected.. to do Man-Marking. specially Individual marking on Diego Maradona and Arthur Zico... by his Football Headcoach... Imagine the responsibility Do you believe you would be able to stop Maradona and Zico..?? after this.. or after all You can cross perfectly for your teammate to score the goal against West Germany ??? regards by Claudio Gentile . sends to PuckVanHeel !
in the second goal ..... What a Long range Pass .. by Claudio Gentile... against Flamengo 1983 ... in the final Of Mundialito Of clubs .. !
Ronaldo Nazario ... Maradona .... have so many many fears ... Of Carlos Mozer .. !! Carlos Mozer was a the assassin monster ! free dives Into Tackles .. always ..!!
# Mario Jorge Wolf Zagallo # Zito # Zinedine Zidane ( until JUventus de turin times ) # Djalma Santos
Regarding Thuram and Scirea maybe I think slightly the opposite: Scirea perhaps doubtful but Thuram a bit more so.... I guess basically because, although obviously total players need to be useful on the defensive side, I think I would put a certain requirement on the 'in possession' side still, that Thuram might be struggling to meet. He was not totally lacking in composure and neatness etc, I'm not saying that (maybe even as an older player at Juventus he became a bit better here? - either as right back or centre back), but I feel like in general he didn't offer a lot in terms of contributing to build-ups in a significantly incisive way or being an adept player in the opposition half, to make things happen (despite obviously those goals vs Croatia!). Scirea I would feel is probably lacking on the physical side as much as anything, especially outright pace, so it's a question of if he can be seen as a total footballer (or one of the main examples) without that, and without I suppose being so active in direct duels defensively (being more of the covering player in essence, which suited his qualities best of course, even though I'd say he was very good in reading the game, intercepting etc and could make good tackles and headers at times too, evidently).
Does complete also mean versatile? As in the ability to play in any position without looking out of place? Because Phillip Cocu might rank pretty highly in that regard. Not whether the player had the hypothetical individual toolkits and potential to play in all positions, after being coached and trained. I think the dude was literally capable of slotting into any position with no notice and playing like a professional who played there for an entire career. Tactically disciplined in most scenarios, amazing consistency in being positionally correct, always doing what makes sense for the team rather than marketing his own individual abilities, which weren't that shabby at all, especially in conjunction with one another. Sufficient speed and stamina, sturdy enough to be not bullied around physically, sound aerially, two-footed and able to play on both sides of the pitch, as well as being capable in defence and attack. Most players who possess the toolkits (individual prowess such as speed and skills) to be complete are rarely fully tactically aware defensively speaking, and those who are well-versed tactically in the defensive arts rarely have the individual toolkits to play across the more advanced and probably individually demanding roles. I think Phillip Cocu had a healthy mix of both. Not the most impressive player, but one that makes the team better. Always.
Thuram wouldn't be in the first row for me but I can see the idea with his physical attributes, his directness at times and varying the defensive styles. The 1999 UEFA Cup final is a good advert for him, also for the offense. What became later known as Pharma (over here) looked very strong there. But I don't think he had an as good (early) cross as, say, when Jaap Stam played as right-back (who even had some quality balls with his left foot vs Juventus!). (for ex. 7:05, 7:92) Scirea was 'just' an old school sweeper in a classic sweeper system. Much more so than Tresor or Krol in his time he had some very specific attributes and specific flaws (compare: Busquets). He wasn't a Serie A level player in any other role or position. My initial reaction is to see Thuram as a better fit for the tag 'complete'. I'd agree Cocu is a good one, but of course from his own country there are some better players (like Gullit, Cruijff). He scored goals in more than one Champions League semi final (e.g. 2000, 2005). Was a notable player for a very long time. He already was at Vitesse (then NT manager Dick Advocaat had him in the picture but said "should he play in the place of Bergkamp then?") and was that still at the age of 37, in Champions League games. When Bergkamp made his 'Perfect XI' for FourFourTwo in 2005 he had Cocu in his team as you already saw (maybe I need to show again?). He said he prefers midfield players who can score goals and that Cocu fits that bill. edit: you can see here the absolute number of young people (under-20) peaked between 1966 and 1976. Around 1900 Belgium as well as Sweden had a higher population than us. In 2024 around 30% of the population had one of the parents born abroad. https://www.cbs.nl/nl-nl/nieuws/2024/33/nederland-heeft-18-miljoen-inwoners
Yeah, possibly you were thinking more in terms of positional/role versatility (I think Scirea played a bit more as general centre back later on as the defensive system changed a bit though didn't he?) - Cocu certainly does meet that criteria anyway yeah - and me more about capabilities (passing, control, reading the game, tackling, scoring, dribbling etc) when feeling a little more inclined to consider Scirea than Thuram...
Some Examples ..... ...... Jean Tigana, Antonio Cabrini and Alfredo Di Stefano;; They didn't have much physical strength and body balance...as Ruud Gullit..Rijkaard..Patrick Vieira..Adriano Drunk...Erling Haaland. etc... etc.. etc.. But.. they could.. be in every part of the Field..all the time ... Covering the whole field easily no excuses man ! and making offensive and defensive transitions all the time and running all the time.. with excellent resistance, stamina .. mobility agility composure positive mental strenght Tactical and mental intelligence... positioning anticipating concentration per 96 minutes ..( extra time )
I see what you mean but tentatively Scirea felt more like 'the Busquets of sweepers'. If you get that comparison. Technically great yes, but also specialists and with very clear flaws. Scirea was a less cynical player though. P.S. it is peculiar how Fbref sees De Ligt as the most similar player to Van Dijk (often seen as a complete defender etc.) Lothar Matthäus said this below today. Probably another sign the relationship between Netherlands and Germany has normalized somewhat. That is a good thing (despite some bickering about the Italian officiating). The visiting German fans seems to have been treated very well. There is an ongoing police strike. Ajax vs Feyenoord had to be cancelled but this game was never in doubt. The Amsterdam mayor was certain there would be no problem ("if not, I resign"). Angry Matthäus doesn't understand De Ligt's departure from Bayern Matthijs de Ligt had an unpleasant international period. However, the defender still has a good name in Germany, it turns out. Lothar Matthäus finds it incomprehensible that Bayern Munich let him go to Manchester United. "The defense is Bayern's Achilles heel. Without De Ligt it remains that way," Matthäus told German Sky. "De Ligt was by far the club's most stable defender. And yet they sold him." This is met with incomprehension by the critical club icon. 'De Ligt was the leader and stabilizing factor of the defence. Now Bayern is looking for a leader again. For me, that is a pathetic policy. If De Ligt had stayed, I would not have worried. Now I doubt Bayern. It is not good for Bayern and it is not good for De Ligt who again has to find stability. It is a loss for both.' 'Everyone knows that Bayern's defence is shaky', says Matthäus. 'It is a situation that we have to accept. But the best performing defender in both seasons has been sold and when I hear that, I shake my head. I like De Ligt, but he has also performed accordingly.'