In the 1981–82 season, Gullit was in fine form as Haarlem finished fourth and qualified for Europe for the only time in their history. In that same season, Gullit scored the goal he would later consider his finest: "Playing against Utrecht I went past four defenders and then the goalkeeper, and scored. It was an unforgettable goal for me."[12] Barry Hughes was so impressed with the young Gullit that he described him as the "Dutch Duncan Edwards".[11] you know that Goal ...the famous Goal Of Gullit .... today i saw ...one nice picture from this goal .... really ... Gullit knockout past ... 3 or 4 defenders .... later he dribbled ...the goalkeeper Van Breukelen from Holland team side .. PuckVanHeel .. he found ... on the journal ..
Yeah, I don't know exactly how these figures are made (for Pele, also the Cruyff/Puskas ones) but I guess it must be somebody's attempt for all assists, pre-assists, rebound assists, penalty assists, penalties won etc (i.e widest 'assist' count)? Although we know I think that all 3 of them have a lot of direct (and Opta-valid) assists anyway too. Among the most of all-time it seems I think....
@SayWhatIWant @Isaías Silva Serafim Are you guys following this thread? I saw some numbers quoted for pre assists/secondary assists but since then a lot of posts have been added what is the absolute maximum number of pre assists for a single player being quoted here and what is the exact definition of pre assists being given? Are the examples of pre assists provided exactly in line with the agreed upon definition or is there some trickery going on aswell? Let me know if/when you can either here or Via PM thanks
I followed a little and I don't know exactly who you're talking about. I saw PDG counting pre assists on transfermarket criteria for example (penalty won) while Letmepost seems to count pre assists in the opta criteria (the pass before the pass for goal). In the letmepost post he leaves a link to a website that gives 15 pre-assists for KDB in 17/18 (which is the highest tally quoted here) but latter, he provides an Bundesliga who gives 8 pré assists for Sancho in 19/20 while the former site has awarded him with 11 so maybe one site is being more restrictive with the counts than the other
And it was extremely clear I was not including penalties won in the narrowest counts, and not without specifically referring to them either. Everyone can see that.
In fact I never labelled any penalty won as a 'pre-assist' in any post. I did include them in posts about Laudrup's pre-assists, but as an extra. I don't think Letmepost ever included any of them in any counts he did using my posts, but I even pointed out that the tally for 91/92 would be 9 rather than 13 (which would include wider pre-assists - passes before the last one and rebounds etc) that he had initially tallied, if using the narrower criteria (last pass preceding an OPTA-valid assist basically). When I was counting up assists for Platini, Maradona and Rumenigge in Serie A I hadn't specifically been counting pre-assists, but just making some mentions about them sometimes and noting that Maradona seemed to have about 11 (I don't remember exactly without re-checking but I would think a few perhaps wouldn't be meeting Opta-criteria by the way though) in 1986/87 (which fits with the 'assist' tally including pre-assists in the excerpt Vegan10 had provided for that season in Serie A too). Again any mention of penalties won there was separate (I was mainly counting Opta-style assists on that thread at that time). EDIT - My initial tallies for Laudrup didn't include pre-assists on goals he scored himself. Secondary assists don't seem a regular Opta stats it seems, but potentially they would be included. Anyway I made a new post highlighting the ones that could be added to Laudrup's pre-assist tally in that case (again separating out the pre-assists and pre-pre-assists and to clarify I think it would be ones in the first category that would be among the valid narrow pre-assists/secondary assists). Anyway, hopefully everyone can see I only posted honestly without any deception or 'trickery' (separating pre-assists by type, also in the summaries about them, and identifying the player who finally scored the goal in each case and/or providing a video and a timestamp....).
Not sure if my wall of texts help clarify anything, but as for me, I'm having serious difficulties finding substantial pre-assists data of any sort of description, even before trying to filter them out for precise definitions, or some sort of data-base I can cross-reference with a video footage, the way I can with the usual OPTA data. I don't even know which games or timestamps I should look into for all of these pre-assists, except for the manually written pre-assists of Michael Laudrup found on this site. All I can say is that most of the references I came across with mentions of pre-assist tallies such as Kicker magazine site, FBREF site, and Borussia Dortmund fan site, seem to have a broader definition than OPTA for "secondary assists" that they sometimes publish from time to time. The most extensive data-base by far is found on FBREF, but you need to sort of manufacture it through crude calculations, and the numbers you find definitely will not coincide with the OPTA "secondary assists". It seems to be more of a passion project to pay homage to players who are not that well-expressed by the more openly available OPTA assists, but still were creative in some manner such as Tomas Rosicky. From the Michael Laudrup numbers I see, I think he may follow this profile. I probably would advise counting liberally first with descriptions, subtract the appropriate examples to match the definitions of pre-existing tallies (or ask the people who published the tallies), to compare with the same exact criteria. That's what I would personally do with players I am obsessed about, and think would benefit from a pre-assist tally.
Thanks for the rep @SayWhatIWant - I appreciate that. Yeah, Letmepost, I think the trouble is the definition of pre-assists seems to be a bit sketchy. Maybe using secondary assists for the ones that are the passes directly preceding an assist would be best (like Opta do, but they just don't seem very regular with publishing data about it do they and they don't list it on their site with a definition as such and slightly confusingly list a wider 'Second Assists' criteria on there as well) 'Pre-assists' here are referring to all passes in a move before a goal it seems I think, for example (maybe also shots? - I didn't study it closely): Ranking of the top 20 players in "pre-assists" : r/soccer (reddit.com) I think Wiliam was using a wider pre-assist criteria already, for various players, so has used my Laudrup data the same way (not including penalties won by the player, Laudrup in this case, but including 'penalty pre-assists' which I had labelled clearly on my Laudrup posts always mentioning the word penalty (note: before I meant I'd never called a penalty won when he was fouled a pre-assist - these passes before penalties won by others are pre-assists in a way I guess but not I assume Opta-valid ones because Opta don't count penalties won as assists of course do they), where there was a pass directly preceding a penalty won and scored). He also specifically calls some pre-assists 'Type 2' (outside the strictest definition, as per the Opta tweets, due to not being the last-but-one pass or because of a rebound or suchlike I think) - like I said before I wouldn't be 100% sure I caught all examples of those for Laudrup anyway (note: and I'm pretty sure I didn't and wasn't trying to - see the part of my 1991/92 summary that says "I'm not tending to mention things that wide"), but where I'd noted those I labelled them separately (in posts that originally were mainly about counting Laudrup's Opta assists on Trachta's thread, like the Platini/Maradona/Rummenigge ones were too on Vegan10s thread originally - any pre-assist involvements mentioned were to highlight the wider involvement as an aside re: Laudrup's lists and also the 1986/87 tally of Maradona for example). I did say more than once to Letmepost/Wiliam that I thought the narrowest/Opta pre-assist (secondary assist) count for Laudrup in La Liga 1991/92 would be 9, not 13, though (everyone can see that I'm sure on this thread). Me and Wiliam probably both conclude that finding all Copa del Rey pre-assists would be hard/impossible (maybe also for La Liga 1989/90, in terms of every game, I think by the way). Although for 1991/92 it's clear I think that the one pre-assist by Laudrup outside La Liga would be the one Wiliam pointed out in the Supercup game vs Werder Bremen, and that one would not be one of the narrowest/Opta ones because it involved a goalie save and goal from the rebound. Here is a copy and paste of the 1991/92 assists and pre-assists etc again (I think the penalty pre-assists are certainly noteworthy and just as important in the goal being scored, but like I say I don't think they would be in Opta tallies (although am not 100% sure I guess as I didn't check through for De Bruyne for example - although the tally of 15 for 2017/18 didn't come from Opta anyway of course), so like I've said more than once already it seems like his 1991/92 Opta secondary assist tally (narrow pre-assists if you like) would be 9, with these ones below the copy and paste being the qualifying ones: "(Pre-assist vs Real Sociedad (h) - final pass, with a nutmeg, before penalty is won for Koeman's goal) Assist 1 to Salinas vs Real Oviedo (h) (Penalty assist vs Real Madrid (a) - fouled before Koeman scores the penalty goal) (Pre-assist vs Atletico Madrid (h) - on only goal, by Stoichkov) (Pre-assist vs Osasuna (h) - through ball pass before penalty is won for Koeman's goal) (Pre-assist vs Deportivo (a) - on goal 2, by Stoichkov) (Pre-assist vs Deportivo (a) on goal 4, by Begiristain) (Pre-assist vs Tenerife (h) on goal 5, by Salinas) Assist 2 to Amor vs Burgos (a) Assist 3 to Salinas vs Vallodolid (h) (Arguably the key pass on other goal vs Vallodolid, but I'm not tending to mention things that 'wide' and there were several passes and a save before the goal, but yeah it made the opening initially!) (Pre-assist vs Espanyol (h) - on opening goal, by Begiristain) (Pre-assist vs Espanyol (h) - on 3rd goal, by Stoichkov) (Pre-assist vs Bilbao (a) - on opening goal, by Bakero) Assist 4 to Stoichkov vs Albacete (h) (Pre-assist vs Burgos (h) - on only goal, by Amor) (Pre-assist, or maybe not because of contact on ball by opposition player, vs Vallodolid (a) - opening goal by Stoichkov) Assist 5 to Nadal vs Vallodolid (a) (Pre-assist on goal 5 vs Vallodolid (a) (Pre-assist vs Espanyol (a) - final (scooped) pass before penalty is won for Koeman's goal) Assist 6 to Begiristain vs Espanyol (a)" Fc Barcelona - Atletico Madrid 1-0 1991-1992 (youtube.com) (1:55) Deportivo de La Coruña - Fc Barcelona 0 - 4 1991-1992 (youtube.com) (1:31 and 2:54) Fc Barcelona - Cd Tenerife 5 - 3 1991-1992 (youtube.com) (3:01) Fc Barcelona - Espanyol 4-3 1991-1992 (youtube.com) (0:10 and 1:49) Campió de Lliga 91 92.Tots Els Gols Del Barça (youtube.com) (15:26 vs Athletic Bilbao away) Fc Barcelona - Real Burgos FC 1-1 1991 - 1992 (youtube.com) (1:43) 24/05/1992 Real Valladolid 0-6 FC Barcelona LA LIGA 1991/1992, Jornada 36. - YouTube (1:18:28 - I must have counted this as a pre-assist thinking it went down as an own-goal...unless I wondered about a deflection after the pass too...., but I think maybe it can be an assist instead which would make the assist count 7 for La Liga 1991/92 and the narrow pre-assist count 8, with 11 or 12 for wider pre-assists...I think) This site has it down as a Nadal goal at least, and it seems like it would be in today's game for sure (probably back then too though I'd think) Valladolid - Barcelona (0-6) - League - 24/05/1992 | FC Barcelona Players
Maybe I should show the Maradona 1986/87 ones too: 1986/87, (Napoli), Napoli - Torino 3-1 (04) (youtube.com) (0:15 - the others in the game would count as wider 'pre-assists' I guess, but I'll just tally the probable Opta definition ones, without deflections/saves etc being involved - he had a wider pre-assist with a free-kick saved onto the bar plus a penalty won at Sampdoria away too but I'll not count either of those either here either for example) Roma - Napoli 0-1, 1986-87 (youtube.com) (1:24 - I guess this counts as a pre-assist on a goal he scored himself?) Juventus - Napoli 1-3, serie A 1986-87, da 90esimo - YouTube (1:26) 1986/87, (Napoli), Napoli - Como 2-1 (13) (youtube.com) (0:17 I think and 0:58) 15 - Napoli - Ascoli 3-0 | Serie A 1986-87 | Maradona played | dalla DS | riedited in 4:3. (youtube.com) (2:25) 1986/87, (Napoli), Napoli - Juventus 2-1 (24) (youtube.com) (3:07 if it's a pre-assist and not a pre-pre-assist) Maybe 7 by strictest Opta definitions then, but Wiliam would be counting more in theory, and potentially Trachta too (not sure) and the Italian press. I didn't include this one from 0:30, but it would make it 8 (do we know the rules regarding one-twos? - he is the 3rd last player involved in the move but with a one-two between the other two): 29 - Napoli - Fiorentina 1-1 | Serie A 1986-87 | dalla DS | Maradona played | riedited in 4:3. (youtube.com) There is some chance that on a small number goals he could have been the pre-assister but the footage I saw wasn't long enough to show it too, but 7 would be the absolute minimum Opta-valid count in theory I think (not as many as the 11 'pre-assists' I'd noted as possibilities originally which wouldn't have included the one on the goal he scored I think actually).
...... one important thing is : even Eredivisie ... and Serie A Calcio ... 80's they counted ... Indirect Assists for sure .. ! for example ... Gullit 1983/84 22 Assists Record Eredivisie ... that speaks that ! not me !
........https://1xbet.whoscored.com/Article...he-Race-to-Become-the-Eredivisies-Assist-King Every Player of the History ... has Indirect Assists ....counted .. even Kevin de Bruyne ... in Bundesliga has !!
........... has penalties suffered by own Kevin De Bruyne ... 305 assists in career .. has penalties suffered by own Ronaldinho ... 230 or 232 assists in career .. has penalties suffered by own Maradona ... 239 or 254 assists in career .. i never included this by Gullit in 211 assists in career ..is without penalties suffered by own Gullit .. but i will start including ...these type assists as well is not fair with Gullit on my view
Hmm, I don't know whether WhoScored is taking old stats and comparing them to new Opta-generated ones there (with different criteria)? WhoScored uses Opta for their data of course, and Opta says this: "The final touch from a teammate, which leads to the recipient of the ball scoring a Goal. If the assist is deflected by an opposition player, it must be deemed as travelling to the Goal-scorer irrespective of the deflection. In the event of an own Goal, direct free kick Goal and direct corner Goal, an assist will not be awarded. This same rule applies to penalties unless the penalty taker chooses to pass the ball for another player to score. Also see ‘Fantasy Assist.’ " Opta Event Definitions - Stats Perform And for sure in the past different definitions have existed - the ones used in Italy clearly wider than the ones used in France back in the 1980s for example ('Decisive passes' in France basically - not all Opta assists would even meet this criteria I know, and I think some FIFA-reported 'assist' tallies seem to have worked on a similar basis in the past also as I remember someone showing on the forum that Pele didn't have an assist to Jairzinho vs Czechoslovakia in 1970 in a FIFA report or something, because it was deemed a solo goal, for example): French First Division Assists Leaders since 1982/1983 (France Football's final rankings) | BigSoccer Forum
yes... with the same criteria of being equals for all players... in History...of the Football .... it's fair for me !
........................... The problem is that many people manipulate and cheat on Internet for example this ... for some players is valid only Direct Assists ... (Opta Style ) to other players .... they are including Direct Assists .... Indirect Assists( is valid for me until here) .... later too Penalties Suffered by own Players ....( in Senior Squad Level and youth Level ) even .... sub- 17 sub- 20 .... sub-21 .... sub-19... sub-23 etc ..etc .. categories ... sub-s youth Level ... i saw this ... for example ... to Diego Armando Maradona .. and Ronaldinho Gaucho on Internet ...