Who is the most overrated all time great?

Discussion in 'The Beautiful Game' started by Neron Nuñez, Jul 7, 2024.

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Who are the most overrated all time greats?

  1. R9

    10 vote(s)
    22.2%
  2. Zidane

    8 vote(s)
    17.8%
  3. Cristiano Ronaldo

    19 vote(s)
    42.2%
  4. Ronaldinho

    8 vote(s)
    17.8%
  1. PDG1978

    PDG1978 Member+

    Mar 8, 2009
    Club:
    Nottingham Forest FC
    Exactly the same number lol?! I guess you mean you don't know, but you think it will be a similar number (so I'm just making a bad joke I guess!).

    Foul numbers did come down in general though:
    https://www.bigsoccer.com/threads/predictions-2021-2022.2116808/page-5#post-40066113
    "edit: fouls per game since 1998 has been down with 45-50% in the Premier League. That's a fact."

    I remember of course that whimsy on Twitter had made some posts we discussed before:
    https://www.bigsoccer.com/threads/c...-of-pure-ability.2126439/page-5#post-41515637

    I happened to see this attempt for 1996/97 and this interesting table for dribbling (without verifying them of course):
    Ronaldo on X: "Ronaldo Nazário Stats for FC Barcelona 49 games (4240 minutes) ⚽️ 47 goals (0.99) 11 assists (0.23) 217 shots / 124 on target (2.63) ‍♂️ 220 successful dribbles (4.67) 42 key passes (0.89) 9 BCC (0.19) ❌ 15 BCM (0.32) 126 fouls won (2.68) 49 games sampled https://t.co/EZ9sjZw4d0" / X
    Ronaldo on X: "Ronaldo Nazário's dribbles in 1996/97 and 1997/98 compared to Messi, Cristiano, and Neymar (league only) https://t.co/TPJsOCPz9c" / X

    These two are probably two more you could add to his 'best games' collection I guess (for dribbles and/or generally):

     
  2. SayWhatIWant

    SayWhatIWant Member+

    Jan 10, 2015
    For a non-native speaker without a background in statistics/science, I can understand why "biased sample" is lost in its meaning. A biased sample = non-representative sample. Which it absolutely is. This is non-debatable.
    The complexity and execution of R9's dribble was superior to CR7's. He succeeded in areas and situations better than Cristiano. Better problem solver in that regard.

    CR7 converted to a CF slowly from around 2015. With some variations in deployment game to game. I would say up to 2018 - he could rival any of these guys at their peaks despite not being a natural CF - to his credit.

    CR7 - again to his credit - went through different phases of his career. I presume when we talk about these players we are comparing peaks. In which case, CR7 was no longer a wide midfielder.
    I strongly encourage you to rewatch R9 who played a free role - unlike what some of you have characterized him as a player. I would also go as far as to say that R9 has a technical edge over Cristiano.
    As for which player I would prefer overall - I would lean Cristiano - mainly because of the intersection of longevity and his supernatural goalscoring ability in CL.
    I would never consider him as in another category to R9 - an absurd proposition.
     
  3. Isaías Silva Serafim

    Real Madrid
    Brazil
    Dec 2, 2021
    Nat'l Team:
    Brazil
    I didn't want to have to do this, but since you made that bad joke, here goes:

    Fouls won by R9 until 2004
    1998 WC: 1.6 per game
    2002 WC: 2.0
    03/04 UCL: 1.6

    Fouls won by CR7 until 2014
    03/04 UCL: 2.4
    2004 euro: 2.2
    04/05 UCL: 4.3!!!
    05/06 UCL: 3.3
    2006 World Cup: 3.8!!
    06/07 UCL: 2.9
    07/08 UCL: 4.2!!!
    2008 euro: 2.7
    08/09 UCL: 3.1
    09/10 UCL: 2.3

    Well I think I don't need to go until 2014. You are right. They didn't receive the same number of fouls. It's just a FACT that CR7 received FAR MORE fouls per game than R9 in the recorded data.

    As for whimsy, he and I saying two different numbers counts the same. I'm providing official numbers from opta to prove my point
     
  4. SayWhatIWant

    SayWhatIWant Member+

    Jan 10, 2015
    Clown

    No point is being proven my friend. One is a complete dataset. The other are a set of a few matches the majority of which are post-injury/prime.
    If you really believe prime R9 dribbled 1.6 times per game, I can't help you and this conversation is not fruitful
     
  5. Isaías Silva Serafim

    Real Madrid
    Brazil
    Dec 2, 2021
    Nat'l Team:
    Brazil
    After his injury in 2014 I think he converted into a second striker rather than a center forward. He always played alongside a pure striker since then be it Benzema at Real Madrid or Morata at Juventus. Ronaldo were the one that drop deep to collect the ball more often than the pure striker who played with him. He turned into a striker only when he came back to ManUtd in 21/22
     
  6. Isaías Silva Serafim

    Real Madrid
    Brazil
    Dec 2, 2021
    Nat'l Team:
    Brazil
    Yes, I actually think R9 averaged 1.9 dribbles per game at his peak (96-99) and at most 2 fouls won per game. It's a very high number for a center forward but it's still lower than prime C. Ronaldo (06-14). I have no way of proving that he had that average at the club (and you can't prove otherwise also), but his form in the World Cups at least suggests it. Remembering that in the national team he had a better team and he generally performed better in the national team than in the club. At least at continental level.

    Furthermore, I only included the best seasons because from 05/06 onwards his performance drops drastically as he gains weight.
     
  7. Al Gabiru

    Al Gabiru Member

    Jan 28, 2020
    #57 Al Gabiru, Aug 10, 2024
    Last edited: Aug 10, 2024
    I don't think Ronaldo Nazário's figures in 1998 reflect who he was at his peak. Because he had a stroke before the final. And one match that was very poor undermined all his averages in a short tournament. We also don't know if his whole tournament was down or not and the stroke was a consequence. Only if we had more data.
     
  8. Wiliam Felipe Gracek

    Santos FC
    France
    Feb 3, 2024




    honestly


    How many whole matches really you saw of Ronaldo Nazario in 1997/98 even Inter and Brazilian National Team side ????



    honestly to watch only Highlights at You Tube ... never will be show you the real average Of Players ????
     
  9. Isaías Silva Serafim

    Real Madrid
    Brazil
    Dec 2, 2021
    Nat'l Team:
    Brazil
    A correction here. In 98 he had 2.9 fouls won per game. 1.6 were the number of offsides.

    If we take out the final (in which he won 2 fouls) it would increase his average since in the game against Netherlands alone he won 6 fouls. But I think it's unfair to CR7 unless we remove all the games in which he didn't played well also. If we take out this game against Netherlands which clearly is an outlier and not representative of what he were on average also, that would decrease significantly his average of fouls won per game on that tournament
     
    Wiliam Felipe Gracek repped this.
  10. Wiliam Felipe Gracek

    Santos FC
    France
    Feb 3, 2024
    According with a simple field " grass " of the Football says for us or showing for us :

    as simple as that !


    without to need on SofaScore ratings ..Like Carlito 86 does always hahahaha ...here





    Ranking the best brazilian Players Of all times " only brazilians here "



    1# Edson Arantes Pelé 1, 52 % G+A # WEIGHTS IN .. 1 Striker


    2# Zico 1,02 % G+A .. 1 Striker


    3# Neymar Jr 0, 95 % G+A ... 1 Striker


    4# Romario 0, 93 % G+A ..... 1 Striker


    5# RONALDO NAZARIO 0, 89 % G+A ...... 1 Striker


    6# MANE GARRINCHA 0, 72 % .G+A ...... 2 midfielder right winger playmaker


    7# RIVALDO 0, 68 % G+A ... 1 Striker


    8# DIDI 0, 66 % G+A ... 2 midfielder



    9# RONALDINHO Gaucho 0,65 % G+A ... 1 Striker


    10# Kaka Ricardo 0, 56 % G+A .. 1 Striker



    11# Paulo Roberto FALCÃO 0, 53 % G+A ... 2 midfielder
     
  11. Wiliam Felipe Gracek

    Santos FC
    France
    Feb 3, 2024


    ............
    According with a simple field " grass " of the Football says for us or showing for us :

    as simple as that !


    without to need on SofaScore ratings ..Like Carlito 86 does always hahahaha ...here





    Ranking the best brazilian Players Of all times " only brazilians here "



    1# Edson Arantes Pelé 1, 52 % G+A # WEIGHTS IN .. 1 Striker


    2# Zico 1,02 % G+A .. 1 Striker


    3# Neymar Jr 0, 95 % G+A ... 1 Striker


    4# Romario 0, 93 % G+A ..... 1 Striker


    5# RONALDO NAZARIO 0, 89 % G+A ...... 1 Striker


    6# MANE GARRINCHA 0, 72 % .G+A ...... 2 midfielder right winger playmaker


    7# RIVALDO 0, 68 % G+A ... 1 Striker


    8# DIDI 0, 66 % G+A ... 2 midfielder



    9# RONALDINHO Gaucho 0,65 % G+A ... 1 Striker


    10# Kaka Ricardo 0, 56 % G+A .. 1 Striker



    11# Paulo Roberto FALCÃO 0, 53 % G+A ... 2 midfielder
     
  12. Wiliam Felipe Gracek

    Santos FC
    France
    Feb 3, 2024
    According with a simple field " grass " of the Football says for us or showing for us :

    as simple as that !


    without to need on SofaScore ratings ..Like Carlito 86 does always hahahaha ...here





    Ranking the best brazilian Players Of all times " only brazilians here "



    1# Edson Arantes Pelé 1, 52 % G+A # WEIGHTS IN .. 1 Striker


    2# Zico 1,02 % G+A .. 1 Striker


    3# Neymar Jr 0, 95 % G+A ... 1 Striker


    4# Romario 0, 93 % G+A ..... 1 Striker


    5# RONALDO NAZARIO 0, 89 % G+A ...... 1 Striker


    6# MANE GARRINCHA 0, 72 % .G+A ...... 2 midfielder right winger playmaker


    7# RIVALDO 0, 68 % G+A ... 1 Striker


    8# DIDI 0, 66 % G+A ... 2 midfielder



    9# RONALDINHO Gaucho 0,65 % G+A ... 1 Striker


    10# Kaka Ricardo 0, 56 % G+A .. 1 Striker



    11# Paulo Roberto FALCÃO 0, 53 % G+A ... 2 midfielder
     
  13. Wiliam Felipe Gracek

    Santos FC
    France
    Feb 3, 2024

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3Pbi74Z0w8Q





    Fernando Redondo Show against Brazil in 1999


    Argentina ... won Coca Cola Belo Horizonte Cup in 1999

    2 x 0 home game ...

    2 x 4 for Brazil ... away game .... on away goals . won this Title against Brazil



    Fernando Redondo destroying with Ronaldinho Gaucho and Rivaldo on this match ..



    What a show was that match ! in 1999
     
  14. SayWhatIWant

    SayWhatIWant Member+

    Jan 10, 2015
    I think you need to watch more footage. It is clear to me my friend that you are completely aloof as to Ronaldo's playstyle. He was 9/10 hybrid with a free role with a high bolume of touches. Your conception of him as a player is completely off the mark and more in line with his 2002 version where he reinvented himself. I find these conversations discussing past players that a poster was not around to even watch with such certainty a bit tiresome tbh. We should be a community that spreads knowledge. For example, I avoid discussing Pele / Cruyff with much certainty ad I was not around to watch them. So I defer to others as well to form an opinion. Better to have the humility yo learn than get things completely wrong
     
    Wiliam Felipe Gracek repped this.
  15. Wiliam Felipe Gracek

    Santos FC
    France
    Feb 3, 2024




    yes ... agree with you dear mate !



     
    SayWhatIWant repped this.
  16. Wiliam Felipe Gracek

    Santos FC
    France
    Feb 3, 2024



    yes to watch completely whole matches ...



    not only Highlights at You Tube ! that's it !
     
    SayWhatIWant repped this.
  17. Wiliam Felipe Gracek

    Santos FC
    France
    Feb 3, 2024



    According with a simple field " grass " of the Football says for us or showing for us :

    as simple as that !


    without to need on SofaScore ratings ..Like Carlito 86 does always hahahaha ...here





    Ranking the best brazilian Players Of all times " only brazilians here "



    1# Edson Arantes Pelé 1, 52 % G+A # WEIGHTS IN .. 1 Striker


    2# Zico 1,02 % G+A .. 1 Striker


    3# Neymar Jr 0, 95 % G+A ... 1 Striker


    4# Romario 0, 93 % G+A ..... 1 Striker


    5# RONALDO NAZARIO 0, 89 % G+A ...... 1 Striker


    6# MANE GARRINCHA 0, 72 % .G+A ...... 2 midfielder right winger playmaker


    7# RIVALDO 0, 68 % G+A ... 1 Striker


    8# DIDI 0, 66 % G+A ... 2 midfielder



    9# RONALDINHO Gaucho 0,65 % G+A ... 1 Striker


    10# Kaka Ricardo 0, 56 % G+A .. 1 Striker



    11# Paulo Roberto FALCÃO 0, 53 % G+A ... 2 midfielder
     
  18. Wiliam Felipe Gracek

    Santos FC
    France
    Feb 3, 2024
  19. SayWhatIWant

    SayWhatIWant Member+

    Jan 10, 2015
    You would be hardpressed to find a performance as positive in a final from Cristiano.

    To understand the forum dynamics, you must realize that some of the posters fall under broad categories:

    Messiphiles / Barcelona-philes
    -Dogmas: Messi is the greatest and there is no discussion. Best goalscorer. Best dribbler. Best assister. Never fails - if ever he did not have a success, it was because of his bad teammates. Greatest WC performance. Greatest UCL. Greatest Copa. Greatest La Liga. In short, in any category or competition Messi has been in - he is categorized as the greatest without question.
    -Tend to overrate Barca / City (Pep connection) players, namely: Suarez/Lewa, Xavi, Busquets, KDB, Rodri. They are the ones convincing us that Rodri is the clear BDor candidate.
    ex: lessthanjake, fff, sexybeast

    Modernists / Cristiano fans
    -Modern players are better than previous players. By modern, they mean the last generation (not this one) - ie. the gen they grew up with is the best.
    -The only player that compares to Cristiano is Messi. The objective is to raise Messi's profile and associate Ronaldo's with it.
    -Like Messiphiles, extremely stat-driven.
    ex: Carlito, Isaiah

    Eurocentrists
    -Latin americans are overrated. Football is a conspiracy. Dutch players are unfairly maligned.
    ex: Puckvanheel
     
    Wiliam Felipe Gracek repped this.
  20. Wiliam Felipe Gracek

    Santos FC
    France
    Feb 3, 2024


    hahahahahaha it is pretty funny to see ...... i agree with you totally dear mate ....


    hahahahahahahaha !




    do you like really great Football .;;; ???? if yes .... later to watch ...Argentina vs Brazil in 1999



    What a Show was from Argentina against Brazil .... touches Of God onthis match there ....!




     
  21. Wiliam Felipe Gracek

    Santos FC
    France
    Feb 3, 2024


    perfect comment hahahaha ! i can't be doing better than that !
     
  22. carlito86

    carlito86 Member+

    Jan 11, 2016
    Club:
    Real Madrid
    #72 carlito86, Aug 10, 2024
    Last edited: Aug 10, 2024
    IMG_4972.jpeg

    IMG_4971.jpeg
    https://statsbomb.com/articles/socc...peak-inter-against-lazio-1998-uefa-cup-final/

    Vs IMG_4973.jpeg IMG_4974.jpeg

    compare a grossly inflated ‘good’ player to a real life savage on the pitch and this is what you get

    8 successful dribbles
    9 fouls won
    3 key passes
    a goal from open play

    these are statistics you will never see associated with R9
    Ever

    let alone against the second best team in the freaking world in a champions league final

    who the fu*k are lazio?

    He is 34 years old here almost 35
    IMG_4975.jpeg
     
  23. Wiliam Felipe Gracek

    Santos FC
    France
    Feb 3, 2024

    yes honestly ... i prefer Ferenc Puskas and Pelé ... than Messi !
     
  24. SayWhatIWant

    SayWhatIWant Member+

    Jan 10, 2015

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