Let's get the elephant out of the room. Cristiano is considered top 3 in history because of his 5 UCLs all as the most standout player and his records (most official goals in history, most goals at UCL, most goals at euros, etc...). Except by Messi and Pelé, none of those players you mentioned had the combination of concistency, longevity and success of Cristiano. Cruijff won 3 UCLs as the most standout player, Maradona were a liability at UCL, Platini had only 1 and Henry had only a runner up. The only players who compare to Cristiano are Di Stefano and Messi. (Di Stefano with 4 UCLs as the most standout player since in 59/60 Puskás were the most standout player and Messi with 3 UCLs as the most standout player since in 05/06 Ronaldinho were the most standout player). You can argue that none of those players played for prime Real Madrid and Man Utd but then I can also argue that Ronaldo didn't played for prime Brazil (Pelé), Netherlands (Cruijff) and Argentina (Messi)
Group A yes .... Pelé ;; Messi ... C. Ronaldo .. Johan Cruyff ... Ferenc Puskas ... Alfredo Di Stefano are in mountain with the Gods of Football ( the maximum Olimpo ) most Goals ... most Assists .... most Pre-assists of the History .... Group B Maradona ... Platini .... Matthaus ... Beckenbauer ... Gerd Muller .. Ronaldo Nazario ..Romario ...Van Basten ... Ruud Gullit .... Kocsis ... Eusebio .. etc...
if were like PuckVanHeel ... list ... he puts Frank Rijkaard ...Dennis Bergkamp ... Koeman ... Robben .... Wesley Sneijder ... Hazard .... de Bruyne ... Paul Van Himst ...Seedoorf ...Davids ...Cocu..Wilmots Mpenza in Group B too ! but just kidding abit here my spiritual brother .. PuckVanHeel . thank you dear mate ! with all due respect for you . !
How is winning 5 UCL with prime United and superteam Madrid more impressive than 3 UCL with his hometown team Ajax? The Elo Rating impact showed Cruyff's trajectory was more impressive than this, also he guidding a struggling Barcelona to La Liga title after a decade and a GOAT World Cup level was testament to his firepower as a player and adaptability. That was in his prime. Cristiano Ronaldo in his so called prime (2010-2014... you can chose three consecutive seasons in the frametime) won just one UCL (defeated against the ones of Dortmund and Lyon among others.. competent, but rather cheaper clubs) while putting decent tournaments (Euro 2012) alongside really disaster tournaments World Cup's (2010 and 2014), one UCL, one La Liga. How is this a GOAT prime? Maybe not even T10. I don't deny Cristiano's consistency in beng World Class for a several years, but his prime is ultimately overrated compared to his status which makes him overrated.
I don't put all those players at the same level. There are sometimes about three tiers between them. I'd put Cruijff and Cristiano at the same level. Counting number of Champions Leagues is not what I'd do. It is a bad method. You can easily say Messi had big lucky breaks in 2009 and 2011 while Ronaldo was very fortunate in some of the latter CLs he won (with the red card for Buffon, multiple offside goals against Bayern etc.). So it is not a good method for me no.
Come-on mate, that Ajax/Netherlands teams were the equivalent of Spain/Barça this century. We're talking about a team that had Krol and Neeskens with Rinnus Michels reinventing the football. You are attributing all this success solely to Cruijff when there are several external factors involved. You can say that Ajax/Netherlands was the best team in the world and yet Cruijff was the best player just like Messi at Barça and Ronaldo at Real Madrid or Puskás at Honved, Pelé at Santos and Di Stefano at Real Madrid. What you are saying is the equivalent of me saying the following: Real Madrid were weak in the ELO rating before Ronaldo arrived. They hadn't made it past the round of 16 of the Champions League for 6 seasons. Then Cristiano arrived and won 4 Champions Leagues. Completely ignoring the arrival of players like Bale, Benzema, Modrić, coach Ancelotti, etc...
It isn't more impressive. Elo Ratings measures points gained compared to other opponent teams so it is weighted, Cruyff's trajectory with Ajax and Barcelona (that time he was on the pitch compared to being off the pitch) between 1965 and 1978 (time he was world class) was more impactful than Cristiano Ronaldo trajectory in his world class level (between ~2006 and ~2019) even without consider that especially Real Madrid really invested in a lot of premier, Ballon d'Or level level talents such as Kaka, Benzema, Xabi Alonso, Di Maria, Ozil, Modric, Kroos, Bale and so on, so that's a bump on Madrid status and also without consider Elo inflation. We can make the averages here and see the difference if you want. So it isn't more impressive at all. Prime Cruyff was GOAT (or near GOAT) level. Cristiano Ronaldo, at least a level below (maybe two, if you change his ambience to be more of a floor than a ceiling raiser... i.e where you need a playmaker). I think it is reasonable to think in that way.
The argument you're using doesn't only fits to Ronaldo but also to Pelé, Messi, etc... I mean, Messi played his prime with the Spanish golden generation. Most players of Spain 08-12 were Barça players from la masia. On that timeframe Messi has 0 goals at wc10 and copa 11. Pelé had the luck of playing at the same time with the best Santos and the best Brazil of all times with players like Zito, Gylmar, Didi, Djalma Santos, Nilton Santos, Capita, Garrincha, etc... All goat tier contenders for their positions. Also you're making Ajax like they were a poor team when they won 3 UCLs in a row and Cruijff singlehandedly carried them to this three peat and a wc final lol this is a very dishonest take. The só called "laranja mecânica" here in Brazil scared all teams in the world including Bayern/West Germany (see the first leg in SF of UCL 92/93 and how they completely dominated a team with prime Beckenbauer, Breitner, Maier and Müller. You don't have how to make all this only about Cruijff)
You punishing Cruyff to play for his hometown team and leading them to the maximum sucess three times (almost four) while in his prime should be your lowest point in the forum.... only imagine if Cristiano did that with his juvenile team Sporting Lisbon; The problem with Cristiano is precisely your type of comment, Cristiano Ronaldo being better than Cruyff is taken for granted for his fans (when it is likely the opposite and maybe the GAP isn't so small to make this a fair comparison) and he is often compared to another superior players such as Messi and Pelé as well. That makes him overrated (and Maradona - who didn't sustained greatness in a closer analysis). In other words, if Cristiano Ronaldo is said to be a GOAT, then he is overrated. I think it is reasonable to think that way, agree? Maybe even super overrated, we can make a argument about this if we want.
The two faced tropeiro To understand these blatant contradictions you have to first attempt to understand the psychology of tropeiro This is a poster who will literally say anything and who will literally employ ANY argument against any player if that player is directly pitted against one of his Brazilian idols If Zico is pitted against Platini you will see his true colours come out Then there is the fake admiration of Eusebio. Please don’t make me post it because it will only get more humiliating then it already is If Pele is seriously pitted against Cruyff and he even hints a change of public opinion on this forum(going in favour of Cruyff) you will see him trash Cruyff more than anyone has ever dared to on this forum. Since I am leading the one singlehandedly leading the onslaught against Ronaldo Nazario his number 2 Brazilian footballer of all time And cristiano Ronaldo is my preferred player Now he is throwing in my direction videos made YouTubers in a feeble attempt at gaslighting If you compare enough players to Cristiano you will eventually end up forgetting the topic of discussion That Ronaldo the Portuguese is vastly superior to Ronaldo the Brazilian This is happens when you regurgitate arguments that I completely busted, refuted and you were made to backtrack on every single point even including your best ever argument the one about goals+assists vs teams with only 150 Elo points difference or less Even though that argument produced by yourself is firmly in favour for my preferred player(even above Lionel Messi)i completely flipped it on you. I flipped it on you because I dislike disingenuous people more than I like Cristiano Ronaldo. Do you what happened? When I applied the 150 Elo points method to the World Cup careers of Pele and Ronaldo Nazario you have never typed 150 Elo points even once again(in several years now and counting) Try me more and I will destroy you even more here
People are evolving, you also was putting Il Fenomena in some TOP10 OAT list in the past and now you are bashing him and I have been pretty consistent putting Messi and Cruyff ahead of Cristiano Ronaldo for more than a year if not basically always. I also said Maradona had less chance to be better than Messi than Eusebio to be better than Cristiano. Thats my position regarding Eusebio. I also make a point of R9's prime being better than Cristiano's prime, but his carrer isn't and ultimately R9 isn't rated higher then Cristiano at all, period. Fact tho he was improving his teams in his short prime and playing very well for Brazil too alongside being a talent worth of Ballon d'Or at the age of 20. That can't be denied by a common. Now, some/many people here rates Cristiano Ronaldo even lower than I do (I even fancy CR7's carrer to be TOP4 OAT - his highest position to me - which is pretty high since I value prime over longevity); I just think if Cristiano is in the GOAT conversation, he is overrated, period. Am I crazy, delusional, irrational, unreasonable, mentally ill, perverted and full of envy and hate for that? I don't think so. I think it is a pretty sustainable position to be honest. I just don't take you personally. You know my positions. PD: also I did the 150 thing in the past regarding Brazilian players, I think I even shared it in this forum. Pelé was the first by a large difference (which is expected), R9 pretty consistent at T2 (G+A+PW) .... gap .... and Neymar, Romário and Zico basically tied with 0.6 per 90 or something. So you know I did that.
this is the get out of jail free card for disingenuous people Blame it on the “evolution” Every caged thief and liar has evolved and changed Let’s get to the crux of this We’re not talking about a ranking with 10 different names And I have never put Ronaldo Nazario in a top 10 all time list(how many times can you lie in one paragraph?) What we are talking about is well thought out reasons for why one player is superior to another. OK? Unless you want to admit here that you type without thinking in which case nobody should even think about what you are typing. As for what is in lower font form Are you talking Elo points of teams faced by Peles In campeonato paulista the bulk of his career games Dont involve me in supposedly knowing what is a blatant lie They don’t exist for him and they don’t exist for Zico(the league games in Brazil) What exists is the ELO points for teams faced by Pele and R9 in world cups and copa America tournaments and according to your own method(not mine) they are the biggest frauds ever
Let me correct you. Imagine if Cristiano had in the same generation as him a Portuguese Modrić and Marcelo playing with him for Sporting and for Portugal with Mourinho coaching Portugal. Edit: Why don't you address to the points I made?
i'm a friend .. of Peter Gabriel (Ballon D'ors Thread ) and PuckVanHeel ...(Gullit Thread ) ! so come on ... i know them !
Why are you too agressive facing the truth that Cristiano Ronaldo is actually overrated? That's why Cristiano is often placed in thread like this (and even winning the poll lol). Cristiano's fans are loud, but thats all.
What you or I imagine doesn't really matter at all. What matters is what actually happened. And what happened was that Cristiano won 5 Champions Leagues, all as the most standout player. Which is definitely better than winning 3 as the most standout player. Post peak Cristiano won 3 in a row. Your argument that he played for his homegrown club doesn't apply here because Ajax/Netherlands were the best club/NT in the world from 70 to 74. It's like me saying what Xavi did is more impressive cause he won with his homegrown club ignoring completely that Guardiola's Barça is a contender for best club team in history.