Another serie lying with numbers. Raul was a non-factor in the crucial matches and was stat padding against minnors. R9 (or the lack of) costed Real's the title that season.
yes is question to respect each other here bringing it back . with concret arguments ...true numbers .. etc ..! Peaceful ... Respectfully
The fact that OP decided to pick his players for the poll is ridiculous. How do we get to express and vote OUR opinion when he has pre-decidds who is "overrated". Why is Cristiano there and not Messi? Clownery
To label Cristiano Ronaldo overrated is a testament to the audacity of ignorance. The man is a statistical anomaly, a goal-scoring automaton who has redefined the parameters of human athleticism. His impact extends far beyond mere numbers, inspiring generations with his relentless pursuit of excellence. To deny his greatness is akin to denying the sun its brilliance. The evidence is irrefutable. The world has witnessed his dominance. Ronaldo is not merely a player; he is a phenomenon. To question his legacy is to question the very essence of football itself.
The irony here is that he scored that Raul actually scored the crucial goals https://www.transfermarkt.co.uk/rau...L&pos=&minute=&pos=&torart=&stand=gamewinning that allowed R9 to statpad against inferior teams https://www.transfermarkt.co.uk/ron...L&pos=&minute=&pos=&torart=&stand=gamewinning This is what you call the mother of all ironies
Cristiano is underrated not overrated And the highest order of a sportsman and genius. He is also a technical and physical marvel. And beyond that a great inspiration to the youth
yes ... i've spoken this before .... I put David Beckham ... Frank Lampard .... Steven Gerrard ... `Paul Scholes ....Rio Ferdinand .... JOhn Terry .... Soul Campbell .. A. Cole ... never i would to put C. Ronaldo as a overrated player never never never ... C. Ronaldo is a underrated player too much as Gerd Muller ... Ferenc Puskas .... Sandor Kocsis .... Ruud Gullit .... Patrick Vieira .... Kopa ..... Eusebio ... George Weah... Gento !
Cristiano Ronaldo is more of a victim of merciless scrutiny than being undervalued. People recognize his overall value, but like to dissect and discuss select aspects of his play more. The level of scrutiny being applied to him in terms of dribbling, for example, the main asset of his contemporary rival, has been ridiculously thorough, and even if many of the points gathered through this process has been valid, I wonder if any other legend of the game had this level of scrutiny placed upon him. Plenty of legends, especially those lost in time, might be more underrated, but Cristiano Ronaldo might be one of the very few legends pitted up versus an endless list of players who might be superior to him in terms of dribbling or on-the-ball majesty, having to prove his statistical and eye-test superiority to the doubters. It's something I've noticed in the point-allocating algorithms also. Where players such as Adama Traore can place extremely high on the algorithm-assigned ratings, compared to his overall effectiveness as a player. The value of dribbling, and the level of statistical scrutiny placed on it, has increased massively. Ronaldo Nazario having completed 169 current OPTA definition dribbles (something nobody but peak Lionel Messi managed in available OPTA records) in one domestic season seems unlikely to me, although a figure that is even 60% of the initial tally would be a mighty impressive figure. I personally would guess a figure that goes beyond two dribbles per match, but I would be astonished if he actually did manage 169 dribbles, not that I think lowly of his toolkits as a player.
This obsession over a company's tallying is getting downright embarrassing. At some point, people here need to recognize that Opta/SofaScore/Whoscored is not football, but a commercial product. Nothing more. Nothing less. Actions in football are not discrete univariable 0s and 1s and cannot be reduced to what a company that has monopoly on the market considers most marketable to gullible fans. Mentioning 169 "OPTA dribbles" like it's some sort of trophy is nerdy as hell and so off the mark.
Alfredo Di stefano called him a phenomenon And I am quoting him verbatim https://www.football-espana.net/2013/11/26/di-stefano-ronaldo-a-phenomenon/amp
....... honestly ... i don't need Opta/SofaScore/Whoscored Ratings honestly i prefer doing my own job and watching the whole matches ...with attention Who's gonna pay attention to your dreams " it's yourself or all by myself " lazy people ... like SoFaScore for example ...! honestly ... i don't see ...anymore Opta/SofaScore/Whoscored Ratings ! it is bullshit !
We have the advantage of back-seating the flawed nature of the algorithms. I certainly wouldn't be able to come up with a superior algorithm that correctly assesses all players to greater satisfaction on the spot, given the necessary data-sets. Further more, these sites provide some of the most openly available data-sets that mere human memory cannot contain. I can't even remember the number of fouls drawn in games I've watched intently from three months ago. Statistics provide a universal set of terminologies that simplifies use of the language requires to share ideas about the game. Sometimes, people can build more complex ideas from those data-sets. I certainly learned a lot from the statistics. If people lying with statistics to win arguments is the side-effect, I'm taking that trade every single time. People are going to lie anyways. With the data or without. If the 169 OPTA dribble count is true, we can then look into the deeper context behind it. I just have this fear that it might just be a product of a more liberal tallying from somebody who admires Ronaldo Nazario.
Football is not composed of a finite amount of discrete elements. Worse, the elements which are identified as discrete are a very small part of the totality of the set of actions that take place in a match. Worse, they are aggregated in sets of ridiculously great heterogeneity that fundamentally obviates their application in common discourse. Ex: a pass back to the keeper is tabulated in the same dataset as a cross to the striker in the box. A dribble irrespective of positioning on the field, context, oppositional structure is merely a dribble. The most nefarious consequence is the notion that Volume is the representation of Quality. This could not be more wrong. Football is a sport based on producing the right actions at the right moments and this is entirely lost in translation. For further illustration, Player X runs at high velocity, bypasses a defender while the defensive shape of the opposing team is in disarray, and produces a pass that leads to a goal. Player Z receives the ball on a standstill. Bypasses a defender while the defensive shape of the opposing team is set and organized, then bypasses another defender while the defensive shape remains more or less organized. There is a failure of taking into account quality and applicability. Worse, we are resting our analysis on a COMPANY that's modus operandi is to market to teenagers to generate PROFIT.
Measurements of actions are always valuable. The problem is that the measurements is that what we have is too limited to describe the sport fully, not that we need less of it. It is a positive step, and with each passing year, people get better at using it and recognizing what it fails to capture. People attempting to breakdown the limitations about OPTA data-sets, or having a more nuanced opinion about it, are somewhat enabled by the original data-set. Nobody recording the names of the goal-scorers, started it, with the intention of thinking all goals were of precisely of equal value no matter what the situation. However, I am extremely glad that they did record those data-sets. Who thinks it's a good idea to erase all those records because some idiots cannot find the proper nuance within those overall goal tallies? Tell me with all honesty. If you had the option of having access to all the OPTA criteria data-sets of Ronaldo Nazario, prior to this debate about his dribbling ability, wouldn't you take it gladly, and mention it as you colour the data-set with your own personal opinions? If you are worried about the potential false narratives these companies can create, I cannot help you. If that is the case, I also should be pulling my hair out in frustration every time a famous television figure, or media forcefully pushes through a narrative that I personally disagree with. As long as I'm figuring things out, at least these companies offer valuation information that my memory simply cannot recreate, and let's not pretend we have the time to re-watch all the games.
I am not worried about anything. The interest to access the data is merely because modern online discourse is centered on it. Otherwise - a resounding no! I would not have the interest, as beyond being deleterious, I think the information does not reflect TRUTH on a plain rational and philosophical scale. "Measurements of actions are always valuable. " This is false if the operational definition is lacking. Garbage data in, garbage data out. Fundamentally unscientific position to hold.
With the utmost respect mate, I disagree on all these points, and I guess you agree I'm entitled to do so. He's an example of extreme petulance, and an alleged rapist. Many players have been better technically and he's nothing new exactly from a physical perspective (Eusebio that has been mentioned was already an outstanding athletic player back in the 60s). Not a genius - he has occasional moments of invention and audacity that is true with backheel goals or overhead kicks, but he was much more a relentless shooter than a playmaker. I've dealt with my objections to highest order of sportsman and inspiration to youth already. No hard feeling to you, and I'm replying to you because I think it's best if me and Isaias no longer interact. We are so far apart in what we think of CR7 (as you can tell I don't like him as a player, and I genuinely do think it's over-rating his abilities when he's put up with the best of the game and again I'm entitled to that perspective I guess? - he hero worships him, although likes to make claims about greatness for modern Real Madrid players in general who were all team-mates when he had his glory; Marcelo, Kroos, Casemiro, and doesn't care whether he is a rapist or not). On dribbling and being fouled, the Ronaldo vs Deportivo away 96/97 game that Tropeiro included in his analysis is perhaps a good example, because the tally of dribbles he included didn't have several instances where Ronaldo had gone past a player only to be brought down or impeded (which is probably indeed how Opta does it too I guess), in effect he'd already registered a dribble if not for the foul (and near the end it has an attempt for a great solo goal that is stopped by a non-called foul too I would say by the way - a bit like the example @William Felipe Gracek put on his channel on Youtube for Van Basten it's a 'might have been' moment I suppose albeit Van Basten did shoot wide after his own vaguely similar great control/invention followed by dribbling. (Not against a low-down team of course too - 1996–97 La Liga - Wikipedia) I know me and you are more on the same page re: Ronaldo Nazario anyway, judging by earlier in the thread. Also I appreciate your comment about getting on better and showing more humility for sure, and I always try to interact with people that way (I feel like I did let myself down in that respect on occasions, including in this thread and I hope I'm not doing again in this post - the extreme CR7 propaganda is hard to look at without responding to be honest, but I'm not having a go at you for your own views about that). I guess in a way though a thread with the title most over-rated player, with a shortlist of candidates on a poll, will always be divisive (I'm not trying to criticise @Neron Nuñez , just agreeing with your observations in that respect). I'll probably go back to my break now.
What I would say though is that I think Ronaldo Nazario wasn't one of the most efficient players, in terms of making the most, percentage wise, of scoring opportunities, many which owed partly or fully to his own play and/or attributes of course though. And I would concede that C.Ronaldo had a wider array of finishing, and eventually (not comparing young winger to prime R9 I don't think though - where the dribbling numbers perhaps would be comparable - again I don't think counting numbers tells everything though) more off-the-ball expertise in terms of goal scoring and positioning (not forgetting he played mainly in matches where his team could have a lot of attempts at goal and a lot of the ball in the opposition 3rd etc though, in the more and more unbalanced modern game that developed - people who say his was often on an underdog Portugal team in big games should think of this other side too, even if to some extent Ronaldo Nazario had this with Barcelona himself it might be fair to say). Albeit this table indicates Ronaldo Nazario having less shots per goal (that is largely because of where attempts were taken from, strategy of shooting a lot etc I would acknowledge): Ronaldo on X: "Conversion rate in the league (25+ goals) Lionel Messi Ronaldo Nazario Cristiano Ronaldo Luis Suarez https://t.co/A9EyK82bZo" / X There is some more good info on that account - on the subject of Premier League creators (that I veered onto with the Big Chances Created data since 2010/11) this Premier League assist ratio table matches what I'd worked out myself pretty much I think (I'm not making a point about CR7 not being there as I guess nobody expects he would be anyway) Ronaldo on X: "Players with the highest Assist p90 in the Premier League: De Bruyne - 0.50 Bergkamp - 0.38 Fàbregas - 0.38 Éric Cantona - 0.37 David Silva - 0.35 David Beckham - 0.33 Mesut Özil - 0.32 Ryan Giggs - 0.31 Thierry Henry - 0.31 Christian Eriksen - 0.30 https://t.co/euTTK6Gpyu" / X NPG+A data per 90 minutes apparently too (not forgetting that Haaland also has large amounts of BCM as I alluded to before) Ronaldo on X: "Players with the highest NPG+A p90 in the Premier League: Erling Haaland - 1.09 Thierry Henry - 0.95 Agüero - 0.93 Luis Suárez - 0.87 Salah - 0.86 Ole Gunnar - 0.82 Robin van Persie - 0.81 Didier Drogba - 0.79 De Bruyne - 0.79 Edin Dzeko - 0.77 https://t.co/vF7xTkDrwV" / X Also the correct Opta CL total assists data (as opposed to the wrong StatsBomb/Uefa! lists that have been published at times) - correcting for ratio and games played etc is useful obviously though: Ronaldo on X: "https://t.co/vnItgh4xmG" / X I do notice that the guy is very much a Messi fan now to be honest I should say though (not that I think he seems to have put any wrong data there, and not to assume that the R9 posts can't be trusted because they'll be deliberately wrong or anything like that). I would also say that if the truth is that C.Ronaldo is a better guy than I might perceive (only he can know that maybe) and if he wasn't even guilty (despite some kind of admission at one point seemingly?) of that alleged crime, that I'd in theory acknowledge that, and see him somewhat differently perhaps (albeit I never really liked the antics and way he celebrated some goals with extreme screams etc - that's not being a bad guy as such though, just not my taste for player behaviour on a pitch, and it might be argued or might not that that's not the best example of how to act when playing football). Peace everyone anyway, all the best. We probably all get over-stressed about football matters I guess! And we can all be vulnerable to feeling down or whatever, and if we get too angry on here it won't really help a lot I suppose!