i think lehman is better than kahn dont you believe look at confedration cup. what is your idea. lehman>kahn
I tend to agree. Although its a tough task to compare goalkeepers who dont play in the same league.I dont have a clue how Lehman is doing over in England. In the NT he seems to be better. And thats what matters in the end.
Even though some people debate that Lehman is better at the moment, I think Kahn would eventually end up doing better in the actual World Cup....experience, leadership ,etc.
Agree. However, before he left the Bundesliga, Lehmann was kicking Kahn's ass at least as far as "kicker" was concerned.
Yea I know....perhaps the WC will be different....who knows...I have confidence in him. Euro 2004 wasn't all Kahn though.
Quote: Originally Posted by footyfan1 A lot of good that did Germany in Euro 2004......... Never said it was, but his blundering played it's part.....
Lehmann is average at best for Arsenal. They've been looking at replacements for him almost since he got to England. Kahn's best days seem behind him and Lehmann isn't a world class keeper imho. I think the best hope is for Hildebrand to continue to develop at a high rate over the next 12 months...I think the potential is there for him to be one of the top 5 in the world.
No Germany keeper is "World Class". Also, IMHO, Hildebrand is severely overrated. He doesn't suck, but he's also not the best young German keeper either. If you listen to the press, you'd believe that, but it's being proven that Hildebrand's gaudy numbers of two seasons ago were more a product of the Stuttgart defense than any "greatness" on Hildebrand's part. If the Germany goalkeeping situation actually remains "fair", I don't think Timo Hildebrand will ever be a true Germany #1. There are too many actually better than he is. Enke, Wiese and Weidenfeller just to name three....... Weidenfeller was rated the top keeper in the Bundesliga last season by "Kicker" magazine. But, if the "powers that be" at the DFB take control back from Klinsmann, Hildebrand will be Germany #1. Why? Because "Bild" will demand it. Doubly so if Hildebrand moves to Bayern to replace Kahn after this coming season........
I don't think that the german press demand Hildebrand. They rather want a new Kahn-hype like in 2002, that brought much more attention, including stories about his private life etc. I think Kahn is clearly better and has the better character, there is no way that Lehmann will play in 2006. The fans don't like him, the press doesn't like him either and he struggles at Arsenal. Klinsmann just tries to create some competiton by rotating the keepers, but that's nothing serious in my opinion. And Hildebrand won't come to Bayern in 2006, I assure you. It's either Kahn stays for two more years or Rensing will become the no1. Hildebrand only will become a candidate if Rensing isn't good enough.
The german goalkeeper situation is an interesting one and there are many facets to it. It's true that Kicker rated Lehmann's performances higher than Kahn's in the season before he joined Arsenal -- although both were still rated in the same category. Kahn was perhaps the best goalkeeper in the world from 1998 to 2002. He was certainly the highest rated one during this period -- being voted Goalkeeper of the Year in 1998 for the first time, followed by a 2. place and two more first places. But after the WC his performances began to decline until he had his worst rated half season since 1993 in 2004. Though, interestingly, he was also the best rated Goalkeeper of Euro 2004 by Kicker. So I don't know how much Kahn should be blamed for EURO 2004. Anyway, the reasons for Kahn's decline are not entirely clear. Some argue it's simply his age finally catching up to him whereas others claim that Kahn's private escapades were to blame. The later point of view would seem to be strengthened by the fact that Kahn has turned around his horrible -- by his standards -- first half of the 2004/2005 season and has performed strongly in the second half, supposedly after he has sorted out his private situation and is concentrating on his job again. In my personal opinion Kahn's private problems may well have significantly contributed to his declining performances, but he is still deluding himself if he truly thinks he is still as good as he was during the 98-02 period. The Confed Cup can be taken to underline this point. Kahn wasn't actually at fault for any of the goals IMO but a World Class goalkeeper -- which he was once upon a time -- would have saved some of the goals against Australia. So, why isn't Lehmann the German No. 1? Well, while it's probably fair to say that Lehmann has performed better over the last three years he has also struggled in his two years at Arsenal. In the first season he had the best record of all goalkkeepers in England, but he also made errors in important and high profile Champions League matches which completely ruined his standing in the cutthroat press and among many fans. In the second season Arsenal revealed a weakness at dead ball situations for which Lehmann was blamed by Wenger, and for which he was then dropped in favor of reserve goalkeeper Alumnia. Fortunately for Lehmann Alumnia was _terrible_ and Lehmann could win back his spot. If Wenger would have bought a better reserve goalkeeper who could have delivered solid perfomances Lehmann wouldn't be at Arsenal anymore and probably wouldn't have a chance to play in WC 2006. The next problem Lehmann faces is that Kahn simply has a better standing. Kahn was the tragic hero of the WC 2002, and the first goalkeeper who won the Golden Ball at the WC. Kahn was also voted goalkeeper of the year three times and voted in the Top Ten nine times in a row. Nobody has a better record. Moreover, it's almost tradition in the german national team _not_ to drop established goalkeepers when they are being challenged. Sometimes it works out for the good like in 1986 when Stein challenged Schumacher and the later would go on to play a very strong tournament -- with the exception of the final -- and being awarded the Silver Ball after Maradonna. At other times -- like in WC 1994 when Illgner was being challenged by newcomer Köpke and played an unlucky tournament, and in WC 1998 when Köpke was challenged by Kahn and played a rather weak tournament -- it didn't work out to retain the established No.1 when challenged by a younger goalkeeper. While Klinsmann has probably learned of these latest instances -- or he likely wouldn't have introduced the rotation in goal -- he will still have a hard time to drop Kahn when he plays at least solid next year before the WC. Lehmann probably has to perform significantly better to be given the starting spot in the WC. With regard to Hildbrand I would agree that he is a good keeper but that he is neither world class as of yet nor that he is even the, unquestioningly, best german keeper for the future. There are a lot of german keepers which may be at least as good or even better than Hildebrand.
Kahn is better than Lehmann, But they are both to old. Germany has always had the problem of starting keepers after their prime. I think Hildebrand and some of the other young guys should be getting a shot. But with that new german defence, I think they want a experenced keeper in net.
They had to put a German somewhere in the top ratings...... I think Kahn's problems came from not only the struggles in his private life (Which is exactly why I can't see why anyone says Kahn has more "character" than Lehmann, when Kahn is a moral scumbag), but also beating himself up over that first goal in the 2002 World Cup Final match against Brazil. I also think Kahn tried "too hard" to be that guy he was at WC 2002. He really thought he was "that good" when he had the tournament of a lifetime. Never mind that he was already arguably the best keeper in the world before that. While I agree that Kahn has come out of it some and has gotten back on his game some, I don't see where he's gotten much better, let alone anywhere near the guy he was between 1998-2002. I believe Kahn's "better numbers" are a result of having less to do with Bayern's acquisition of Lucio to strengthen their back line and better defensive play from their midfield this past season. I believe part of the problem was that Lehmann was at times also blamed for things that were actually the fault of the shortcomings of Arsenal's defense. You see that a bit more in the Premiership than you do the Bundesliga. Liverpool let three pretty good, international class goalkeepers (James, Friedel and Westerveld) go because Houllier didn't want to acknowledge the problems in defense. While true, it's also a BS reason for keeping a guy in the #1 position. It should go to the keeper in the best form going in, not to who has the most past laurels. I think this is why so many want Kahn to remain in place as Germany #1. They treat it as a position of royalty rather than the "earned" position it's supposed to be. Were it not for this, Lehmann would (and should) have been Germany #1 in 2003. BTW, from what I remember at WC 98, Koepke had already announced his international retirement for after the tourney and it was well-known that Kahn was taking over. I think Koepke had a crappy tourney because the entire team did. I think you are right on. Only difference in opinions being that I believe Klinsmann will put the most stock in how Kahn and Lehmann do in friendlies leading up to the tourney. Just like this past season, Kahn won't have that much to do with that damned good FC Bayern defense in front of him and I really don't know if Arsenal have taken steps to repair that broken defense they had last season.... There's going to be a big difference in the Kahn at FC Bayern and the Kahn on the German national team. The Germany defense just isn't as good as the FC Bayern defense...... I also think Klinsmann introduced the rotating keeper policy to show FC Bayern they no longer have total control over the workings of the national team. Agree totally. I named Enke, Wiese and Weidenfeller in my original response. I think I could also add Jentsch and Rost to that list. I think Klinsmann, if he stays on, will also look at these guys between WC 2006 and Euro 2008.
Lehmann made quite a few big mistakes that were clearly not the fault of the defense. He often looked dodgy during corners and crosses, amd sometimes went on a crazy run out of his box that cost Arsenal one or two Champions leaugue matches (only in one case there was also a defender to blame, can't remember who - Toure?). I actually think that Lehmann's good record during his first season in England was mostly due to the then excellent defence in front of him. Having said this, his performances for Germany have been great. I am just a bit worried that he'll make a big mistake in a very important match like he has done for Arsenal a couple of times.
Kahn merely had the best average grades, he wasn't actually _declared_ the top keeper of the tournament by Kicker. I seem to remember that Kahn played well in the first two games, in particular against Latvia. In the third game I didn't feel that he was at fault for one of the two goals though one might have hoped he would have been able to save at least one of them. Anyway, I don't really see that Kahn should be faulted for Euro 2004. He was one of the best German players along with Lahm and Ballack. No, the players who derserve blame were above all Hamann, but also Schneider, Frings, Bobic and Nowotny. It's difficult to determine which factors played all a part in Kahn's decline. We don't know him personally, after all. Though I would agree that it were probably several which prevented him from just doing his job as he had done before. As for Kahn being a "moral scumbag", well, he might well be, but let's not forget that it's widely said that Lehmann "stole" the wife of his own teammate Knut Reinhardt, so he is not somebody who really should make deragatory allusions to Kahn's love life. Anyway, I don't really think the private "character" of the players should play much of a role. It's their performances which should count. Agreed that Kahn is not as good as he once was, and also that his better goals to games ratio in the second half of last season had much to with Bayern's play as a team, but he also has a significantly better goal to shots ratio. Moreover, according to his grades by Kicker he only had one weak game in the second half compared to more than a handful in the first half. Agreed. It wasn't just Lehmann's fault. Their best central defender, Campbell, was injured and the rest of the defense was just not up to defending high balls without him. I would say it depends. If a keeper has played together with a defense for a long time and still performs solid or even well should be really be dropped for a keeper who happens to have a hot streak, and is slightly better in form? In such a case one could argue that superior experience and the dangers of unsettling the defense could well outweigh a slight edge in form. On the other hand, if both keepers are experienced and the defense is used to both a slight edge in form is more important. Kahn was still pretty good in 2003, though. Lehmann may have been slightly ahead but at this time it wouldn't have been justified to drop Kahn IMO. At this point Kahn may just have had a short loss of form after his outstanding WC and Lehmann had finally stabilized his sometimes uneven performances. Koepke was at the end of his international career and Kahn was considered to be the better goalkeeper at this time -- and moreso than Lehmann might be nowadays IIRC. Köpke was also already struggling at Marseille. While I can see why Vogts kept Koepke -- he was more experienced, he was used to the defense, and he was outstanding at Euro 96 -- I think Kahn probably had a better case than Lehmann had in 2003. Perhaps a far better case because Lehmann's career was too uneven to _expect_ at this point that he would continue to perform well. I don't agree that Koepke had to have a weak tournament because others played weak too. He was just not playing well. I don't disagree. Klinsmann will certainly compare their friendly performances foremost. Though I would also maintain that Kahn actually has to blunder or that Lehmann will have to play very, very well to justify dropping Kahn to the media. If both play about the same or if Lehmann is only slightly ahead of Kahn Klinsmann won't have a good reason to pick Lehmann and he will need one to avoid a negative press fallout which migth harm the whole atmosthere going into the WC. I don't think Bayern had total control in the first place. Influence, yes. Too much influence, perhaps. But not total control. I agree that Klinsmann -- and also Bierhoff -- don't much care about Bayern's media influence, though. But the more pressing question might not be if Bayern's influence is bad but if Klinsmann will actually stay objective when he has a dislike for Bayern. Who will play in the WC if Bayern demands Deisler and Klinsmann likes Schneider, for example.
After all this more general talk it might be useful to compare the strengths and weaknesses of Kahn and Lehmann. In my opinion Kahn makes more spectacular reflex saves than Lehmann, and he makes less mistakes with high balls and when coming out of his goal, perhaps because he is more cautious compared to the sometimes reckless seeming Lehmann. So Kahn has advantages when it comes to his reflexes and his command of the penalty area. Lehmann is much the better footballer and he seems to be in less _need_ to make spectacular saves because of his outstanding positioning. So Lehmann seems to have advantages when it comes to his distribution of the ball and the way he doesn't need many defenders to stay behind with him, as well as in his positioning. The area where Kahn has seemingly deteriorated the most might well be his mobility, while Lehmann was never the most mobile of goalkeepers in the first place IMO. So I would call a draw here. With regard to the last point I sometimes wonder if all this weight lifting and building of muscle mass goalkeepers extensively do nowadays might not be too damaging to their mobility even if the added mass and strength help them in other areas. I certainly don't see that it has helped Kahn all that much.
The thing is they are equally as old as dirt. BUT if I was to pick one keeper or the other right now, if they were both on and in top form I would have to give it to KAHN, but if Kahn is fatigued or something is bothering him I wouldn't mind having Lehmann as a keeper
Lehmann showed in the last time the better performance, but as they are quite equal. After the WC there must be a chance and the Bundestrainer must give new goalies a chance (Hildebrand, Wiese, Enke, Weidenfeller, maybe Rensing or Adler, if they get matches in Bundesliga and perhaps Rost, but he´s also very old)
A few words about Lehmann from an Arsenal fan. IMHO he is definetely not a world class goalkeeper. The problem I have with him is that his performance is extremely inconsistent. There are times where his form is extremely good and he played a big role in the matches (the Arsenal vs Man U FA cup final is the best example) but there are times where he makes mistakes which are just plain unforgivable. The Panathinaikos vs Arsenal match is a good example. The thing about Lehmann is that he is a bit...... well crazy. This is apparent when you see how he behaves in his matches. He loves to come out of his post and he has been punished for that on more than one occasion. There are times where his judgement is extremely questionable and he often almost give presents to the opponents (sometimes he just give them the presents). His shot stopping ability is extremely inconsistent; there are times where he couldn't stop anything. His ability to deal with crosses is also inconsistent. It is true that there are times where our defense has been horrible, but when we needed him to be the difference in matches he is more often than not missing. As you guys might know his performance in the first half was poor and he was benched for a while in place of a goalkeeper which is.. well crap. When he came back to the first team he became much better and at least started to contribute something. In fact, his form became very good during the closing stages of the season and he kept 10 clean sheets in 13 matches (although a certain young defender named Philippe Senderos helped him a lot). Still, he does perform much better for his country than he does for his club. And I do agree he is much better than overrated Kahn. However, once again I must mention that he is NOT a world-class goalkeeper and you guys should find someone better than him.
[QUOTE="Eisenfuß" Eilts]Lehmann showed in the last time the better performance, but as they are quite equal. After the WC there must be a chance and the Bundestrainer must give new goalies a chance (Hildebrand, Wiese, Enke, Weidenfeller, maybe Rensing or Adler, if they get matches in Bundesliga and perhaps Rost, but he´s also very old)[/QUOTE] Other keepers will get a chance after WC 2006. I just hope Klinsmann remains the coach. Otherwise, you'll have a person who goes back to the old standard of playing who the press tells them to in order to keep their job........
You can't find any "world-class" keepers if you don't have any. Not every country has a "world-class" keeper. I don't know what happened to Lehmann at Arsenal. He was a bit crazy at Dortmund too, but he was very consistent and in his final two seasons, I'd even venture to say "spectactular". We would have lost a hell of a lot more matches and would have never won the 2001-2002 Bundesliga title were it not for Jens Lehmann's performance in goal for us. As I told "Gregoriak", we had more problems with him getting sent off for lashing out than any mistakes he made in goal. And those even largely stopped in final two seasons with us. Well, except for that yellow card he got at Schalke for shoving a lazy teammate!!! (Marcio Amoroso) I don't get that. Oliver Kahn does that to one of his players and he's lauded as a great leader with a fiery passion. Jens Lehmann did it and he was called a hothead who had no business telling one of his field players what to do. Such is life in German football. No wonder Lehmann wanted to get the hell out of there......