Like AC Milan and Inter Milan in the group-stage? Come on, that's a weak response. Every team is going to get some good draws and some tough ones. And it is not like Messi is padding his goal-tally against poorer teams. A high share of his goals come in the knockout phase.
No, they played against Arsenal at March 31, where Ibrahimovic scored both goals. They played against Valencia at March 14, against Almeria at March 6. Between Valencia and Arsenal they played against Zaragoza (march 21) and Osasuna (march 24). Messi played in both matches.
Okay. Point is he was red hot during that stretch when some of the team wasn't playing well (Zlatan) or was injured (Iniesta). His streak included many big goals against top teams like Madrid, Arsenal and Valencia and several more against La Liga minnows.
It is not denied by anyone that Messi scores a lot of goals. That is not the point. But lets make a fair comparison and see how impressive his three topscorer-titles are. How does he compare against the other topscorers? (note that I only include the topscorers of each season). Obviously, if you play more matches in the Champions League, you score more goals isn't it? 1995/1996 - Jari Litmanen 9 goals in 10 matches (of a total 20 team-goals) Litmanen did not play in the away game against Dortmund 1996/1997 - Milinko Pantic 5 goals in 8 matches (of a total 15 team-goals) 1997/1998 - Alessandro Del Piero 10 goals in 10 games (of a total 22 team-goals) Del Piero did not play in the home game against ManUnited 1998/1999 - Andriy Shevchenko 8 goals in 10 matches (of a total 18 team-goals) Dwight Yorke 8 goals in 11 matches (of a total 29 team-goals) 1999/2000 - Mario Jardel 10 goals in 13 matches (of a total 19 team-goals) Rivaldo 10 goals in 14 matches (of a total 39 team-goals) Raul 10 goals in 15 matches (of a total 30 team-goals) 2000/2001 - Raul 7 goals in 12 matches (of a total 30 team-goals) 2001/2002 - Ruud Van Nistelrooij 10 goals in 14 matches (of a total 27 team-goals) 2002/2003 - Ruud Van Nistelrooij 12 goals in 9 matches (of a total 24 team-goals) 2003/2004 - Fernando Morientes 9 goals in 12 matches (of a total 19 team-goals) 2004/2005 - Ruud Van Nistelrooij 8 goals in 7 matches (of a total 14 team-goals) 2005/2006 - Andriy Shevchenko 9 goals in 12 matches (of a total 20 team-goals) 2006/2007 - Kaka 10 goals in 13 matches (of a total 20 team-goals) 2007/2008 - C. Ronaldo 8 goals in 11 matches (of a total 18 team-goals) 2008/2009 - Lionel Messi 9 goals in 12 matches (of a total 30 team-goals) 2009/2010 - Lionel Messi 8 goals in 11 matches (of a total 19 team-goals) 2010/2011 - Lionel Messi 12 goals in 13 matches (of a total 30 team-goals) Source: based on weltfussball.de Seen from this perspective, it is nothing spectacular. It is good, but his goals per game average is not better than many other topscorers. His share in the total team-goals tally is also not higher than others. Yes, he is for three consecutive times a topscorer but if you play more matches then the chances are higher you'll become one.
Messi walking around? Last season Messi had more fouls than any barca attacking player. Messi does not walk around when he doesn't have possession. And as has been explained before Messi has scored plenty with Barca WITHOUT one of Xavi or Iniesta playing. So this isn't some weird occasion. And he has scored without either of them. As you say it;s basically Barca. So these international players have the luxury of playing with the same people they play in game in and out. I can't recall any other NT that has this luxury. Of course they'll look amazing. And again the myth goes on. Yes let's compare Argentina, a team that hasn't been cohesive since 2006 to a team that has the same players playing with each other since 2006 for both club and country . The Messi couldn't score a goal in the WC means zero when he contribuited to more than 50% of his team's goals. But ok. You're completely discrediting him. It's not like other teams and players got A class teams since the beginning. And look at Messi's goal average past the group stage .
Take a look at Messi's overall goalscoring record/goal ratio in the CL and you will see that very few players are ahead of him, while he is ahead of everyone on your list since 95/96. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_European_Cup_and_UEFA_Champions_League_top_scorers His goal ratio of 0.69 places him 7th behind Muller, Puskas, Di Stefano, Papin, Van Basten and Eusebio, players who played 20 years ago at the earliest. Amongst goalscorers in the modern era, Messi's ratio is on par with Van Nistelrooy and better than other modern strikers. He is only 24 years old also!
Who cares of his goal per game average? Are you this desperate to grasp at straws? The fact is he scored more than every other person in the CL for 3 years in a row and right now he's at the top again with 6 tied with Gomez. That's the stat, trying to diminish something as impressive as that is sad. Just shows your intentions.
29 goals in 36 matches is not impressive?? Nobody else appears on that list 3 years in-a-row, that's what jumps out from that list to me. But thanks for letting us know that other players not named Messi once led this competition in scoring. Brilliant!! Messi is the 8th highest all-time goal scorer in Champions League despite only being 24 years old. He is closing in on guys like Shevchenko and Henry who played almost twice as many CL matches as Messi.
Come on thats not an excuse for him is it? if wilshere, a frickin teenager, can play well against them with limited supply the second best player in the world should also be able play well. The fact is Ronaldo's technical deficiencies always come to the fore against barca's quick pressing
Other teams don't have Ronaldo, and the last time I checked this thread was abt Messi and Ronaldo. Anyway I'll google to find out exactly how many goals each scored against the likes of Panathiakos, Milan, etc
First, you need to learn how to quote properly because this copy pasting is getting boring. But I bothered so here: Every player walks obviously . Messi walks but he also presses which is a fundamental part of Pep's system. Messi is a key part of the tiki-taka. I'll say it later.... Thats fine and all expect that both Xavi and Iniesta have been injured during periods of time. Especially Iniesta and Messi was still scoring and creating chanced for others. It should add to your belief because if Messi wasn't there Barca would not be scoring as much as they do and facts show this. When Messi is there Barca score a lot more than when he isn't. The same can not be said of when Xavi or Ineista aren't there. If you're certain Villa was scoring you clearly don't watch Barca because Villa was heavily critized for not producing as much as he should and in the last classico Pep benched Villa in favor of a starting Pedro-Messi-Sanchez. So Messi was playing goalkeeper? Messi was at fault for Romero and Otamendi failing massively early in the match? Household names mean zero when most of them are forwards and the defense is a joke. Maybe you should look at the whole team for a second. Actually no, it means a lot to the context of THE TEAM because it is a TEAM unless you don't understand what that means. Go google whatever you want. The facts are there.
Record of Barcelona without Messi: 16 wins, 4 draws, 4 losses, 43 goals for, 15 goals against In three of these losses (the loss against Wisla Krakow is the exception), neither Xavi or Iniesta was playing too (to be clear: both were absent). In one draw, neither Xavi or Iniesta was playing. Xavi did play in a further two draws, but not Iniesta. In the fourth draw did Xavi play, but Iniesta was a substitute (came on the pitch in the 66th minute). Those are the stats.
So what are you saying here, that Barca will lose or draw more often without Messi, Xavi and Iniesta? This is common sense.
What those stats say is that Barcelona also wins without Messi (see the group-game against Internazionale). Furthermore: they also score enough goals without him. Messi is their primary goalscorer as you know. But I've showed that in the Champions League his share in the total goal tally is not very high. Furthermore: when he is absent, the goals also fall out of the sky. An average goals made of 2 per game is good enough to be a title contender. I think many sides will struggle to produce two goals in a game without their main goalscorer. Let see what happens if Bayern must do it without Mario Gomez.
As promised I did some little googling to get some facts: Barca group games 1st game Barca 2 - Milan 2 (0 for Messi), Bate 0 - Barca 5 (2 goals for Messi), Barca 2 - Plzen 0 (0 goals Messi), Plzen 0 - Barca 4 (3 goals Messi), Milan 2 - Barca 3 (1 goal Messi), Barca 4 - Bate 0 (0 goals Messi DNP) So Messi scored 6 goals in 5 games, ironically 5 goals came against Plzen and BATE which supports my statement. And lets face it if you are not ManU this group should be a breeze but I'm waiting for counter argument. Madrid group games Dynamo Zagreb 0 - Madrid 1 (0 goals for Ronaldo), Madrid 3 - Ajax 0 ( 1 goal for CR), Madrid 4 - Lyon 0 (0 goals for CR), Lyon 0 - Madrid 2 (2 goals CR), Madrid 6 - Dinamo 2 (CR 0 goals DNP), and Ajax 0 - Madrid 3 (CR 0 goals DNP) All in all CR played 4 games and scored 3 goals during this campaign. Ohh and personally I see this group more challenging than that of Barca. Next is for last season.
You're being insanely selective and of course ignoring the assists and the mere presence Messi presents on the field and their opponents dealing with it. And you don't take into account the importance of big games of those title winning games. And you've yet to explain to me how Iniesta was out for periods during the treble winning season and yet Barca coped especially since Messi was scoring at a huge rate that makes any player blush.
Barcelona without Xavi 08/09,09/10,10/11 08/09 Cup Benidorm - Barcelona 0:1 (Iniesta and Messi were absent too) Atletico Madrid - Barcelona 1:3 Barcelona - Atletico Madrid 2:1 Barcelona - Mallorca 2:0 Competition Bilbao - Barcelona 0:1 (Messi was absent too) Mallorca - Barcelona 2:1 (Messi and Iniesta were absent too) Barcelona - Osasuna 0:1 (Messi and Iniesta were absent too) Champions League Barcelona - Shaktar Donetsk 2:3 (Messi and Iniesta absent too) 09/10 Cup CD Leonesa - Barcelona 0:2 (Messi and Iniesta were absent too) Competition Barcelona - Racing Santander 4:0 Zaragoza - Barcelona 2:4 Barcelona - Osasuna 2:0 Barcelona - Valladolid 4:0 Champions League Barcelona - Stuttgart 4:0 (note: Iniesta and Messi did play) 10/11 Supercopa Sevilla-Barcelona 3:1 (Iniesta was absent too) Copa Del Rey AD Cueta - Barcelona 0:2 (Messi and Iniesta were absent too) Barcelona - AD Cueta 5:1 (Iniesta was absent too) Almeria - Barcelona 0:3 (Iniesta and Messi absent) Competition Barcelona - Mallorca 1:1 Zaragoza - Barcelona 0:2 Deportivo - Barcelona 0:4 Mallorca - Barcelona 0:3 Villarreal - Barcelona 0:1 Barcelona - Deportivo 0:0 (Iniesta and Messi absent) Malaga - Barcelona 1:3 (Iniesta and Messi absent) Champions League Barcelona - Rubin Kazan 2:0 [SIZE=1](Iniesta absent) [SIZE=2]Balance (without Xavi): 20 wins, 2 draws, 4 losses, 59 goals for, 16 goals against [/SIZE] [/SIZE]
Of course the goals don't tell the complete picture but I now deal with the goals argument. If anyone is selective, it is you. Because if someone makes an argument about the combo Xavi-Iniesta and that this is not reflected in goals and assists stats, then you are dismissing that. Because it was you and others who came up with goal-scoring related arguments, I'll address that.
Furthermore, Xavi had as many big games as Messi. Take for example the two fixtures against Real Madrid in 09/10, where he was man of the match.
Anyhow, I saw a number of arguments passing by. Such as 'Barcelona also wins without Xavi' and 'OMFG, look at the goals'. So I figured it out. Yes, they win without Xavi and probably also without Iniesta but most of the times they win without Messi too. When they lose without Messi, they had also not Iniesta and Xavi at their disposal. Those are the facts. It is also a fact that Messi's share in the total goal production is not particularly high. In other words: yes, he scores a lot but the whole team is scoring an insane amount of goals. With or without him involved in the build-up play, with or without him on the pitch. That is a fact. And therefore C. Ronaldo is not much inferior to him.
3 years in a row with 10+ appearances in a year. Messi is currently in the top 120 players with most CL-appearences of all time. I bet there are not many strikers in the top 200 who made 10+ appearences in three consecutive years. Only Shevchenko reached the final two times in three year so that is the only justified comparison.
Messi has been extremely lucky with the lack of injuries since 2008. Most of the time when he's not playing it is just to rest him. Which is usually against weaker opposition. Or it is in a meaningless game in which case Barca are likely to also rest many other regulars. All this makes looking at Barca's record without Messi pointless.
This is not entirely true, he has been injured at times. And the same can also be said about Xavi. Of course it is not entirely pointless: the stand-ins are probably quite motivated to show themselves, especially when more players are rested. But the most interesting fact is of course the record without any of those three players in the team. That is rather bad.