"None of them". Personally speaking, I don't think any of them would make the first Arsenal XI. Even Joe Cole, who is an Arsenal supporter, being born in Islington, I don't think would fit our pattern of play. As for the rest, who is better than Henry, Bergkamp, Vieira, et al.? No one in my mind.
None of the above. I've had my fill of overrated young English players at Arsenal (Pennant, Jeffers, Wright, Upson, Stephen Effing Hughes) to last awhile, thanks. (Here's my problem with young English players: They're overly expensive. If they have any skill at all, they're pumped up to be the Next Big Thing, so they invariable start to believe it. They don't seem to be in especially good shape, and seem to be more injury prone than their counterparts, possibly because of their dietary habits? They seem to be in the manager's doghouse/police blotter in disproportionate numbers compared to their Continental counterparts - I'm guessing it has to do with the social culture they're raised with, where they go to pubs, get pissed, and cause trouble. Honestly, they seem to be more trouble than they're worth, with, of course, a few notable exceptions.) If you forced me, I'd probably go with Jermaine Defoe. And from what little I've seen/heard, Glen Johnson might be the best of the bunch.
I agree with Jeff and Dwinkler, forget about Hammers players. Dwinkler, there is one club who have consistantly brought UK players through their academy system with enormous success, and with not too many cases of them going off the rails! Would we turn our noses up at a young - Giggs, Beckham, Scholes, Butt, Brown, O'Shea and perhaps not in quite the same class, but, the Neville brothers have also been good value for money. I also fundamentally think that the lack of home grown/British players has been a factor in our downfall this year. Sorry, but, as well as being drunken pugilists we Brits are tougher and have more grit than the silky skilled continentals. This season we were too much velvet glove with not enough steal inside!
et tu, Marty? The myth of the ManUre youth system is one of the most irritating things that the ManUre-loving media have propagated throughout the years. Yes, they had a great class - years ago. Yes, that bunch has served them well - and is closer to 30 than 25 (and older, in some cases). But it took stealing Eric Cantona from Leeds to jump start the revival, and then it took the addition of Jaap Stam to get back on track in '99. Don't forget the contribution of Roy Keane - yes he's a nut, but he's been the heart and soul of that team for the past several years. And Van Nistelrooy has been their only consistent goal scorer the past two seasons. All players bought, not developed. So what have ManUre produced lately? Well, a lot of middling "talents" for lesser clubs, that's what. Hey look, there's Danny Higginbotham and his mates getting torched for 6. There's Jonathan Greening scrapping for mid-table mediocrity. Ronnie Wallwork's heading back down to the First Division, where he might or might not meet up with Luke Chadwick, formerly the Next Big Thing and now toiling at Reading. Wes Brown's injury prone, yet he's treated like the Second Coming. O'Shea looked excellent, but it's only one season. Blah to ManUre's youth system. Marty, let me ask you something about British steel: do you really mean British, or should you say English? Just wondering about this, because it's my experience that the English have little respect or tolerance for Scotland or Wales unless they're trying to make a point about teams that have "too many" foreign players, in which case they all become best friends and England becomes Britain. Look, I'd love to see an Arsenal starting XI all from Islington, but I doubt that'll happen in my lifetime. As far as steel and grit and all that stuff, maybe I've got it all wrong, but I just don't think it's that important. I mean, we had plenty of English grit and steel in our squad at Bolton, while they started 11 foreigners. And we know what happened there.
First, to address the topic: None of the above. A goalkeeper, maybe a defender, that's all I need. We've got plenty of talent in midfield so Carrick and Cole don't make sense. To jump in the Dwinkler/Martymarts debate, I too think the "English grit" is over-rated. I think there are plenty of Italians, Germans and Spaniards with grit as well. I don't think the English have any ownership on "grit".
None. As has been said above, none of them are better than we already have and also, they're all midfielders and forwards when what we really need is defenders and a goalkeeper. Now, I'm going to agree with Dwinkler about United's youth system, kind of. Ferguson was lucky that he had an outstanding crop of young players who all came through at the same time who were all good enough to go straight into what was a strong team anyway and more than make a name for themselves. Since the Beckham, Butt, Scholes, Nevilles generation not many have come through. Only Brown and O'Shea have made it into the first team with any kind of regularity. It's a bit like when George Graham came to Arsenal. Outstanding youngsters such as Adams, Merson, Thomas and Rocastle were just starting or ready to start their first team careers and the rest is history. That said, having O'Shea and Brown come through is one more than Wenger has brought through into the Arsenal first team in the same period. And I still maintain that Cole wouldn't have been in except for Silvinho's dodgy passport. The paucity of talent coming through at United is shown by the fact that Quniton Fortune has just been offered a new contract!
plenty of interesting arguments there. Personaly, I would opt for Jermaine Defoe (selling Jeffers to make way). He's a better 'fox in the box' and also, he's wanted by Manure. And the last thing we need is for them to have an ideal foil for Van Nistelrooy.
British grit Number of British starters yesterday - Bolton: 1 (Mike Whitlow, only starting due to Frenchman Florent Laville's suspension). Number of British starters yesterday - West Ham: 8.
No Dwinkler I really do mean British. I'd take a new Mark Hughes, an Ian Rush(both Welsh), a Kenny Dalgleish(Scots) or even an Alan Smith(English), either ours or Leeds's, over Sylvain Wiltord, a Gordon McQueen(Scots), a Tony Adams(English) or a David O'leary(Irish) over Pascal Cygan, a Craig Bellamy(Welsh), a Liam Brady(Irish), Peter Beardsley(English) or a Peter Reid(English) over Edu and a Paul Davis(English) over Gilberto! To deny the quality of ManUre's English players is absurd and you didn't answer my question! Would you really refuse any one of the players I listed? You certainly couldn't turn any of them down for being beer swilling unfit thugs! No academy system churns out super stars each and every time. Players who are a cut above are a rare commodity. That's obvious by the way clubs scower the world for talent. I don't believe that the British Isles have a monopoly on Grit, crikey big Pat has it in Spades, but, there is a reason why the EPL is considered to be the toughest league in the world and it's not because of the imports! Show me another team where the heart of the team is considered to be a foreigner? Bolton's team maybe foreign, but, the heart behind them is a lionheart; Sam Alladyce! True, foreign players brought a level of skill and fitness that was missing before, but they haven't brought European success. Only Spain has produced more CL winners than England (9 to Real 1 to Barca) and the English League is the only one to produce 4 different winners (Liverpool, Forest, ManUre and Villa). Yet in the 10 years of the EPL there has only been 1 CL success, ManUre in 99. No English club with a predominantly foreign squad has won the CL and I think Arsenal are the only ones to have won the league! I know you prefer analysis over opinion Dwinkler, but, the fact is the stats don't support your faith in foreign players. Funnily enough I think the weather may have something to do with it! It would be interesting to check the stats of clubs like Arsenal and Chelsea, because since AW took charge I've noticed that we seem to produce worse results during the winter than we do in fall and spring. Perhaps British Grit is the ability to cope with the crappy weather? Don't get me wrong I would take how we play now over "Boring, Boring Arsenal" any day, but, I still think we failed this time out because Henry's Le flair was not balanced by Adams' spit and saw dust!!!
Certainly don't want to turn this into a fight, especially with another Arsenal fan, so I'll just address a couple of points then be done with it. Most of them have turned out to be excellent pros. But when they were young, I don't know if I could have given them playing time in the current Arsenal squad. I don't know much about the history of ManUre, so I don't know who those youngsters replaced to get playing time. My guess is that they hadn't replaced recent double winners, or two-time (possibly three-time) FA Cup champs. Roy Keane is the heart of ManUre (Ireland isn't part of Britain, is it?) Before Keane it was Denis Irwin, or Peter Schmeichel. Gianfranco Zola is the heart of Chelsea. Sami Hyppia is the heart of Liverpool - if not him then Didi Hamman. Damien Duff is the heart of Blackburn - if not him then Brad Friedel. Sp*rs have no heart, but if they did it might be Gus Poyet. The man most responsible for their current heartless condition is Englishman Glenn Hoddle. On that fateful night in 1999, United started 6 foreigners (including Denis Irwin). And the only reason Nicky Butt was on the pitch is because he replaced the suspended Roy Keane; otherwise, it would have been 7 foreigners starting. By the way, the winning goal was scored by Norwegian Ole Gunnar Solskjaer, who had been subbed in for Englishman Andy Cole. For the record, the full ManUre lineup: Peter Schmeichel; Gary Neville, Jaap Stam, Ronny Johnsen, Denis Irwin, David Beckham, Nicky Butt, Jesper Blomqvist (Teddy Sheringham - 67), Ryan Giggs, Andy Cole (Ole Gunnar Solskjaer - 81), Dwight Yorke. I can accept the first four, but mentioning the overrated thug in the same sentence as World Cup winner Sylvain Wiltord makes my head hurt.
As opposed to trolls like Laddi and Loon, I have considerable respect for your knowledge and views. I hope this is healthy debate rather than "a fight"? Being born in London to Irish parents I am well aware that it would be anathema to call Ireland part of Britain let alone the British Isles. Perhaps I should have said United Kingdom or Britain and Ireland. Either way I think counting Irish players as foreign is not strictly cricket old boy. Correct me if I'm wrong, but when the league imposed the rule of a 2 foreign player maximum, it did not apply to Welsh, Scottish or Irish players. Seeing as they had all been playing for English clubs for years it would have been a bit silly? Even if I defer it doesn't change the fact that the arrival of unlimited imports has not enhanced success on the continent. Premature then to put all the eggs in Le panier, Der Korb, La cesta, or even Il cestino?
I agree, to a point, that Arsenal needs to have a little more grit and toughness, which I think you find more in British players. Tony Adams, in an article in The Guardian, stated that he used to love having to protect a one-goal lead, as it was his time to shine. I don't think Arsenal have enough players like that on the team, guys who thrive on the pressure of knowing the game (and the season) is on the line. The only ones I can really think of off the top of my head who do that regularly are Vieira, Parlour, Campbell, Keown, and Seaman. Out of those, only Vieira is from outside the UK. Others used to, like Pires, but, for the most part had serious breakdowns during the season. However, that's not to say that Arsenal should go with an all-British side. I think the foreign players bring an element of creativity to the pitch that the British players, quite frankly, can't match. Remember: three of the top five goal-scorers this season were born outside the UK. Henry simply is unmatched in his brilliance by any British player. Even an Alan Shearer can't do what Henry does on a regular basis, particularly in the passing department. Even in midfield there's a need for the more creative foreign player. As gritty and tough as Parlour is, his passing leaves much to be desired. That's where having a Pires or an Edu really pays off. Suddenly, you go from only having your forwards able to set up goals to now having a wide range of possibilities around the penalty area. So, in short, both Dan and Marty are right to an extent. Arsenal does miss the grit that comes with British players, but they do enjoy having the creativity of the foreign players. I think they need to add a British defender, like a Tony Adams, but they don't need to start selling off foreign players immediately just to add grit. They just need a little injection of it, especially at the back.
I think there are two separate issues here to discuss. One, did Arsenal lack "grit" this year? For the sake of this discussion, let's say yes. Two, do English/British/UK players have that quality to a greater extent than their continental counterparts. To that I say no. I'm afraid I won't be able to back up my argument with a lot of specfic names, but wouldn't you all agree that Hierro from Real Madrid has grit? What about Paolo Maldini? I gotta believe the defenders who got that crappy German side to the World Cup final had grit. You bet your a-s-s that the Valencia defenders have grit. The fact is that Wenger's foreign purchases, for the most part (Wiltord, Pires, Henry, Kanu, Ljungberg, GvB, Edu) just haven't been of that type. Now, that being said here is my firm belief: We're going to see to players really step up in 2003-2004 who are going to show that "grit." One is Gilberto. Here's a guy who played a full Brazilian domestic schedule (and those of you who follow the game know how insane that can be), then followed it up with the World Cup. He ran out of gas this season. But with a lighter summer I think he will be ready next year. The other is Cygan. I think this guy is much better than we saw this year. Give him an off-season to work with Sol and they could be good partners. Plus, Cygan is going to be pushing hard this year to impress so he can make the French national side for Euro 2004. I don't think Arsenal lack "gritty" players, I think those players had off years and I also believe that Wenger is going to put an emphasis on defense as a team concept this summer. Add this all up and I think you'll see a tighter team next year.
I completely agree with this sentiment. AW has been the salvation of Arsenal football and I don't ever want to go back to George Graham's 'Steak on a Friday' football. But, Dwinkler dismissed young British players as more or less all unfit drunken louts; more of a liability than an asset. I think that, perhaps tongue in cheek, he was over stating the case a smidgeon. It's a shame that Pennant is such a bad advert in this context? I agree that British players are often over priced, Beckham being case in point, the press do put pressure on young talent that they wouldn't face elsewhere, miracle if Rooney survives it all and we do have more than our fair share of pissed houligans, and I'm sorry to say that that is a cultutral thing that seems to be getting worse not better; and Dwinkler does say that it would be great if it were possible to fill the team with lads from North London! All I'm saying is that homegrown players (and I include Irish players in this) have qualities that shouldn't be overlooked. We have players who can make the hardest things look simple and are inspiring to watch. At the same time they can drive you mad with frustration when you can see that the shortest distance between two points is a straight line! Sometimes we are guilty of over elaboration and need balancing with steady workman like players like Parlour, Adams and Keown; only ones who can pass the ball better!!!
But I think there's a different kind of grit from the British playersthat fits the EPL style. As we've all seen in CL, most of the non-EPL sides play a counter-attacking style, where they lay back, wait for you to make a mistake, then try and score on a counter. Even Ajax, which used to play the most flowing football in Europe, employed this style against Arsenal. All of the grit is focused primarily in the area between the midfield line and the team's endline. In the EPL, it's much more attack-oriented, and the grit is needed between the opposition's penalty area and your own endline. You have a lot more possession and a lot more setup. That means players have to play more of the field and need to show that grit in a much bigger area. They can't just sit back and conserve themselves. They have to use their grit to set things up and possess the ball as well. That's not to say that the guys Rick mentioned couldn't play that style, but I think the style they paly and the type of grit they need is different.
Yeah, I'm watching it now. Course, there's a difference between "grit" and "violent". Four yellow cards already in this one, and there probably could've been a couple more too for that skirmish just before halftime.
After watching that game, which was boring for roughly 80 minutes, I think I'm even more comfortable in saying that I prefer the Premiership to Serie A. Not that I often agree with Tommy Smyth, but he did make the point after the game that Inter might have considered having at least some attack before AC Milan scored. But, again, as I said before, that's the trend with a lot of the non-English and non-Real Madrid teams in the Champions' League: sit back and wait for your opportunity. It's like watching Ducks/Wild on grass.