I'd darely like to see Juventus win this time around in an effort to exorcise the demons of the 2003 Final defeat at the hands of fellow Italian rivals AC Milan. As someone stated in one of the earlier posts ans as most foootball fans know, the Champions League has been something of a bete noir for the Bianconeri. Had they won the three Finals they have contested since 1997, they would arguably be considered to be the European club of the decade. Everything is in place for La Vecchia Signora to secure that ever-elusive third European Cup -- a manager with a winning record to die for, a first rate goalkeeper on his way back to his very best, a miserly defence, an influential goalscoring midfielder, and strikers who make the most of opponents' mistakes. I would loathe another fall at the final hurdle.
with the help of drugs?I wouldn't be very happy if I were to win under such circumstances.............
Before you start slinging the mud, just remember that in Spain, Real Madrid are perceived to be the Establishment's team. While I have never heard of Los Merengues administering drugs to their players, they have a reputation of often benefitting from contentious refereeing decisions, much like their uber-successful Italian counterparts. I don't condone the use of drugs in sport, but I doubt that Juve will ever be stripped of the titles they won during that golden period. Unfortunately for those who feel aggrieved by the Old Lady's antics, in football as in other areas of human endeavor, your name, reputation, and clout can at times see you exonerated of what is conventionally perceived to be disgraceful behavior. The furore began when, in the summer of 1998, the eccentric Czech manager Zdenek Zeman -- a man who has achieved little of note in his career --attributed the sudden, unexpected bulkening up of players like Alessandro Del Piero and Gianluca Vialli to performance-enhancing substances. I suppose football's little people are susceptible to flying into jealous rages when they find the path to the summit of footballing achievement blocked by all-powerful elites. In many ways, Zeman's accusations were a convenient means of projecting his inadequacies onto an institution well-versed in the practice of carrying all before them. Unfortunately for Juventus, this is one stain on their illustrious history they can probably do without. Still, this is confirmation of Albert Einstein's eloquent dictum concerning great spirits' encountering violent opposition from mediocre minds.
I'd like to say FC Porto again this year but they just haven't been very consistent... my best guess is that Chelsea has all the tools to take it including the right Skipper in Mourinho!
Slinging mud? not me! it is a very FAT FACT that Juventus benefitted from the use of illegal substances during a time that it saw unbelievable success both at home and in Europe(by their standards). Why is it that they have not been able to reproduce that same type of feats in later years? Either you're a casuist or you are not man enough to admit that what your team did was not only dishounourable but downright illegal.The conviction of the club doctor Riccardo Agricola,a fitting testimony to an era of ignominy that you Juventus fans conveniently want to pass as glorious!This guy was found guilty of supplying performance-enhancing drugs to the players between 1994 and 1998:you know the story very well and everytime one brings this up, your kind stand up and dismiss it as old old news. However, what I find exasperating is YOU Juventus fans having the temerity to brazenly cite that scandal infested era as GOLDEN...what nonsense!how could anyone worth his salt stoop that low? Zeman, whatever his failings has been VINDICATED! HE HAS BEEN PROVEN RIGHT! and Juventus has NOT carried all before them! It has won the Scudetto a record (domestic) 27 times but the Europen Cup/CL only twice... THIS IS NOT CARRYING ALL BEFORE ANYBODY! Real have won La Liga 37 times and the European Cup/CL a record 9 times!THIS IS A LOT CLOSER TO CARRYING ALL BEFORE EVERYONE!
Before I start, yes I am a Juventus man and yes nandrolon and creatine were used at Juventus FC in the nineties. But what club did not use that stuff in those days? It was only towards the end of the nineties that people started paying attention to it and started to think about doping in football. Other sports as well have been using stuff all the time to enhance performances. But you can(t say that Juve won those trophies just because of some muscle enhancing drugs. They were the best team at the time as well. The funny thing actually is when players moved from different clubs in Holland, Spain, etc over to Serie A in the late nineties they tested positive on arrival (Davids, Stam, ....) So at the time drugs were being used by everyone not just Juve. And although wrong, it did not bring them a competitive edge if everybody else was using it. So that team was and still is a golden era team to us.
According to the BBC, Davids tested positive for nandrolone in March 2001. I think he left Milan for Juve in 1997 or 1998. I find it quite clear that there is far more indication for drug use at Juve than anywhere else. Having said this, it's of course not just the doping that made them so successful.
Excuse me if I upset you, but even though Juventus have won the European Cup only twice, they and AC Milan are one of the main reasons that the Champions League is second in importance to only the World Cup in terms of popularity and prestige. Real Madrid, for all their wonderfulness, went 32 years before securing that elusive seventh Cup (la septima). I recall former Barcelona supremo Joan Gaspart stating in the run-up to his side's semi-final showdown with Real Madrid in 2001-02 that Los Merengues' five consecutive European triumphs should be put into perspective given that in those days, more often than not, the opposition may have been a little star-struck; Real Madrid's honorary president Alfredo Di Stefano was alleged to have rebuffed this as utter nonsense. It is also worth noting that in the heady days of the late 50's to early 60's, the tactics employed by most sides were not as rigid as those used in contemporary European football. I wouldn't be quite wrong in suggesting that, during its formative stages, the European Cup may have lacked some credibility. You just don't see teams winning that many trophies in succession anymore. In fact, the last team to have won the European Cup/Champions League two times in a row was AC Milan, in 1989 and 1990. Not even the overhyped galacticos have managed this. Oh, and by the way, your beloved Real Madrid have been crowned Spanish champions only 29 times!
Thats an understatement! Back in the 50's, outrageous high-scoring games was a common place. Check out some of these first round games: Season 1956 - 1957: Agg.1st2ndMan. United3-4Dortmund 3-20-2CSKA Sofia 10-4Dinamo Bucuresti8-12-3Rangers (ag) 3-3Nice2-11-2Slovan1-2Grasshoppers 1-00-2Real Madrid5-5Rapid (ag) 4-21-3Rapid3-6Crvena Zvezda 3-40-2Fiorentina 2-1Norrköping1-11-0Athletic4-5Honvéd 3-21-3Real Madrid 4-3Rapid2-02-3 Season 1957 - 1958: Agg.1st2ndAntwerp2-5Real Madrid 1-21-3Norrköping3-4Crvena Zvezda 2-21-2Aue1-4Ajax 1-30-1Young Boys2-3Vasas 1-11-2Man. United 3-1Príbram3-00-1Sevilla 4-2AGF4-00-2Dortmund5-5Steaua (ag) 4-21-3Rangers1-6Milan 1-40-2 1: source: www.uefa.com I mean honestly! When's the last time you've seen a Champions League match end 5-5? I don't think its happened in 40 years. I know it was only the fifties, but this is clear evidence of some primitive football to say the least. Not to mention the European Cup was in its primordial stages; ergo the handful of teams participating. A perfect contrast could be Major League Baseball. I mean did anyone stop to think that maybe the reason the Yankee's won the pennant soo many times was more because of the meagre competition and not some monopolistic dynasty? And don't forget Babe Ruth's unforgettable batting average; but then again its not that hard to hit baseball when its only being pitched at 50 mph?
remember this statement in june; lyon will win it, or get to the final. if lyon don't win it the winner will be arsenal.
if werder bremen make it to the quarter finals, i think they have a good chance of getting to the final, and who knows, maybe a german team will pull it off this year.
And how did you exactly make it popular? you seem to downgrade Real's contribution to making this cup popular, what ever that means, inspite of the fact that we actually won this latter version 3 times, more than your Juventus ever could the cup since its inception including the old version. Gaspart is a clown and he will always remain one.... It is quite obvious that any competition that took place in earlier times would have been inferior tactically to what we have today coz the game has evolved over time, but that should not devalue the tourneys as all teams then were playing at the same level. The game will be a totally different cattle of fish 30 years from now tactics wise for an example, would you dismiss the quality of the current game 30 years hence? Your opinion, this is a free world.... My mistake....I think in the zeal to let myself be heard, I got a little overboard, perhaps due to the fact that I wrote at supersonic speed too. But this was an attempt to butress the point that Real would be a better example of the team that "CARRIED ALL BEFORE EVERYONE" rather than underachieving Juventus. And believe me there was NEVER any golden era for Juventus in European Cup terms or CL terms....
My best guess is Barcelona, but you have so many prospects it's really hard to say. Almost every team from the last 16 can win it.
First off, I'd like to say that in the early to late 90's, all teams around Europe wanted to emulate Italian football. I know that the Anglo-Saxons among us don't care much for their cynical approach to the game, but at the end of the day, winning is all that matters and that's good enough for me. During Manchester United's run to the 1999 Champions League Final, I recall Sir Alex Ferguson saying that he really got a feel for the Red Devil's capabilities by examining the quality of their performances versus Inter Milan and Juventus, two Italain sides, en route to winning the title. Indeed, in those days, Serie A was and can still arguably be considered the benchmark by which all pretenders to European domination had to be judged. Teams across the Continent borrowed so much from Italian teams in terms of tactics and preparation that, as result, the playing field of European football has levelled off spectacularly. The case can also be made that before Fabio Capello's arrival at the Bernabeu in 1996-97, Los Merengues were foundering in mediocrity. He stamped his authority on the side and perhaps laid the foundation for the success they garnered at European level in the ensuing half-decade. There is no way I would ever dismiss the quality of the Champions League in 30 years' time. UEFA's decision to scrap the second group phase last season was a financial and competitive boon for Europe's lesser lights; every game now takes on greater meaning. The new format ensures that teams have to bring their A-game right from the start. It has generated more interest in the competition. The alternative could have been the introduction of an elite super league for the aristocrats, which may yet happen. The big boys may have been blindsided last year, but don't bet on them taking anything for granted again. European football is being democratized. The transfer market's relative lack of buoyancy now means that second-tier outfits like Lyon, Monaco, and FC Porto can acquire the sort of players who three or four years ago would have plumped for Italian or Spanish clubs. The likelihood of the game's giants trouncing the opposition with mind-numbing regularity has been reduced dramatically. The likes of Real Madrid and Juventus cannot simply rely on their reputation and mass appeal to win games anymore. I think FC Porto and Monaco made this point rather eloquently last season. With regards to Juventus never having a golden period in the European Cup/Champions League, I will say that although they've lost too many Finals in they eyes of their tifosi, they've done a lot to give the competition its romantic, mythical aura. As for your insistence on labelling the Italians a bunch of cheats, I will remind you that drugs alone can never win you trophies. Some sections of the Italian media have declared Juve's doping case inconclusive. However, it has given you the perfect rod with which to beat the back of Italian football. In your zeal and zest to justify your xenophobia, you are disregarding tactical organization, preparation, world-class players, an urbane coach, and sheer will-to-win. When one takes into consideration that Real Madrid were General Franco's favorites during his fascist regime, your accusations are a case of the pot calling the kettle black. Successful teams draw adulation and antipathy in equal measures. I'm not begrudging Real Madrid their first five European Cups. What's done is done. I'm merely pointing out that in light of the tournament's infancy and the laissez-faire attitude in regards to tactics, those triumphs have to be put into perspective.
How exactly.....I would say Milan perhaps during the Gullit era. This is one of the teams that had what might be termed a golden period, Juventus is not among them and you're not known for any romantic, mythical ANYTHING. That is anathema to the philosophy your beloved Juventus subscribe to...WINNING AT ALL COST. But you have to admit that DRUGS can substantially influence results and place those that are into them at an advantage over the clean ones.Why then would they be illegal if they were not performance enhancing. . Since when have the media become arbiters on matters judicial? The media are just spectators when we come to issues such as these and their opinions DO NOT count for much...they are as good as anybody else's... XENOPHOBIA....where have you detected anything of the sort? Please do not be presumptuous and stop making conclusions about me.My intervention was intended to give prominence to a plain FACT, that you seemed to skim over - DRUG USE BY JUVENTUS. And what did Franco's alleged association with Real have anything to do with their success? Pure conjencture! What exactly are you insinuating? THis is a contradiction in terms how could you say that you do not begrudge Real their early success and at the same time make reference to remarks such as Gaspart's below?what is the motivation?what is the import of quoting this maverick if it is not to belittle Real's early cup triumphs.And what DI Stefano's retort tell you? You talk about perspective, what perspective? there can only be one persepective that matters....that REAL MADRID was all class[still is] when they won the European Cup an unprecedented 5 times in a row against quality opposition then, the playing field was level and they beat their opponents plain and square.There is no other perspective. Lastly, I think this is my last take on the subject as I do not think I will ever agree with you on a few substantive points.But at least you have been a decent debater unlike some on these boards that are given to dismissive ephithets.
I am by no means a Juve fan. But I do take offence to the comments re Drug use. If anyone honestly thinks that this only happend a Juve, then I must say your heads are so far up your rear ends their is no hope for you. Face it doping is rampent and the Spanish and ENglish and germans and all major powers are doing it. They are just better cheaters than the Italians. I dont condone it but its just the facts.
you're a funnny little creature and the best thing is to leave you alone.why the insults? you mean you can't put your point across without lacing your pathetic language with invective? don't get too used to that....people may not take you too seriously next time...
I am glad that you appreciate my debating skills. I've got to confess that I do enjoy a good fight. The main reason I joined bigsoccer.com ten months ago in the first place was to have rational arguments on the finer points of the beautiful game. Our on-going logomachia is the first I have had since becoming a member. And like you stated, many of the posters on this site are susceptible to incoherent ranting. Ad hominem attacks get you nowhere and I try to rise above such small-mindedness. There are a few things I wish to elaborate on, however. There is plenty of evidence to suggest that during General Franco's reign, Real Madrid enjoyed all sorts of privileges. I am not making a moral judgment by stating this, merely articulating a fact. I am not going to take the moral high ground because Juventus themselves have a reputation of wielding perhaps too much influence in Italian football's corridors of power (you might think this constitutes an understatement). At the end of the day, success enshrouds powerful clubs with an aura of high-handedness that sees them exonerated of what might be conventionally viewed as reprehensible behavior. Whether or not we want to admit it, varying shades of corruption still exists in European football. Don't tell me that those who gleefully point out Juve's doping scandal don't have skeletons in their closets. I forget his name, but some eminent French philosopher/statesman was once credited to have said that one cannot rule without having blood on his hands. So with this in mind, we will call this a draw. Curiously enough, Real Mardid and Juventus have drawn each other in the first knock-out round of the Champions League. It is a pity that we have to meet so early in the tournament; one team's European ambitions are going to end prematurely. May the best team win! Who knows, we might really get to bond in the forthcoming weeks.