Which stars are built to last?

Discussion in 'Movies, TV and Music' started by Ghost, Jul 9, 2005.

  1. royalstilton

    royalstilton Member

    Aug 2, 2004
    SoCal
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    ---
    did you have to work on that? a bit baffling to me how you could develop such animus against someone who is at the very least a competent actor. what has he been really BAD in? since LA Confidential, anyway

    Cinderella Man (2005)
    Master and Commander: The Far Side of the World (2003)
    A Beautiful Mind (2001)
    Proof of Life (2000)
    Gladiator (2000)

    The Insider (1999)
    Mystery, Alaska (1999)
    Breaking Up (1997)
    Heaven's Burning (1997)
    L.A. Confidential (1997)
     
  2. Owen Gohl

    Owen Gohl Member

    Jun 21, 2000
    Haven't read the article but I assume what he's essentially talking about is the actor as icon.

    Maybe one way to look at it is to think in terms of whether people will want to see an actor's lesser films 50 years from now. Today people will watch almost any film Bogart made simply because Bogart was in it. The movie might not be very good but that doesn't matter; what matters is that it's a Bogart film.

    How many of today's younger actors (under 50) have that quality? Very few. Given that, it's unlikely very many of them are going to be remembered even 20 years from now.

    I'm also reminded of the line from "Sunset Blvd": "I am big. It's the pictures that got small." Well, they have. Hollywood will never be the dream factory of the 30s and 40s and it will never be able to produce iconic stars in the mold of Bogart, Cooper, Flynn, and Wayne. Eastwood comes closest; Cruise probably is the best of the under 50 set, though I prefer Crowe. Streep has a huge reputation, but it's more critical than popular.

    Speaking of Wayne, anyone interested in the idea of an actor as an icon should read Gary Wills' "John Wayne's America."

    Maybe the best way to achieve screen immortality is to die young, James Dean and Marilyn Monroe being the prime examples. Steve McQueen, whose career had burned out by the late 70s, is having a revival now primarily on the strength of his premature death.

    Of course today's box office doesn't always equate to tomorrow's legend. I have an old book that lists the top ten box office stars from the 30s to the mid-70s. Katharine Hepburn, who is nothing if not an icon, appears only once - in 1969, when she was over 60. I wonder what Julia Roberts and Sandra Bullock will be doing at that age?
     
  3. amerifolklegend

    amerifolklegend New Member

    Jul 21, 1999
    Oakley, America
    I hate a whole lot of actors that are considered very, very good actors.

    In fact, in the post of mine that you quoted that you took the time out of your day to respond to, I even said that you can't take his fame away from him. Can't get much clearer than that. I don't like Russell Crowe. I never said that you aren't allowed to think he's a great actor. In fact, my whole post, which you clearly neglected to quote, was me commenting on how because I can't stand him, I can't make a judgement on him because I am biased against him to start with. That was the point of the post.
     
  4. bojendyk

    bojendyk New Member

    Jan 4, 2002
    South Loop, Chicago
    I saw the first 30 or so minutes of A Beautiful Mind on HBO, and he was quite terrible in that. His protrayal of mental illness was closer to that seen in other movies, not in real life. Gena Rowlands he ain't.
     
  5. royalstilton

    royalstilton Member

    Aug 2, 2004
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    i think you said you can't take his fame away from him...

    or do we read differently?

    do you use the word "hate" because you can't think of a better word? is there some reason for your reaction to him? his hair? the fact that he's an Aussie? something about his left eye?
     
  6. amerifolklegend

    amerifolklegend New Member

    Jul 21, 1999
    Oakley, America
    I think he's a terrible actor that picks the same role to play over and over again. On top of that, I think he's an asshole. That's it. Those are my reasons. You don't have to agree with me. You clearly think he's a fine actor. Great. I'm not going to try to change your mind. i, for one, think he's awful.
     
  7. royalstilton

    royalstilton Member

    Aug 2, 2004
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    ---
    i didn't like A Beautiful Mind, since it depends on keeping the audience out of the loop as far as Nash's mental illness is concerned until pretty far into the film. i didn't know the history, and i felt tricked, as opposed to 6th Sense, where I was tricked, but it's a trompe d'oeil, so to speak.

    i don't think it's fair to characterize Crowe's acting as "terrible" when you don't know whether he was actually portraying Nash accurately.
     
  8. amerifolklegend

    amerifolklegend New Member

    Jul 21, 1999
    Oakley, America
    Great. Valid poiint. :)


    It doesn't at all change the fact that I think he's a horrible actor. Not one bit.
     
  9. bojendyk

    bojendyk New Member

    Jan 4, 2002
    South Loop, Chicago
    I disagree. Regardless of how talented they are or how much you like or hate them, it's hard to argue that Clint Eastwood, Tom Hanks, Tom Cruise, Bruce Willis, Julia Roberts, John Travolta, Nicholas Cage, Harrison Ford, Robert deNiro, Woody Allen, and Arnold Schwartzenegger are not iconic. For better or worse, they'll be remembered. Hollywood will never cease to be able to turn out stars. The question is whether "stars" are worth turning out.

    The men definitely fare better than the women, though.
     
  10. royalstilton

    royalstilton Member

    Aug 2, 2004
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    ---
    i was right. you had to work at it.

    and, BTW, i don't think i said Crowe is "a fine actor". what i said is that he's at the very least competent.
     
  11. amerifolklegend

    amerifolklegend New Member

    Jul 21, 1999
    Oakley, America
    That's great, too. You're entitled to that fine opinion. I'm sure Mr. Crowe is very happy that he has people like yourself out there to defend his honor.

    However, I still think he's a garbage actor. :)
     
  12. NoodlesMacintosh

    NoodlesMacintosh New Member

    Aug 24, 2004
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    Well, being in Bullitt, The Blob, and The Great Escape--some of their respective genre's best films--doesn't really hurt.
     
  13. NoodlesMacintosh

    NoodlesMacintosh New Member

    Aug 24, 2004
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    Reading this conversation reminds me of every time I've had to defend my stance of hating Edward Norton.
     
  14. Rafael Hernandez

    Rafael Hernandez Moderator
    Staff Member

    Mar 6, 2002
    Cate Blanchett is Australian.
     
  15. amerifolklegend

    amerifolklegend New Member

    Jul 21, 1999
    Oakley, America
    Really. So you don't like the guy. Who cares? Me thinking someone is the greatest actor of all time isn't gonna change your opinion on thematter. I don't get why people get so defensive about stuff like that. His opinion about the guy bing a capable actor or watever is just great. I'm not gonna tell him otherwise. If he likes Russell Crowe, then god love him. That makes seeing his movies a much much more enjoyable experience than I will ever know. So be it.
     
  16. Rafael Hernandez

    Rafael Hernandez Moderator
    Staff Member

    Mar 6, 2002
    Roger Ebert had an article a few years ago about this stuff with the case of Julia Roberts. He compared it with Mary Pickford and how Julia, like Pickford could be the greatest star of her time but fade out like Pickford did. I kind of agree with him. I think she is the most popular actress around but in the end she may only have box office hits and not memorable movies. She may have been great in Erin Brockovich, but the movies to me its pretty forgettable and not one of the greats and so is most of her work. I don't think she will last.

    It's kind of tough with actors to know because as opposed to the music world, where it is widely know that flavors come and go and that the most popular more than likely won't last, in the movie business it's not the case. Actress like Jodie Foster may get the props even if they don't film much but others have a one bomb after continous hits and then there is doubt about them.
     
  17. Owen Gohl

    Owen Gohl Member

    Jun 21, 2000
    Good comments. Some quick thoughts.

    Eastwood - Legitimate icon in two genres.

    Hanks - Respected as an actor but I can't see him as iconic. Somewhat like Streep in this regard.

    Willis - Outside of three Die-Hards (a fourth in pre-production) I don't think of him as an icon. Interesting career though.

    Roberts - An icon for the present but probably not for the future. Already went through a slump in the 90s and could be due for another as she's pushing 40, a dangerous age for any female star.

    Travolta - 70s icon (Grease, SNF). Willis really has had the bigger career.

    Cage - Less of an icon than Willis or Travolta. I don't find his work memorable.

    Ford - An icon through Star Wars but I prefer him in almost anything else to that. However most of his post-Lucas work would not elevate him to icon status.

    DeNiro - Mobster icon to the masses. Sometimes goes beyond that but can't escape being an extension of Scorcese. somewhat the way Wayne was an extension of Ford and Hawks (but Wayne moved beyond his mentors).

    Allen - Icon to the intellectuals. Less of an icon than most of the above but has his place on the shelf as America's nebish.

    Arnold - Polar opposite of Allen - the over developed body vs. the neurotic mind. Essentially a comic icon. Ironically, the one way he's like Allen.

    All of these people have made reputaitions over the last four decades but it's likely only half will be able to hold their status over the next 30-40 years.

    Just a side note on Steve McQueen. I always liked him but I don't think his stature would be as high as it is today had he lived. Another 20 years probably would have meant more films like "The Hunter" and his reputation would have suffered accordingly.
     
  18. Scarecrow

    Scarecrow Red Card

    Feb 13, 2004
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    I always thought Eddie Murphy could have been much more then he was.
    Jim Carrey could actually someday move into a higher status.

    I liked Holly Hunter and Richard Dreyfus, but I don't see either of them moving into the iconic status either.
     
  19. NoodlesMacintosh

    NoodlesMacintosh New Member

    Aug 24, 2004
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    With Carrey having shifted from big comedies to lesser-known but more widely-acclaimed films I'm not so sure. There's currently a big difference in numbers between fans of Dumb and Dumber and fans of The Truman Show.
     
  20. amerifolklegend

    amerifolklegend New Member

    Jul 21, 1999
    Oakley, America
    I don't want to say anything bad about Jim Carey, so let's just say in fifty years he'll be HUGE in france.


    They'll be saying, "Oui oui! Jerry who-is?"
     
  21. DoctorJones24

    DoctorJones24 Member

    Aug 26, 1999
    OH
    Ansen's premise is faulty to begin with. Actors have very little control over whether their films will last. Indeed, acting is the most overrated "art" there is. The people who will be remembered are the people who eitehr are great readers and choosers of scripts, or people who have hired brilliant agents who do this for them. Period.

    Put Tom Cruise or Tom Hanks in a movie with a crappy script, and they're going to be forgettable, too.

    Of course, this doesn't count for the scene-stealers like Nicholson who really is always only playing "Jack." In EVERY movie he's ever done.
     
  22. skipshady

    skipshady New Member

    Apr 26, 2001
    Orchard St, NYC
    And conversely, a mediocre actor is going to look pretty good with some good direction (see: Jennifer Lopez in Out of Sight).

    I agree with you for the most part though I still think there is a distinction to be made between great actors, good actors and bad actors. Keanu Reeves will never, ever be able to play the same roles that Sean Penn can since he either comes out looking flat or will overemote.
     
  23. amerifolklegend

    amerifolklegend New Member

    Jul 21, 1999
    Oakley, America
    See also, Sonja Henning.

    She was huge even long after her career was over. She's not now because there's no love for the ridiculous, over-the-top skiting/swimming extravaganza, but she's still well known. But the woman barely spoke a word of English, yet people thought she was the all-american girl.

    Y'know...untill she turned her back on her home country during World War II and caused everyone to hate her for ten years.

    But the woman had amazing people around her. She was the lead in three movies where she was onscreen more than anyone else, yet had the least speaking parts of all the major roles. People didn't notice because the writers and directors were so good.
     
  24. minorthreat

    minorthreat Member

    Jan 1, 2001
    NYC
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    See also: Samuel L. Jackson, Christopher Walken.
     
  25. skipshady

    skipshady New Member

    Apr 26, 2001
    Orchard St, NYC
    And I like Al Pacino when he's not playing that character from Scent of a Dog Scar's Advocate.
     

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