they sell because can't maintain top salaries, for that reason they lost their top talent. off course the top south american teams could play in equal conditions with most european sides, but in 60's-80's we are better than him, and have ours stars here. we constantly sell players because we have players from youth divisions, but the chance of a top player play in south america for money reasons is 0. he could play for others reasons.
I just can't see how a league that consistently sells and produces players can be considered in decline. Furthermore these teams always perform on par with the teams that are buying up our players in head to head competition. Are we basing this decline on economics or quality of play? If it's based on quality of play than I just can't see how the La Primera is considered in decline. The only reason Argentine clubs can't maintain top salaries is due to the television money that is poured into other countries leagues which enables them to spend more. Take the money out of Europe and it becomes a moot point. The point you make about players staying in South America for non-monetary reasons is actually more a testament of the league and it's teams than anything else. BOCA this term for example have purchased more top level players than they have sold. Riquelme, Castroman and Caceres for example all turned down more money to play in Argentina, why? Is it because they prefer crappier futbol?
If in the past they could produce and mantain the player and now they can't they are in decline. whe aren't talking about suppositions, we talking about the reality. and in the reality we lost players to europe, if these players stay in ours teams the teams will become better. if ours team are becoming worst we are in decline. some player like to stay near to her family, some players don't wanna to europe to be reserves or to play in mid of table teams, and some players only like to play in the team who they root. for example ronaldo would accept earn 50% of his salary to play in flamengo and become near to his family. there's nothing more than their love for flamengo and his family to he make his decision.
Now now, you can't take what I said literally as it was purely an example. But let's talk purely in a hypothetical. Before that let be sure I understand your reasoning for stating or agreeing that the Argentine league is in decline. The only thing I got was that because year in year out we are able to sell and then produce more talent, our league is in decline? If you were to base your opinion on observed play and provided an argument on those grounds then fine. But I've heard nothing along those lines. Speaking purely in the hypothetical and definitely not a view I hold, but if the EPL for example is a league ruled by a small group of top sides, wouldn't it stand to reason that the league has not improved or possibly declined because the likes of Bolton, Derby...et al will never have a chance at taking the league? Now if this based solely on a financial criteria, then that's a whole different argument. With that said, financially the Argentine is arguably on an up-swing. Clubs are going out and spending money unlike in recent years and furthermore players are going to Europe playing out a contract and then coming home. Tevez for example has stated he wants to play one more five year contract and then return to BOCA. I guess my question goes back to this; if not for financial reasons then why exactly is the Argentine league in decline?
When I think of maintaining, I'm think in the terms of producing talent consistently not finances. Honestly, are our sides getting worse? I can't speak for Brazil because personally I could care less about futbol Brasielero unless Libertadores or Sudamericana is involved. Keeping players is no guarantee of a team being better, look at Milan this year for example. Top to bottom a fabulous side but are they meeting expectations or competing for the leagues top spot? I'm not sure I completely understand your point here but I will agree that some players just want to be where they love. As you referenced Ronaldo, I could use Riquelme in the same vein. Look at the clubs he snubbed to play for BOCA?
Then fair enough, but again Futbol Argentino is acutally on an upswing in it's buying practices and the level of play is still skilled and exciting.
well, i don't think they will be better if they leave the top players. you use a falacious argument: "if a team could play bad with stars, then let sell ours stars and play well with average players". doesn't make sense. boca could be better with tevez? with pato? flamengo could be better with julio cesar? juan? ronaldo? são paulo could be better with breno? mineiro? lugano? luis fabiano? kaka? i say that some players stay where they love, and this is the only reason to a top player in a top of his career stay at a south american team, by now.
You can call it a flawed argument if you want but both sides of it are true. Any of those players you mentioned can return to the continent and likely light it up and make their teams better but then again as we've seen in sport too many times, said player could be injured, gets lazy or gets an attitude. Nothing is guaranteed. As far as players returning in their prime, Riquelme is the most recent example, he's got family, he loves Argentina and most importantly he loves his club. I've been around the world a few times in my day and for someone to want to return to BsAs, doesn't surprise me one bit. Of all the fantastic places I've been, nothing compares to BsAs especially during a Super Clasico at La Bombonera.
the point is that any player can be out for injuries etc, but only top players can decide a game and a league like kaka, tevez, ronaldo etc.
....but to say "only top players can decide a game and a league..." is also flawed. Sure their is a greater likelihood but again you can't always guarantee those things.
if you fall in absolute relativism you can't proove that i'm not better than pelé. if boca lose riquelme they will be worst, being injured ou being sold.
Ultimately it is to do with the rate at which you are losing your best talent but more importantly at the increasingly earlier age that it occurs. Generally speaking the younger a player is when he leaves the less developed he is and therefore the less quality he possesses at that point in time. He is then replaced by a younger player and the cycle repeats itself. What you find is the overall quality in the league slowing decreases through each cycle. In theory of course...
The amount of quality players that the Argentine league produces and brings in from other South American countries rivals that of the amount of players that leave so the quality of the league is not affected much imo. In fact there are alot of players currently playing in Argentina that I rate higher than some of the ones playing abroad. And with D'Allessandro close to joining San Lorenzo the list is about to increase. I'm thinking that alot of the people claiming here that the league has lost quality aren't avid followers. Imo the recent parity and variety of teams winning the title has made the league much more enjoyable.
true, i think where the problem is is not guys like coloccini and vagner love and their ilk, but guys like messi, robinho, ronaldinho, riquelme (when he was in europe), aguero, pato, tevez, kaka, alves, zanetti, etc. those really good guys are hard to replace like for like. they are the top of the bell curve so to speak and even the mass production assembly lines of argentina and brazil, can't replace that type of great talent at the top from within, at least fully. even guys like cambiasso and maicon (two fine and underrated players btw) would be really nice to have and some of the best youngsters like garay, gago, and banega, get poached even before they are ready. it makes it even more difficult. with that being said, i agree it is an enjoyable league to watch, and on the topic of d'allesandro, he always disappointed me, and i was really looking forward to he, diego milito, aimar, and oliveira, along with some of their other talent at zaragoza forming a dynamic attack, but it wasn't meant to be. hope he turns it back around in argentina. just my two cents anyways, whether you want to call it a decline or not, well, i won't go that far, granted, pretty much every league in europe barring the epl and la liga are declining or have declined in the past 10 years, so they wouldn't be alone.
Football's never been more popular in the Netherlands, both as a participation sport and as a spectator sport. Attendance records in the highest professional Dutch league have never been higher and will continue to increase as clubs keep on expanding stadium capacity. Add to that the fact the Dutch football association has never had more members and that womens football has grown in popularity in a spectacular fashion (it is now the second most popular participation sport amongst women). So it depends on what you believe being in decline is. The financial gap between the top professional leagues in Europe and the Dutch league has continued and will continue to widen, but the Dutch don't seem at all bothered by this. We love our football and we don't really care how it compares internationally. Above all we love to PLAY football. On that note, rather than focus on the same old boring argument about which professional league has the most money and is the most successful, and how much television revenues each generates, and how many people sit on their fat arse every weekend to watch the overhyped top leagues, it might be interesting to check where football is actually played the most, and to compare how many active, football association registered footballers each country has. I'll start you off. Holland: population 16 million, Dutch FA members almost 1.1 million (as according to the Dutch FA's most recent annul report unfortunately available only in dutch on http://www.knvb.nl/archief/organisatie/knvb.nl_organisatie_nieuws/knvb_weer_meer_leden
in short period of time there's no decline in brazil or argentina league, but if you compare with 70's and 80's we would be a fourth tier league.
Nothing compares to Serie A of the '90s. Maybe the Brazilian first division after the second world war but even thats being generous. The fact is in the 90's European football was Italy; if a player like Maradona plays for a nobody team like Napoli, thats saying something. Italy will likely never duplicate that kind of strength, at least not in our lifetimes. At the moment I'd say Serie A is in recovery which is a hell of a lot more than I can say for the leagues situation 5 years ago.
agreed, the 80s and 90s serie a was special. the league has definitely declined from that point, but in the last few years there have been some improvements i feel. so, i guess it just depends on your point of reference.