Hard for me to judge this, not living in England. Are English fans similar to US fans, when the team is winning you can never get a ticket and when they are garbage there are plenty of seats available. I have only visited London and wasn't into football back then on our honeymoon. Too bad, we stayed really close to Stamford Bridge and I didn't even know it until just recently.
Manchester United has consistently been among the top in attendance, even in the 70's and 80's when the team wasn't doing that well. The only time our attendance really dipped is when Old Trafford was either being rebuilt or renovated.
Yeah, but... doesn't that have to do with Old Trafford being the biggest stadium in England! Even on a non-soldout night Man Utd can outdraw another soldout club. Don't know if that has anything to do with it and also their worldwide popularity, many foreign fans in Old Trafford.
I know.. just thought I would mention it. I mean St. James is the closest in size 52,000 and it still doesn't come close to 69,000 at Old Trafford!
And as far as foreign fans go, yes, it does have an impact on attendance figures now. But that wouldn't have been the case during the lean years.
Ok, I believe you. Just thought the Yankee Factor was a huge part of it. Meaning just like all across the US, you see people wearing Yankee caps because of their constant winning and occassionally due to their great tradition. You know the old cheer for the hot or biggest club syndrome. I will put it to the test today at this high school where I tutor, there are a few students that wear Man Utd kits. I bet they don't know the starting cast or anything about their history or even the name of the stadium that they play in.....this should be interesting.
Re: Ok, I believe you. And how is that going to help you come to a conclusion about United fans that live in England then?
Difficult to answer and I think looking at numbers isn't really the way to look at it, I mean look at us I support albion and there have been fans going there now for years watching them play poorly in the first division and second and there have still been thousands going to watch obviously there were more this year as it was our first year back in the big time for 16/17 years, but you will get those types of fans at every club. I'm not saying we have the most loyal fans but one thing I will say is that at old trafford at the start of the season a few thousand of our fans out sung all of theirs and although we are destined to be relegated those same fans still go week in week out singing there hearts out even when we are losing now that too me is loyalty.
Yeah, the thread kinda turned into a highest attendance thing, I didn't intend to argue that that meant that United fans are the most loyal, just that even when we were relegated, our attendance didn't disappear. The local club support culture where soccer is predominant far outweighs most of the fans of our American sports - except maybe the Green Bay Packers, almost every other team experiences the bandwagon phenomena.
Just thought because everyone wants to cheer on the winning side. Arsenal has been dominating the Prem for the last few years, don't tell me that kids around the UK all HATE Arsenal. Well, you know what I mean.
Re: Just thought That Snivelling Wenger aside, at least most of their football isn't boring, like Liverpool's.
Re: Re: Just thought Okay wise guy. Even though your comments on this thread have been so very germane so far . . . To suggest that all teams in England experience bandwagon surges akin to ManU is ridiculous. They have consistantly sought bandwagon fans. They have certainly won lots of soccer, but they have not based their appeal on style of play - they have based it on a) winning - pretty or not b) developing/signing popular players and milking them for all it is worth c) commercializing the club to the extreme. ManU has courted bandwagon fans like no other franchise this side of the Dallas Cowboys. There are many other clubs that have cultivated fans far and wide based on style of play, mystique/legend, a "commitment to excellence" and/or other less commercialistic reasons. These are not the same as bandwagon fans. I would argue that the most impressive fans are those who fill up their stadiums and sing even when they have not one honors or had great success for many, many years. Newcastle and Sunderland come to mind. They have no particular reason to be popular, yet their fans remain faithful to them. As far as your slap against Liverpool. Who would you suggest are the most exciting teams to watch in the EPL? You have mentioned Arsenal and you obviously would pick ManU. But where do you go from there? Too much is made of Liverpool's style. It tends to be something that people just hear and repeat over and over again. As their many young players begin to mature (don't forget that many of their key offensive players are still in their early 20's, four - six years away from their primes) they will develop more flair. Steven Gerrard, Michael Owen, Danny Murphy, El-Hadji Diouf, John Arne Riise and Milan Baros are all capable of play with flair and creativity. Just wait until Le Tellec and Simana-Pongelet arrive and become established. Who knows, maybe even Bruno Cheyrou will settle in and prove that he is worthy of his status as a French full international. Robert Pires, Thierry Henry, Freddy Ljungberg and Patrick Viera didn't become the phenomenons that they are overnight. All are in their later 20s now and the maturity and creativity they bring to the table was not always perceptible in the past. Liverpool is currently not stylish (though on the whole, they have been a very stylish team throughout their history) but they still feature many exciting players and have had many exciting moments over the past few years. They have scored many, many goals over the past three seasons. They have played in many close games and they have won many games. Jamie Carragher is limited, but is he much more boring than Gary Neville? Didi Hamann is workmanlike, but is he much more boring than Nicky Butt? Just because Emile Heskey falls down a lot and Stephane Henchoz plays defense period does not mean that Liverpool is incapable of attractive play. Manchester United was not the most exciting team in the days prior to Cantona's arrival or even sense at times. Every team (except maybe Ajax) goes through times when their style is brilliant. Give Liverpool credit for trying earlier in the season. They just don't have the personnel to pull it off game-in and game-out yet. What is your answer for that, that Liverpool fans be disloyal and find an "exciting" team to cheer for? What are you going to if Beckham and Giggs leave? Who will be the stylish players then? Horse-face? Forlan? Quinton Fortune? Don't try and tell me that it won't take some sorting out at Manchester United even if they do sign some big-shot players like Damien Duff. After all, it has taken Mr. Creativity Juan Sebestian Veron more than a little time to sort himself out.
Re: Re: Re: Just thought Uh, no. I said that it's the American sports fans that are the bandwagoners. On the whole, the soccer-centric countries, (ie England, Spain, Italy, etc) experience a far higher rate for loyalty and support.
Re: Re: Re: Just thought So you enjoy watching "hoof it up to Owen and hope he scores" footy, then? You sound like Houllier "We are still a young team, etc." He's been saying that for 3 years now. How many corners are you going to turn this year alone? Um, no. I've heard enough of, "only the result matters" from you lot long enough. It's not enough for United to win, it has to be pretty as well. I guess it's just a different standard. I don't see selling both players as an option. United boast arguably the greatest midfield in England, maybe even Europe. (when healthy) You don't sell both sides, pillars if you will, of that formula.
Re: Re: Re: Just thought Pires is 30 (his birthday was about a month ago) but the other three are 25, 25 and 26 respectively. Not exactly pushing 30. Just FYI.
Re: Re: Re: Re: Just thought Not particularly, but I also believe there is more to come in future years. Owen in particular is building other fundamentals into his game and Gerrard, Murphy and Diouf all show flashes of brilliance and vision. I agree he sounds foolish sometimes - but he will have to say a lot more foolish things before he catches up to Sir Alex. But they are still young. Baros, Traore, Arne Riise, Gerrard, Owen and Diouf are all under the age of 23. Murphy and Heskey are not that much older. That is a young team. How many matches had Scholes, Beckham, Butt, Giggs et al played when they were the ages of Liverpools younger stars? You would be crazy to suggest that they do not have a lot of room for improvement. Houllier does not buy Jaap Stam, Rio Ferdinand, Juan Sebestion Veron, Van Nistelrooy . . . type players. For crying out loud, the entire Liverpool team cost less in transfer fees than any two of those players. Houllier buys younger players and develops them alongside the core players that came up through Liverpool's youth system. You should appreciate that more, because that is what Alex Ferguson did when he first came to ManUtd. Your team had years throughout the eighties that were very raw and ugly in terms of the product on the field. But Ferguson was given the time to develop the team and it paid off. I wish that Houllier had kept Litmanen and sold Smicer. There are things that he should have done differently and this season has seen its setbacks. But many of the setbacks this season have been the result of trying to introduce more flair and attacking shape into the team. Its not like Houllier is George Graham or something. He is after all, the architect of the youth system that produced so many of the marvelous and creative French players that fans are enjoying throughout the world. Where did I say that only the result matters? I just mentioned that Liverpool scores lots of goals (and Owen is not the only-goalscorer). Likely more in open-play then ManUtd this season, since we have all of four less than your team. Last season we scored more goals than your team. We had plenty of flair in the early-mid nineties, but the team got old and leaky. Liverpool historically has been synonomous with stylish play. You know very well that many of the most ardent Liverpool fans would like to see more style. But would you rather have a team like Tottenham or Newcastle that scores lots of goals and passes the ball well but never wins? Liverpool understands that they need to win and win in Europe to build a squad that can play stylishly. Just wait a year or two and you will see. If they sell Giggs - which looks likely - and Real Madrid comes calling with a lot of money, do you seriously think that the shareholders are going to say no? I doubt it. Beckham is one of the few players left who could justify the type of transfer fees that would interest even a ManUtd. And with his influential wife being part of the decision - you might not have a choice. Anyway, why the heck do you think Queiroz is there if it is not to attract young Portuguese talent. If it is not Queresma, it is probably one of the other Portuguese hotshots who are generally under-represented in the top leagues. Do you think that ManU's shareholders are going to want Beckham to play out a five year contract and never make any money on a transfer that could be of Zidane-esque proportions? He will be what, 33 when that contract ends? Don't count on it. Beckham's value has rarely (if ever) been higher and don't think the beancounters don't know it. The fact remains, stylish play is important at ManUtd. But business remains the preeminant concern.
Re: Re: Re: Re: Just thought True, but they were only beginning to come into their own when they were 20 - 22, as Gerrard, Diouf, Owen and Arne Riise are. I am not suggesting that they are old. Only that they have had a few years to mature and round into the players that they are today.
I remember being at Stamford bridge on a wet and cold dreary end of season game in 1983.We were at home to Rotherham and there were only about 8,000 or so of us at the home game.We were dire in that year and almost went down to the third division. The bad old days of financial ruin and the end result of the stupid decision to build a huge east stand. Did i think we had the most loyal fans...no, not really. It was never a question that was given any importence really.Not one that ever came up much either. Today as i live in the states i read on-line that peolpe are complaining that they can't get a ticket for the new 42,500 seater for the big games.....makes me laugh really. The most loyal fans? If there is such a thing they would be found cheering the away team in a third division match.
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Just thought Did it? Heskey 11mil, Diouf 11mil, Dudek 6mil, Kirkland 6 rising to 10, Riise 4, Cheyrou 4, Biscan 5,Henchoz 4, Hyppia 5, Hamman 8, Diao 5, Diomede 3. Thats 72 million alone, and there are others like Westerweld and Ziege who you lost money on. None of these are significant, but they add up. this has been Liverpools problem, too many average players. Anyway I would say Man City as they were getting 30,000 in the second division. I think Sunderland have shown their true colours this season, as fairweather fans.
Sunderland only got high attendences in the last couple of seasons is because they gave all the tickets they couldn't sell to the local school for free.
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Just thought . Anyway I would say Man City as they were getting 30,000 in the second division. I think Sunderland have shown their true colours this season, as fairweather fans. [/B][/QUOTE] I have to agree getting 30,000 for second division games is incredible. This shows a level of loyalty that 62,000 while leading the league (yes I mean you Man YOO bandwagoners) can never show. A friend related a story how in august 98 she went to Maccelesfield town versus Man City A second divison game early in the season when if I my memory serves me City was actually around mid table. The biggest crowd of the year for town and most of the crowd were city supporters. Thats Loyalty. Espcially at a time when their cross town rivals were dominating english football. How easy would it be for so many of the city fans to find a dark corner to change from blue to red and jump on the united bandwagon like so many teenage girls fainting over spice boy. I feel Liverpool fans are very loyal, but I am not sure how full anfield would be for a mid table second division game in august.