I somewhat disagree. Toronto is the one that will be getting a team first. That's a given. But would it be the best place or do they deserve it? I'd say no to both. Toronto is getting this team on the promise of potential and of a big time player in the sports biz (MLSE) Vancouver and Montreal have both done a better job in marketing to the community, putting infrastructure in place and putting bums in the seats. Blame the Hartrells, perhaps? I don't know. But I suppose we can also blame the pretty politics that are resulting in still no stadium announcement. I'm just hoping the MLS business structure does not turn off the Saputos and we see all three in MLS in five years or less.
It's not a given that Toronto is even getting a franchise unless/until there is a WYC 2007 stadium announcement. I'd like to be 100% confident on that but with each passing week.... Beyond that it's a case of the three pillars for expansion - Ownership, Stadium and Market. The word "deserve" based on anything that has happened in a USL context is scarcely even relevent.
Why is it not relevant. Are you saying that because a "professional" team in Toronto doesn't draw very well that it should be disregarded? You list the MLS model for a franchise (Ownership, Stadium and Market) As yet Toronto has none of these, only potential. I assume market to mean realistically potential soccer fans not six million (or however many souls) living near Toronto. Garber wants to hand them a franchise on a silver platter and Toronto keeps screwing it up. What's wrong up there? Montreal and Vancouver are the models for soccer in this country, Toronto just has a big population. I'm not going to argue about this because I've seen you and Johnnie Monster and Petersoccer argue this ad nauseum at another forum but just letting you know some other posters have some valid opinions and concerns.
All that matters to MLS is that a city in North America with a metropolitan area of 1.5 to 2 million minimum and preferably considerably more than that has an owner with deep pockets and access to a mid-sized stadium and its revenue streams to the extent that they can make money on crowds in the 10 to 15,000 range. Put all those pieces together and it's pretty much a case of write the cheque and you are in because there is no concern about the ability of MLS as an entertainment product to be able to sell itself in the largest North American media markets. That's a given as far as MLS HQ is concerned. The fact that Philadelphia and Houston have never been able to do much in a USL context means nada zip rien when it comes to MLS expansion. Those metropolitan areas, like Toronto, have over 5 million people so MLS would prefer to be there than in somewhere like Rochester which may have a better USL level record but only has about 1 million people within its metropolitan area and therefore has limited long term growth potential. It's time you made your mind up on this Toronto thing. In your last post you were talking as if Toronto is already in bar a few formalities and I replied to point out it's not in the bag yet until we finally get to listen to the long awaited stadium announcement. Now in this post you are trying to assert that none of Don Garber's three pillars for expansion are in place and that it's only potential.
There is a reason for MLS wanting Toronto. Toronto has everything needed for a great francise. You are off base in your comments, as usuall. Some others may have valid points and concerns, Joe you certinaly dont.
Blizzard just ignore Joe, he has nothing valid to add to anything other than create confussion. Look at the last few post on this thread. This guy is lost in space.
What's so difficult to understand, the pillars are potentially in place. Are MLSE there? I don't know. Is the stadium there? I don't know that either. At this point MLSE is as trustworthy as the Argos. You seem to have the answers, you tell us. I just wonder why Toronto is seemingly being gifted a franchise. If I was looking at it from an American viewpoint I don't think Toronto brings all that much to the table in comparision to an American team in a large American city, and there are still plenty of them. Not knocking Toronto, just can't understand the hype As a Canadian I want to see then get in but after looking at some of the import rules I'm wondering how beneficial it will be to development. Imports won't be sitting on the bench, they're going to play. How many Canadians are going to be seeing first team playing time? But at this point anything will be an improvement.
Joe, you have no Knowledge of the rules. Commenting on how many Canadians will be on the pitch is dumb. The rules will be the revers of what they arre for US teams. Thats pretty plain to see and understand. Do us all a favor and stop making comments that have no basis or backing in real fact. Toronto is not being gifted a team. They are going after a team and MLS feels they have what it takes. Its a shame all west of Ontario are jealous of that fact.
The funny thing is that if MLSE wanted an MLS team so badly, they woul've set up their own plans to build a stadium and have it completed already. Seems they want to try and cut any losses down to a bare level.
You are off base with your sily coments. MLSE wants a team in MLS. Part of the deal is that a Stadium be built for this. Not one MLS teams has built thier own stadium all by themselves. Just more East Bashing and Envy.
That's one thing I was asking a long time ago. Why would a big outfit like MLSE become a tenant for somebody else? Wouldn't they want total control over parking, concessions etc.? They must be negotiating one sweet deal right now because otherwise I don't know why they would be involved with other parties (excepting the government funds, of course).
In Columbus, the Crew are technically tenants of the Ohio Exposition Center and State Fairgrounds and the Fairgrounds still get the parking revenues AFAIA while the Crew boosted their revenues through the in stadium concessions and control of corporate suites. In the case of the LA Galaxy's Home Depot Center the land is on the campus of California State University, Dominguez Hills. The benefit for the Crew and Galaxy was getting access to a prime piece of real estate to build their stadium on without having to pay the full market rate for it. Having to purchase 15 to 20 acres of land at somewhere like Exhibition Place would potentially add another zero to the stadium cost.
I'm wondering if MLSE has a concessions arm (as part of their empire) that they would hire to do the concessions like the Calgary Flames do for the Stampeders.
Yes they do. They have a divison that does that type of thing. The new Arena in Oshawa will be run by MLSE.
This is speculation obviously but maybe if MLSE kicks in X amount of dollars to the construction cost they would own the corporate suites and have the run of the place in concessions terms on matchdays much like the Argos would have at York U. Suspect whether it happens or not will boil down to whether MLSE's number crunchers (got to keep those teachers' pension fund managers happy) think the sizable short term expenditure required for an expansion fee and to make the stadium deal happen is worth it in terms of the long term growth potential in appreciating franchise value terms. People like Lamar Hunt who got in on the ground floor in pro football terms have made an absolute killing that way relative to the inflation rate. If I were MLSE I'd like to see shovels hitting the dirt in Harrison, NJ. That puts MLS firmly on the path to medium term profitability and long term growth with 2007 being just about the optimal point of entry given that the initial huge losses are now out of the way and the expansion franchise fee is still comparatively low.
That reminds me...Tomorrow I'll have to look for the quote as to when MLSE didn't want to be involved because their number crunchers didn't like the deal. I believe it was when the Argos were involved. I wonder what changed their mind?
More out of the you now where comments. Stop Joe your digging a huge hole for yourself. MLSE pulled out of the first Varsity deal. They bailed because they new the University was not going to go forward with the deal.
Actually it was long before the Argos, there's been so many twists and turns it's hard to keep up. Here's some background. MLSE set to bail on Toronto stadium New arena, practice facility scrapped in new scaled-down project as U of T, CSA and Argonauts forge ahead By PAUL WALDIE With reports from David Naylor Saturday, March 13, 2004 - Page S1 TORONTO -- Maple Leaf Sports and Entertainment is pulling out of a proposal to build a $120-million sports complex at the University of Toronto. An announcement concerning the project is expected this weekend, and sources said a scaled-down version of the project will go ahead with the U of T, Toronto Argonauts and the Canadian Soccer Association. "It's not so much MLSE walked out of this deal, but I think that U of T just wasn't able to work out the economics with them," said David Cynamon, a co-owner of the Canadian Football League's Argos. MLSE chairman Larry Tanenbaum confirmed last night that a change will be announced. "There is a bit of a change, but a continuing dialogue," he said. Asked whether he would still be involved in the project, he replied: "Well, I may or may not be, I'm not sure." MLSE, which owns the Toronto Maple Leafs and Toronto Raptors, was going to kick in about $35-million to help build the complex. It was to include a 25,000-seat stadium with synthetic grass, a shopping area, a new hockey arena and a separate practice rink for the Leafs. The project will now include the stadium, a smaller shopping-restaurant area and renovations to the university's Varsity arena. It is expected to cost about $80-million. "Really the main focus is on the stadium," Cynamon said. Financing will now come largely from the university and government grants. The university has applied for a $25-million federal grant for the project and approached the Ontario government to cover potential revenue shortfalls up to $1.8-million a year. The exit of MLSE is a blow to Tanenbaum, who had been a driving force behind the complex. He proposed the idea last fall with the university and pushed MLSE to get involved. He also raised the possibility of MLSE acquiring half ownership of the Argos once the complex was completed. However, MLSE's board has never keen on the idea and the company's chief executive officer, Richard Peddie, had been calling the project tight for weeks and raising concerns about the finances. The MLSE board finally rejected the plan yesterday. Cynamon also confirmed that MLSE will not be acquiring an interest in the Argos. Peddie was unavailable last night, and a representative of the Ontario Teachers Pension Plan Board, which controls MLSE, declined comment. Officials at the U of T and CSA also wouldn't comment. The original proposal called for the U of T to lease land for the complex to MLSE at no charge for 35 years, after which the facilities would be donated back to the university. It is now expected that the U of T will own the project. However, ownership details have not been worked out. One major concern about the project for MLSE had been the financial health of the Argos. Sources have said that about half of the cash flow from the complex was expected to come from events at the stadium, including Argos games. Sources said lenders were concerned about the Argos and required a government guarantee on any loan. U of T officials had been selling the project as a way of benefiting the campus because students would have access to the facilities and helping the CFL and amateur sports. Toronto-area members of Parliament backed the plan, but some officials acknowledged that the complex was a difficult sell as long as MLSE was involved. "This has to absolutely be positioned that this is about the University of Toronto, this is about amateur sport, this is about soccer, this is not just simply about big-league sport," Jon Dellandrea, the U of T's vice-president of development said this week. "It's seen as good for the university, it's seen as good for soccer, it's seen as good for amateur sport, it's seen as good for the CFL, it's got all the right pieces in it."
MLSE always said that the numbers were tight on that project and eventually they obviously became too tight for them. Shows they are potentially interested though if the numbers work. Hopefully they will at Exhibition Place or Downsview and something will materialize by 2007. Gut instinct is that it's 50:50 at best though.
Worse case scenario? Ivor Wynne or Rogers Centre? Haven't heard much about Rogers Centre lately. I seem to recall Paul Godfrey saying something might be worked out. Difficult to see how they could get rid of the Jays in the summer. Also Bob Young became quite quiet after his 15 minutes of soccer fame. No Plan B for Kevan, yet. Although I think the no news is good news in this case.
Toronto is the only place MLS has a chance..... Montreal would only draw crowds...if they gave tickets away just like they do in USL now......vancouver are known to support teams for a year or 2 max! Chances they would fold..just like the Grizz!!! MLSE is a class oepration!!!...Look what they have done with the Toronto ROCK!!!