Where would you rather see a MLS team in Canada

The Whitecaps are a solid organization with a committed owner who appreciates the sport, is building a stadium, and is aiming for MLS. Montreal is a non-profit with no aspirations whatsoever for MLS. Toronto is a mess right now with politics screwing up their potential soccer stadium and a potential ownership group (MLSE) that isn't very gung ho about the sport.

It looks to me like Vancouver is the best candidate for MLS.

- Paul

 

Do you have anything to back that assertion up? I can remember reading Don Garber talking about the possibility of multiple Canadian franchises with the gist of it being 1 or 2 would be very doable (based on current rules with Canadians classified as domestic players) while a third would probably require some rule tweaking to maintain a competitive balance. Don't have a url, however.

Looking very good for Toronto right now:-

http://www.canadian-soccer.com/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=7423

 

Heres what WUFC posted in the thread "Toronto Stadium site, which is better?"
I can't vouch for its accuracy, but if its a real cut 'n paste then its good news for TO.

 

Beat me to it Blizzard!

 

Well I checked out that link, and it leads to a link to the ESPN chat site. This is a premium subscription feature so I could only see the first part of the chat with Mr Garber, but this chat did take place so it looks like these comments attributed to him today are real. If Mr Garber is coming to Toronto tomorrow, it will be perfect timing for an announcement on a new stadium, which the CSA promised for the end of July.

 

ok lets look at this toronto has a team in ever major league that has crossed the border (this rules out the nfl) and they are surviving but can we say that for montreal or vancouver no in fact vancouver could not even support an NBA franchise and the expos left montreal because nobody showed up at the games. so to accuse toronto not supporting its team is just ignorant we have teams in the CFL,MLB,NHL,NBA,OHL,NLL,USL that is seven sports teams and NONE of them are moving. Only the roadrunners have moved recently and thats cuz the oilers wanted thier farm team to be closer to edmonton. cant say thay for montreal or vancouver

 

The Roadrunners moved because they where evicted from the stadium here for not paying thier bills.

 

The poster, Gianluca, who appears to have access is highly credible and multiple American posters on bigsoccer have posted about it so no concerns about authenticity on this IMO:-

https://www.bigsoccer.com/forum/showthread.php?t=223513&page=2&pp=15

The meeting in Toronto with MLSE must be important if Don Garber is skipping this event in Washington, DC:-

https://www.bigsoccer.com/forum/showthread.php?t=224720

In retrospect, the recent developments in Vancouver (like Bobby Lenarduzzi's MLS in 5 years time quote and the leaks about a new stadium to be built on the downtown waterfront) may have been in anticipation of positive developments about to unfold in Toronto (fingers crossed) so that the Whitecaps fanbase wouldn't be concerned about being left behind.

 

And were immediately replaced by bringing the AHL St John's Leafs to Toronto and renaming them the Marlies. The 'novelty' of sub-NHL hockey hasn't worn off in this city....

 

true but that means they were evicted from the ricoh colloseum not toronto they were looking for a place to play but then edmonton moved them thats why the leafs are moving the "baby leafs" to toronto

 

For those who dont have access to the ESPN chat, someone posted it in its entirety on one of the threads listed by BringBacktheBlizzard. I repost it here:

 

They where botted from Toronto. There was no other choice for them.

Edmonton moved them to Edmonton so they could fill a void with the lockout in place.

Edmonton have suspended the operation of the team. No one wants to touch the team after the fiasco they created in Toronto, Unpaid bills everywhere.

 

Garber may have given us a hint about a stadium here:

Bob (Cleveland, OH): I cannot understand adding a team outside of a team outside of the US. Why add a team in Toronto? Why not add a team in Mexico? How would this impact international player limits? What are the pros and cons over the long haul of Toronto over a US city?

Don Garber: (3:21 PM ET ) Great question, Bob. It starts with the three pillars for successful expansion --- Ownership, Stadium and Market. Mexico has it's own first division pro league, which rules out expansion for us there. Clearly, we hope to continue expansion successfully in the U.S. as well. As it relates to international rules, it is likely that a domestic player will be Canadian and a foreign player will be non-Canadian.

Well Toronto has Ownership, a big soccer-friendly Market, but no Stadium. Maybe he knows something we dont about the hush-hush stadium moves afoot. Don't forget Kevin Pipe was in LA last week scouting out the Galaxy's Home Depot Centre..........

 

Here's a link for the Kevan Pipe and Frank Yallop visit to LA:-

http://thehitchhikersguide.matchnight.com/thgindex.cfm?page=ARTICLE&show=330

Toronto MLS is explicitly mentioned as part of the motivation for them being there. The Home Depot Center is probably seen as the blueprint that the CSA would love to emulate where a national team HQ is concerned.

 

Using the failure of the Grizzlies in Vancouver as an example of a novelty market holds very little water. In the final season of it's existance, all the factors conspiring against a team here finally finished the team off. Here's a brief summary:

1. No connection to the city - The logo sucked, and the public image of the team was of a fat white guy from Oklahoma.

2. $hitty, $hitty team - The team flat-out stunk - 19 straight games without a win at one point(an NBA record), Would you support a team like that? The BEST season they ever had was the year they left (23-59; 0.280)

3. An owner committed to moving the team.

Any BS spouted about attendance and lack of support in the city was meant to cover Heisley's ass.

*
In the first four seasons (the last of which being the lockout season), the attendance average was at it's lowest in season 3 (16,109). After the lockout (and 4 years of sucking) the attendance went down to 13 899. That's competitive with the lean years of the Canucks. No one was clamouring to relocate the LA Clippers (avg 1999/2000 att. of 13,652) or Golden State (12,419). Just wanted to clear that up.

*note:I did not use the last year (00-01) for attendance comparisons because the fate of the team was sealed fairly early and likely had some effect on the crowds (positive and negative). It is worthwile to point out that in that last year, Vancouver finished ahead of New Jersey, Houston and Atlanta.
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Oh yeah: MLS - 1.Montreal,Vancouver (Either would be good, I don't know if I like the idea of not seeing Portland/Seattle in town tho)

2. Toronto - there is no reason to believe that enough "fans" would pull themselves away from watching tv broadcasts of teams from the countries they left behind. Sure, they will come out in droves for Benfica-Panathanaikos, but not some cruddy little local league.

Sorry for the NBA rant but it still pisses me off. If I ever see Stevie Francis I'll drop Big Country on him from a very tall buiding.

 

Montreal is in far better position to have a successful MLS team than any other city in Canada. Reasons?

Beautiful new soccer specific stadium in Ville St.Laurent (due in 2007) that will also be used for the Fifa World youth soccer tournament.

We have the highest attendance in the country. Aprox 12,000. Some people here argued that it was due to ticket giveaways and other promotions. If that was true, why didn't the Expos have the same success with the same promotion tactics??? The reason is simple, the Montreal Impact wins games, our coach is a Montrealer and ex-Impact player well known in the community, the games are well advertised and there are no professional sports (i.e. baseball) that competes for attendance during the season. The same cannot be said about Toronto where they have a lot more things going on.

Another reason? Chicks are hotter here

 

Well Montreal does have the most vibrant and enthusiastically supported USL team in Canada, and yes the chicks are hot. However the stadium being built is too small. MLS requires 20k minimum, Saputo is building a 13k park expandable to 17K. The Montreal market doesnt stand out above other typical US cities in the way the Greater Toronto region now does population and economics wise. Plus the Saputos say they arent interested. So based on pure fan support of the local team I would agree that Montreal deserves it, but not on other important factors.

 

RealGooner you brought some good points.

However, as for the stadium capacity requirements, we have a world class stadium that is currently vacant. Personally I think its funny to see a 90,000 capacity filled with 25,000 compared to a packed 20,000 capacity stadium.

As for the GTA's economy and population, its absolutely true. The potential is greater. However it is only a potential, which you obviously haven't taken advantage of with the Lynx like we have with the Impact.

Personally, I don't like the franchise and salary cap system that MLS has. I think it kills the sport. I'm a big fan of different league levels with the promotion and relegation. I also would like to add that Toronto, Vancouver and Montreal all deserve to have an elite soccer team. Maybe a Canadian Premiership league???

 

I hope to see Toronto Vancouver and Montreal all in MLS in time. I do think Toronto will be the first to get a team.

 

I'd love to hear the following three announcements in the next few weeks:-

(1) SSS construction to get underway at Exhibition Place/Downsview with MLSE providing a sizable portion of the cost.

(2) Construction has started on Stade Saputo and Joey Saputo will cover all the construction cost overruns personally.

(3) Greg Kerfoot announces that yes Johnnie Monster is correct I am building an MLS level stadium there on that piece of waterfront land with my own money and no he isn't just another overexcited soccer-nut with a modem like the Voyageurs loonballs who were convinced the Blizzard were returning in the CUSL and would soon be competing against the Lynx for fans and corporate support and kept on circulating wildly optimistic rumours in cyberspace about a new Canadian pro league even after A League teams had started publically pulling out of the project due to lack of progress.

http://www.canadian-soccer.com/forum/topic.asp?topic_id=6302
http://www.network54.com/Forum/message?forumid=4693&messageid=1004054718
http://www.network54.com/Forum/message?forumid=4693&messageid=1004099277
http://www.network54.com/Forum/message?forumid=4693&messageid=1012504374

but I've got a sinking feeling that (2) and perhaps even (3) are actually partially ploys to try to get the $25 million in federal funding for 2007 earmarked for Toronto at this point and that if (1) goes pear shaped there may be no immediate activity on (2) or (3) (if for example Ivor Wynne stadium or the Rogers Centre were to become the major 20,000 seat minimum venue for the Golden Horseshoe area for 2007 or if FIFA decides to pull out given the lack of progress and moves the tournament elsewhere) although there clearly is some sort of medium to long-term game plan in place in Vancouver. Where people like Joey Saputo and Greg Kerfoot are concerned it is worth remembering that you don't get to be rich by paying for things all by yourself and by burning through a sizable portion of your childrens' eventual inheritance in the process you do it through imaginative schemes that involve securing the use of OPM on favourable terms.

Where Montreal is concerned can you really build a 13,000 seat stadium for $15 million or would a figure of $40 million with that 2007 WYC federal stadium money factored in be more realistic? Has there actually been any activity on the proposed Stade Saputo site yet since the idea was floated that the project could be expanded to 20,000 for 2007 in the aftermath of the York U stadium plan debacle:-

http://www.canadian-soccer.com/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=6793

Worth noting that some of the first media rumblings of a new Vancouver stadium were immediately after the announcement of MLSE's new Varsity stadium plan in Toronto and were based on the assumption that it wouldn't work as a major venue for WYC 2007 soccer:-

http://www.network54.com/Forum/message?forumid=4693&messageid=1074211332

And as for why Toronto it is worth remembering that helping the Argos with a new stadium setup similar to that of the Montreal Alouettes and thus stabilizing the CFL was a major part of the attraction from a federal government standpoint so it's debatable if the money commitment could have been extracted from the government for a stadium somewhere else. Think it will boil down to exactly how much cash MLSE is willing to pump into soccer if a stadium isn't going to be handed to them on a plate based on OPM (probably would have been announced by now if it was) and they are going to have to pick up a very hefty portion of the tab. To end on a positive note it's not that long ago they were talking about doing just that with the new Varsity stadium project so it's still not inconceivable it could happen. If MLSE were to come through where the stadium in TO is concerned there will obviously be pressure from hardcore fans in Vancouver and Montreal to keep up with the Joneses. Hence the need for a vision in place of how to get there.

 

I do not agree with you that Toronto is the ONLY place. It is the most desirable in terms of the market potential. However, Vancouver could be successful if Greg Kerfoot succeeds in getting his stadium built downtown near transit lines. Teams that control their own revenue and scheduling are able to achieve acceptable operating margins in MLS. Currently the Whitecaps get good media coverage in Vancouver and regularly draw over 5,000 fans per game in a crummy stadium in a sub-optimal location. All games are on the radio here. There is a pre-game show, and a separate Whitecaps show on a major radio station here Saturday mornings. There is a strong history and many people remember going to Empire Stadium to see people like Peter Beardsley play for the Whitecaps. I see no reason why the team couldn't draw 15K per game regularly with the occassional 20K crowd for big games.

 

Toronto is the obvious front-runner for any MLS expansion talks.

other cities can come long after if theyd like.