Lets be honest the biggest reason working against a good women's team is the presence of a new men's team. The Charge operated in a soccer competition-free time. It's like getting two toys you wanted on Christmas but the Union are the video game and the Independence are an action figure.
I'll admit that I've prioritized the Union over the Independence. But, I actually only went to one Charge game and have already been to two Independence games and plan to go this Sunday and maybe even another after that. For me, the process around getting the Union has made me much more excited about going to soccer games in person and being a soccer fan in general. I used to be more just into playing. I think there's a larger number of soccer fans out there and the product the Independence put out there is good enough to keep the fans coming back if they try it once. The organization just needs to crack into peoples' busy lives with much improved marketing and ideally a new stadium location. Hopefully, Union support will continue to grow and people who can't get Union tix and/or want something a bit more affordable will go to Independence games.
To be honest, the charge had a good product, but I moved here in 2001 and did not know there was a team until late into 2002... 2003 was an abysmal year for the charge with Rain each gameday into late July... Yet they still put 7000 fans in the seats... they gave away alot of tickets and each one of their camp attendees got a ticket to the following game. I do not think that not having another soccer team really helped the charge as much, such as I think the Union does not hurt the Independence. Even though there is a some fan crossover, I do not think it is significant Location and ticket prices at this juncture have more to do with it. I think the prices, if lowered or discounts offered to clubs and perks offerred to clubs (sell 200 and get a training day with a player, 250 for 2 players....)
I think if they moved closer to PPL Park area it would help. I know I would attend more. I live in SJ and as such it is too far of a hike to goto games there. IF it was at Widner or if they moved east a bit I would attend and maybe get season tickets. It just is too far out there for me at the moment.
I remember when Heather was playing in Boston and they would put players on any show for publicity. She was put on a show where the hosts absolutely hated soccer and womens soccer even more. They actually left the show and had an underling do the interview. Then the 2 hosts (John Dennis and Jerry Callahan a pair of bigger neanderthals you will not meet) returned after the interview and proceeded to insult her and her sport for the remaining time. After that and the resulting pissed off reaction by Breakers fans the Breakers were a bit more selective about where they placed their players for interviews.
Yeah, obviously it's important to weed out anything where the players wouldn't be treated with respect. I would think that would be pretty easy to do, but maybe a producer would lead the team to expect a respectful interview and then the on-air "talent" could behave otherwise. If I remember back to the Charge days, I think Mitts and/or Fair were on the WIP morning show and were only treated semi-respectfully. I could be remembering incorrectly, but I think more attention was paid to their looks than to their play. Some of that is probably fine, but it could cross a line. Regardless, I've been surprised at the lack of appearances by Independence players. For example, why are they just now getting involved at Union games? I hope the front office hits their stride soon. I'm still having trouble getting people there to call me back when they say they will.
Mitts used to appear on the Barsky show and 96-5 the point. As for the topic of where the fans are, I liked the football stadium and think the WCU crew does a good job with it, however I still look forward to moving into PPL. how come Franklin Field was never considered along with the three colleges that were in negotiations? I guess parking or costs was an issue. It just seems like half the fanbase is being cut off by distance. I finally made my first game because I don't want to make the 1.5 hour trip each way every week and I don't know anyone else in my area "crazy?" enough about soccer to travel to West Chester . I can get to Chester in under an hour with 95 or the SEPTA/shuttle bus but West Chester is a long ways out there. The Charge (Delco-Montco border), The Pirates (Swarthmore and Downingtown), and now the Indies (WCU) have all played their games in Chester/Delco area so hopefully this will translate well to PPL park.
You are right that I'm not in the Philly area. And I'll accept the statements by you & other Philly area folks that the location of WCU is really hurting attendance numbers. Of course, other business related short-comings are also likely hurting attendance (ie not calling back potential customers). But I stand by my assertion that paying top dollar for PPL rent will cause significant financial difficulties for the Independence unless they are able to average +5-6k. I also stand by my belief that such hemorrhaging of funds could be fatal to the team and keeping the team alive is my top priority. Survive & advance means something a bit different when the league has already lost 2 teams. Three times the cost really could end the team and I don't think anyone wants that. CRS is looking to move out of Toyota Park b/c the cost is too high and their attendance is much better than Philly's (and Toyota Park is kinda out there & takes awhile for travel). Maybe a better step toward getting more exposure and/or playing in PPL would be a double header w/ the Union. Maybe fans of both teams could start asking for/letting both front offices know they'd be interested in a double header. If the two teams are able to amicably work together to set up a double header, that would be a great sign that they might be able to work out a stadium use deal at somewhat reduced cost for the WPS games. But, as other posters have noted, the Union hasn't been willing to give the WPS team a break on the operation costs were they to move to PPL. Much like the cost for SBFC to hold a game at the new RedBulls' place would have cost them more than the rest of their home games. I'll hope, with the rest of you Independence fans, that the team is able to secure a facility easier for fans to travel to that won't cripple the team financially. The attendance numbers look bad (and reporting those numbers several days later looks even worse--that's another front office failure/red flag) but if it only takes <2k fans to pay for WCU, that's a good thing for season 1.
I don't think we're writing off PPL yet but I would think Franklin Field and Villanova Stadium for transit access are better options than WCU's field. Attendance in Chester should be good enough for year one (5 to 10 k per game) but what to do after the novelty wears off?
Or do a trial balloon with a one game double header with the union for this upcoming season and see how that goes.
Kool Aide, you raise some good points. I'm one who thinks they could exceed 5K a game at PPL but there is the question of whether that looks good in a stadium that holds 18.5K. I've got to think they could eventually be able to cut a deal with the landlord. The Union is only playing 15 games a year at PPL and it might be used for a few other events like concerts and youth soccer events but adding another regular tenant might be a good thing, even if they are not paying the desired rent. But there are other options that have been outlined -- both longterm and short term -- that would also be better than the current one. There has been some talk here in Philly of the Indy playing a home playoff game at PPL this year. So that could be a test to see the potential ceiling of their draw there. I agree with your point about WPS/MLS doubleheaders. I remember when WPS was formed, the league said one of the lessons it learned from WUSA failure was that it needed to create more synergies with MLS. That's why they shifted the season to basically mirror the MLS schedule. They had talked about doubleheaders in cities that have both MLS and WPS teams but I can't recall anything happening like that yet. Regardless of the operations cost of the venue, if you are not drawing 2K because of location/marketing, that is crippling for season one because you are limiting your ability to establish short-term relationships with paying fans that could have morphed into longterm ones. You can look at it and say that they got through the year or you can say they could have done better in year one in a different venue. But the team deserves credit for hiring a relatively unknown coach who has proven to be the equal of any of his peers, putting a strong product on the field, and recently enhancing their marketing efforts in a cost-efficient manner. That sounds like a winning formula to take into a new venue in season two.
I've been around women's soccer for a really long time. I've seen Wleague teams come & go. I've lost one pro league & "my" team in that league. And it sucked, big time. I've now seen 2 teams in WPS fold. And it sucked. I'll generally err on the side of "don't spend yourself out of a league" in these sorts of discussions. Given that I accept your point that there could be a serious increase in attendance w/ a venue change, surely there's a way to find a closer place that doesn't cost what PPL costs. What other places are possible venues that wouldn't cost an arm & a leg and might not be horrid turf that'll kill knees? As for MLS cooperation, only the Freedom & DCU have held any double headers. Maybe there was one Galaxy/Sol one. My memory fades on that. There have been reports/rumors out of several other places where both MLS/WPS exists/existed that there was not the sort of good working relationships and/or good reception of WPS needed for the sort of "break on rental costs" and/or doubleheaders. Playing at the HDC was a massive burden in costs for the Sol. I remember reading something by Peter Wilt talking about how the Fire was less than eager to work together/cooperate w/ some stuff. These things just make me think there won't be deal cutting w/ landlords. :shrugs: I'd love to be wrong in Philly's case. Thanks for the good discussion.
PPL Park - capacity 18,000. the cost to rent aside, this building is vacant 340 days a year, and it was designed for the purpose of new philly soccer teams. 18 miles away from center city and convenient to I-95. Creates a potential synergy between MLS and WPS fans and organizations, crews, support staff Franklin Field - capacity 52,593. Host of the Penn Quakers and Penn Relays. Does anything else go on here other than practice for most of the year? I do not know. There is on-site parking available in the lots surrounding the Stadium. The two most convenient lots are located at 34th and Chestnut Streets and South Street and Convention Avenue (this parking lot can be found by making a left at the first traffic light on South Street. The lot entrance is down on the left.). Villanova Stadium - capacity 12,500 Former home of the now defunct WUSA Philadelphia Charge (attendance ranged from 4k to 11k). I don't see the downsides although it should be noted that the area has been a traffic nightmare whenever basketball and football events occur, especially multiple events near each other in time Lincoln Financial - capacity 34,870+ (soccer) I hate to rule this one out as quickly as everyone else will. It could be the most likely of all these to attract casual and walk-up fans, and is the most accessible to the southern NJ and city fanbase. Given the costs of renting the building despite its longtime vacancy during the entire regular season. Mia Hamm and the USWNT played here in a doubleheader here which drew 31,533 in 2004 WCU John A Farrell Stadium- capacity 7,500 Has sustained attendance between 3,000 and 6,000 for home games. Facility has ample parking but no train station access. Location is on a two lane road that is 40 miles away from center city and no "direct route".
Kool Aide, other options besides PPL that have been raised on this board include: 1) Villanova U's stadium, which seats 12.5K. The Charge played there but Kelly Smith tore up here knee in a horrific non-contact injury on really bad turf. Some have said that's where the Indy wanted to play but couldn't work it out because they were replacing the surface. It is a more central location with good access to public transportation and major highways, and good parking. 2) Widener U has a 4K stadium but it has a track wrapped around it, which takes away the intimacy for fans. It is located in Chester, the same town as PPL. So some think soccer fans already trained to go to Chester for the Union games might find this a good option. 3) Franklin Field is U of Penn's old (built in 1895) stadium in West Philly that holds 52K and also has a track wrapped around it. Parking might be an issue (not sure) but it is also centrally located. Negative would be the artificial turf IMO. 4) Campbell's Field is in Camden, NJ, right across the river from Center City Philadelphia (people actually walk across the bridge from Philly to get there). It is a minor league baseball stadium that holds 6,400. Some on the board have said they would not want to watch a soccer game on a baseball field because they think it would have bad sight lines. Others think it's a great location with perfect parking and seating capacity. It could be a short-term answer. 5) That leads to another option that has been discussed. Partnering with Temple University to build a stadium on its Ambler campus that could be used by all of the school's field teams with the Indy agreeing to be a tenant. This would be a longterm solution predicated on the league surviving so moving to Widener or Campbell's could be a temporary solution until such a stadium could be completed. Did I forget any other options Philly people?
I would much rather the organization decide to stay at WCU than downgrade to Widener. there is no justification for going down to 4k capacity after already demonstrating with the Charge and the Indy that crowds of 6k-11k are possible, with repeat frequency. Widener's 4k capacity would be a huge regression. and if they were in another playoff race and sold out every game it would not serve the purpose well of trying to be a fan accessible team.
I personally agree with you Hykos. I think Widener is too small. But it was brought up on this board. I like the Campbell's idea more, even if it is just temporary. Also would like to see what kind of turf they get at Villanova but I hate artificial turf.
Nova - Turf Franklin - Turf PPL - Natural Grass Widener - Turf Campbell's - Natural Grass Lincoln Financial - Grass WCU John A Farrell - Turf I tried to name other options just for fun and the only locales I could come up with were Rowan (not going there) and TCNJ (too small and too close to SkyBlue)
They are installing Field Turf, like many pro teams VILLANOVA UNIVERSITY WILDCATS SELECT FIELDTURF FOR VILLANOVA STADIUM Villanova University has become the latest NCAA University to select FieldTurf for its main stadium, home to the school’s defending champion football team, field hockey team, and men’s and women’s lacrosse teams. The FieldTurf installation at Villanova Stadium is set to begin the last week of May.
philafan, hykos1045, and pasoccerdad, thanks a bunch for the info on alternative locations & good discussion. I'm not a fan of turf and many players aren't fans of turf. But, if that's what's available, that's what's available. The baseball stadium sightlines might not be as bad as some might think. Doesn't Kansas City play in a baseball park? And I know SBFC played a couple of games at a minor league park last season. Fans seem happy enough there. And it has grass and maybe is close enough in for folks... I will say that basing any attendance projections on what a WUSA team got is a bad idea. None of the teams in locations where there were WUSA teams have come close to similar attendance. So, while I agree that a field w/ only 4k seating (is it possible to add seating?) would not be a good move at all, I wouldn't base a stadium choice on Charge attendance figures. I don't see the Independence (or any WPS team) drawing close to WUSA numbers for at least several years.
I think Camden is a nix idea; it cannot accommodate traffic very well if it were to be able to draw that many people over a bridge and back. but I would get season tickets there due to the relative proximity and the patco system. Wouldn't it be in the charter for PPL park to have to accommodate for WPS? Someone said the WPS would not get a break but all things considered I expect it's in PPL Park's and the Union's best interest to have the proprietership instead of competing with another facility. When fans get used to going there for soccer it should increase demand for tickets as well as spreading the as of now bleeding vendors and event staff overhead, all of which has the most potential to help both teams. I was sad to see this thread pursue alternate options so readily even though I realize these financial concerns ought not to be ignored. I really hope PPL gets it for the team and fans to have the best experience. Test market the playoffs (pending home field clinch but the facility planning must start behind the scene in advance)
Where are the fans? Well, we got burned last time with the Charge, so some are hesitant to lay it all out there again. My friends uber-supported the Charge: went to games, bought swag, partied with them. When that league went under, our hearts had a little piece ripped out; I put my Charge jersey out in the trash... Time heals all: Sunday will be my 3rd Cheesesteaks match with the SoBs; should be fun! Go Independence!
Back in the WUSA days the Philly fans were some of the most admired! I'm glad to hear some are coming back. These gals work very hard and deserve your support! Thank you.
Just because they built it, doess not mean they will sacrifice the operating costs to get a team in there... the financial burden would break this team. The ownership has worked with the PPL and there are many costs that can't be reduced to the point where it is feasable. You need to pay additional security, the lighting and water and gate people and parking and a clean up crew and many other additional costs associated with running a larger facility.... If 6K (full price Paying seats) can come regularly next season, then a move would be a decent one... but I am hoping they play in a smaller venue, It is so nice to be able to take a picture with the players at the same level as the people. I hate having to reach down to have something autographed. sometimes bigger is not better for the fan experience
pascocerdad I like your perspective. a lot of the younger fans may tune out a big park because the player is too far away and therefore anonymous and irrelevant. it's something I hadn't considered when I thought of the other PPL drawbacks ($, geo location, etc)