I mean in his current form (Copa+Miami), if without injuries... Where he is in current top players in the world by strict impact - top-10? top-20? top-30? top-50? I mean not popularity, not accolades (balon dor approach), only who do you choose to win the game or tournament. Discuss.
It's hard to say because Messi has a Pelé trait that few other players have. That is coming from behind, setting up the play and finishing. He's the attacking midfielder who can score goals and provide assists. So even when he's old, his style is rare. I don't think that Messi is a top 5 player anymore
He has world best moments still, but 90 minutes football..... he walks on the pitch and is rather truly detrimental. I would say he isn't a T5 player anymore and clearly and his ultra level football genius can't cover it anymore, perhaps since 2020 or so (with the excepction of WC2022). Cristiano Ronaldo as well since 2020 or so.
He has quality, but he doesn't have the fitness, nor does he play at a high level anymore. Top 100 at best
But in WC 2022 Messi played like best player in the world (in Copa 2021 too). So, in small distance he was capable to do so. Today I dont think its the case.
I don't know where Messi currently ranks, the current technical level seems very low to me but he is certainly no longer a player who can shift the balance on his own or in any case could do so if he played with very little playing time. Messi hasn't been a dominant player for years, he has flashes of genius because he has infinite class but you have to analyze the 90 minutes and most of the time is spent walking around the pitch. There was the 2022 parenthesis, a good World Cup but nothing epochal as many would have you believe, he was good at taking advantage of certain episodes but his teammates also ran for him and speaking honestly he also seemed quite pushed by the various referees . Two matches were won on penalties and France's equalizer came from an error on his part in midfield, then the final victory makes us forget everything but for me Messi played an above average World Cup for his age, but if we talk in general there are many players who in my opinion did better even if they didn't win.
Assuming he's healthy he's still top 5 ish. Honestly still probably has a case as #1. Look at it this way. Nobody out of the major stars really had a better international tournament than an injured Messi. And when I make this ranking, I'm assuming a healthy Messi. Through the first two games of the Copa, he led in WhoScored and SofaScore rankings by a big margin because of the sheer chances he created. Then he got hurt missed the third match, played horrible vs. Ecuador while limited, another good game vs. Canada then got reinjured again in the Final.
Messi played 4.5 games this tournament, in which 3 of them he was really injured for extended periods of time. Messi scored 1 and assisted 1, but he was involved in 3 other goals. So out of the 9 goals Argentina scored, an injured Messi was involved in 5 of them. Also, this stat: Most big chances created in a single Copa América or Euro Cup tournament since 1980: 9 - Neymar (2021) 8 - Lamine Yamal (2024) 7 - Lionel Messi (2024) Then the WhoScored/Sofascore ratings, whether you believe in them or not. So yes, an injury-free Messi is easy Top 5. Compare his tournament to the likes of Mbappe, Bellingham, and Vinicius for their countries. Not too far off - all of them were subdued.
How to manipulate stats to make an impossible argument 101. You fanboys need to let it rest. The man can barely move at this point and his goal was a 3cm deflection. He missed two 1v1 chances embarassingly because his body is giving up on him. And he injured himself in the final as his body is breaking down / can't sustain aggressive movement. He's semi-retired enjoying himself in a trash league, while you have top players battling it out twice a week. How can you be so disrespectful and delusional?
Messi was not the world's best player when he was still playing in Europe during his final years there. It is thus unlikely he now is while playing in the USA. I largely agree with @Kroos46 The last time Messi played like the best player in the world, the best player of all-time a chunk would say, at a reasonably consistent rate was 2018-19 (aged 31 throughout the whole season). After that there has been a steady decline. His lack of basic passive defending was a key reason why Bayern Munich could run rings around Barcelona and win with 8-2. At PSG his presence caused tactical unbalances when they played against teams approaching their own talent. Barcelona could win league titles again (2019 the last one) after Messi was gone. That sounds harsh but I think that is reality (for a long while Xavi didn't have better results as Koeman, but that's another discussion). In the 2021 and 2024 Copa America wins Argentina played one established team, that is Brazil in 2021. In both finals Messi did very little and was literally among the worst rated players on the field. Current Chile has an Elo rank of #40. That is behind Scotland, Greece and Norway. Behind Hungary and Panama. The 2024 Copa America shows: 8.5 vs Canada, 8.1 vs Chile, 6.6 Ecuador, 7.4 Canada, 7.1 Colombia. 2022 World Cup: 7.7 vs Saudi Arabia, 7.9 vs Mexico, 8.2 vs Poland, 8.0 Australia, 9.1 Netherlands, 7.8 Croatia, 9.2 France. Again: penalties in almost every round really help a lot and I maintain the Netherlands and France matches merit an asterisk for their clear illnesses. It is at 7.5 or above at every game but I think most will agree that the 'Barcelona Messi' had created clear daylight between himself and Platini 1984, or the aged 31 Bergkamp in 2000 (against, on average, better opponents). Per the indexes he really didn't. 2021 Copa America: 7.5 Paraguay, 9.9 Bolivia, 9.4 Ecuador, 8.5 Colombia, 6.4 Brazil (that is below the starting rating!) 2019 Copa America: 7.4 vs Paraguay, 7.2 vs Qatar, 7.4 vs Venezuela, 7.6 vs Brazil, 7.0 vs Chile 2018 World Cup: 7.3 vs Iceland, 7.1 vs Croatia, 8.7 vs Nigeria, 8.1 vs France (Mbappe had a 9.1, for what's worth) 2016 Copa America: 9.1 vs Panama, 6.7 vs Bolivia, 9.4 vs Venezuela, 9.9 vs USA, 7.6 vs Chile (behind Romero, Bravo, Ottamendi, Jara) 2015 Copa America: only shows the final, 7.7 vs Chile (behind Isla, Romero) 2014 World Cup: 8.5 vs Bosnia & Herz., 7.9 vs Iran, 9.4 vs Nigeria, 8.4 vs Switzerland (120 minutes..), 6.6 vs Belgium, 7.3 vs Netherlands, 6.7 vs Germany 2011 Copa America: not rated 2010 World Cup (the Maradona vanity project): 9.1 vs Nigeria, 7.7 vs South Korea, 7.8 vs Greece, 7.6 vs Mexico, 7.6 vs Germany 2007 Copa America: not rated, rout by Brazil in the final (the first established opponent they played against - Argentina had on paper a great line-up there) 2006 World Cup: 8.8 vs Serbia, 6.4 vs Netherlands, 6.9 vs Mexico ---------------- Make of this what you want but imho, if you read this with some focus, you can see a decline in the last five year. Messi has also always played for a top five Elo team, you can say. For 2022 Argentina was quite workmanlike, true, not so many superstar names, but also one of the three clear pre-tournament favorites. The surrounding Copa Americas show this wasn't only because of an (ageing) Messi. In the past I have been critical at times on Messi, but that is mainly because: a) this is Barcelona territory too and the idea originated Messi was a saint ("never dives") and Ronaldo the childish villain; b) I maintain that the HGH story gives an uncomfortable feeling and in many European countries he wouldn't qualify, legally; c) when people throw around liberally someone is unquestionably the "greatest of all-time", then that of course triggers a reaction. That merits scrutiny, rather than only confirmation like a cheerleader, as our own three times Ballon d'Or winner would say. I am now at the stage it is either Pelé and Messi as top two for me, or them alongside a few others (not just those two and Maradona - that's imho genuinely false). Bottomline: Messi wasn't better as an (also ageing) Lewandowski when he was still playing in Europe. It is unlikely he is now. He doesn't show it any more against the real top class teams, like Brazil or Colombia (or even Ecuador, with an Elo rank of #14 now). You can well argue people as Cruijff and, yes, also Cristiano (at euro 2021 in all the games) actually did at a similar age, at a consistent rate, but not Messi any more.
What part of "he was the best player for Argentina in terms chance creation/playmaking, and a top-3 player for Argentina based on ratings" don't you understand, clown? He has performed well below his average due to injury, still better than most players in the tournament, that's what Messi's greatness is about. Continue crying "but but it's unfair" BS.. He was the MOTM in the semi-final despite his injury. Messi can miss sitters, yet can still dominate the game and be the MOTM. You're the one truly delusional and disrespectful with your BS football knowledge. Imagine questioning Messi's value by missed chances, lol. football iq=not found
Pure BS.. go, educate yourself on what Messi did in his last season in Europe, comparing him with Lewa as if Messi is also a penalty box poacher.. https://onefootball.com/en/news/pla...rope-in-2223-including-messi-haaland-37660873 https://www.planetfootball.com/quick-reads/europe-top-10-chance-creators-2022-23-messi-kdb-saka-more https://www.planetfootball.com/quic...europe-premier-league-la-liga-ligue-1-2022-23 https://onefootball.com/en/news/the...ssists-in-europe-in-22-23-messi-saka-37438279 35 year old Messi vs 24 year old Mbappe in Ligue 1 + UCL 2022-23 40 G/A in 39 games vs Mbappe with 45 in 42 games Highest per game rating in Europe 8.3 (vs Mbappe 7.81) Most MOTM in Europe (14 vs Mbappe with 7) Most assists in Ligue 1 (2nd most in Europe) 2nd most assists in Europe after KDB in Ligue 1+ UCL 2nd most big chance creation in Europe 2nd most successful dribbles in Europe With your logic, Lewa should be also better than Mbappe. Not to mention he was the best playmaker in Europe along with KDB, the MVP in the WC, the MOTM in Finalissima. Casually sneaks in penaldo the ghost to the conversation flexing his shitty Euro 2021 campaign as usual with 3 penalty goals and a tap-in all in group stage as usual while criticizing Messi's penalties when he had one of the most iconic WC performances ever by consensus (excluding penaldo fans under copium treatment) reducing Messi's impact to penalties. Below is for you (mind you Rio is also there, one of the biggest fanboys of penaldo yet can't stop talking about how great of a campaign he had). This is what Rio poster after the WC final. #messi x #argYou done what everyone asked - for a superstar going into this World Cup to become even greater, to create even better moments, to decide games, to bring more joy, to make us hold our heads in awe….you done all this and more!Wow & thank you 🙏🏽— Rio Ferdinand (@rioferdy5) December 19, 2022 Then says, but but Messi doesn't perform against big sides. Go watch what he did to Croatia, Netherlands, France in the WC... Uruguay in 2022 WC qualifiers, to Italy in the Finalissima.. conveniently ignoring his injury troubles against Brazil in Copa' 21 final, anad against Ecuador/Colombia in this tourney etc. If you are so interested in his performances against Ecuador type of teams, why don''t you also talk about his games against Australia, Poland, Mexico, Peru, Canada etc. Picks one bad game against an average/above average side completely ignoring his MOTM performances against all types of sides and writes a thesis, loll.. This is what happens when someone talks BS without much info thinking nobody would notice.
He has not dominated a game in nearly 10 years mate. And besides the 2022 WC, he has not been a top 10 player since 2018 at least
The best player in the world now, whether it's Mbappe/Vini/whoever is nowhere near 2019 Messi so saying that current Messi is nowhere near 2019 Messi doesn't preclude him from being in the conversation for best in the world. Messi played three relatively healthy matches in this Copa (GS Canada GS.Chile SF Canada) and in those three matches had 1 goal 1 assist and dominated in terms of chance creation with 12 key passes and 7 big chances created. 2 MOTM in those three matches too. I said he's in the top 5 with conversation as the best with the assumption that he is healthy. Of course, one can argue that's an unreasonable assumption but that was the spirit of the thread I think. No one is asking if an injured Messi is the best. As for the 2021 Copa and 2022 WC he had one bad match in those two tournaments combined and that was the Final against Brazil. He got 10 MOTM awards in 14 matches which is quite unprecedented and 6 MOTM awards in 7 knockout stage matches. Of course this was 2-3 years ago so it doesn't necessarily translate to current Messi but in those years he had a definite argument as the #1 best player. He sure scored 4 pens, but in those 7 knockout matches, he also scored 3 non-penalty goals and had 5 assists. And once again a playmaking machine with 24 key passes and 11 big chances created as well.
His best rated matches by far in 2022 are against Netherlands and France. Those teams were sick and not healthy (plus the referees giving a PK on the first possibility; Van Gaal said how it was). Like @Kroos46 said, Messi also caused the equalizer for France. Meanwhile, Brazil in 2021 was by far the lowest. Below the starting rating. It is a sign he doesn't do it against the best any more. Current Chile stands below Scotland and Panama. MOTM awards... I don't think those are valid. But let's leave it there. I provided my observation (in some haste).
lmaaaaooooo.... great username & post connection, "SayWhatBSIwant", lol Messi since 2018 3 Ballon D'or 3 FIFA Best 3 times La Liga top scorer 2 times La Liga most assists UCL top scorer Golden Shoe Ligue 1 most assists WC MVP Copa MVP Copa most goals Copa most assists Finalissima MOTM
Let them cope, bro.. They are all aware what they are doing, but it's fun to watch the level of mental gymnastics they're doing to feel good, we have to be more understanding of their mental breakdown. imagine the amount of delusions one needs to create to downgrade a player like Messi, it must be extremely painful. For ex, we've one genius above repeating "but but hasn't dominated for 10 years" like a parrot, nothing will change his mind, because that's the only way he can cope, lol.. and another one saying "but but Netherlands and France were sick, lmaooo.. becomes such a "health" sensitive poster to downgrade Messi's performances against them only to ignore Messi's health issues, injuries in this tournament, the level of hypocrisy..
We've had these tired conversati9ns. The issue is dealing with fanboys that are so removed from reality we can never have common ground. If Messi was a top player he would be tearing it up for a top club in a top competition. He looks geriatric on the pitch and humiliated himself for almost the last 10 years in champions league. The WC22 was beautoful as it was a last hurrah and the last chance we saw a high level performance from him.
both things can be true in both cases the conclusion remains the same he is subpar vs good/ great teams when he is much older and unfit in Copa 2024 he is only great vs great teams with the cards overwhelming stacked in his favour Questionable Penalty calls is one thing Receiving Preferential treatment by referees another Facing A Covid virus ravaged team missing key players like the ballon dor benzema is also another https://www.forbes.com/sites/brucel...before-2022-world-cup-final-versus-argentina/ https://amp.theguardian.com/footbal...oman-train-apart-virus-france-world-cup-final One of these alone raises the eyebrow.. All of these combined smells worse than the faeces that exits your mouth.
2020-2022 Messi was best player in the world for short tournament then motivated. 2021 Copa he was best player. 2022 WC he was best player (slightly ahead of Mbappe). Nobody could play at the time on this level even in short stretches. Today its not the case. Today even in "healthy" games in Copa he was not on best player in the world level. BTW for CR7 fanboys and clowns: Ronaldo wasnt on 2nd-3rd best player in the world (its his best prime level - below Messi and parity with Ney) level since 2018.