I agree that Beckham was the best player in the world back in 99. He was the main reason why MU won the Champions League (I think about 60% of all goals that MU scored came from his passes), he was also probably the main reason why MU won the FA Cup... Winning La Liga is a nice achievement, but Rivaldo couldn't deliver in Champions League (btw, Beckham was the best player on the field in games against Barca too). Although I would at least accept an argument for him. I am of the opinion that you have to win something in order to be considered the best in any particular year. Mentioning Zidane as the best player in 99 is beyond ridiculous. He's never been a great player for Juventus, but in 99 Juve was unable to get into a TOP 3 in Serie A and was crushed by MU in Turin, how can he even be considered as the top player then? Inter with Ronaldo took a mighty 8th spot in Serie A and Ronaldo scored less goals than the guy by the name of Muzzi from Cagliari (who was not even in TOP 5 scorers of Serie A, and did Ronaldo play a single game in 99-00 season?). I agree that overall (on average at their best) all the players you metioned are better than Beckham. But in 99 there was not a single player in the world who was more valuable than Beckham to MU. And being the MVP of the club that achieved something that's never been done before IMO counts for something.
Point duly noted my man, I'm not criticizing senor Perez' business competency at all. What I'm balking at is the extension being offered to someone who might hamper a good player deal in the future. I thought he would gradually finish his contract in 2007 (playing starter this season, and rotating like the moon next season) so a good deal can be set up for someone younger and probably better. Granted, Beckham is hustle on the pitch, but sometimes that's about it. On any given day crosse may fail to connect and free kicks may end up busting balls instead of nets. And on marketing probability there is the fact that looks will only get you so far. Someone with more flair, panache and higher success-rate will eventually take over, and it might even happen before 2009. I find it difficult to believe that Beckham will have the same marketing power in 2+ years as the last 2 years. A one-year extension might be enough... Ahh..., maybe I just like that Andalucian matador too much, bringing the Copa to his wedding
Yeah right...Beckham was so good that he wasn't even considered for the player of the year in England. It was all Beckham in the CL and EPL, Yorke was a non-factor and yet he almost became player of the year (just lost out to Ginola). Schmeichel, Keane, Cole etc. were also definitely outclassed by Beckham I am sure. Rivaldo delivered the Spanish league and the Copa America, and defeated some fine teams in the CL almost single-handedly. He was the highest scorer and best player at the Copa America. He also became the World Player of the Year. FIFA, all the journalists, coaches and players from England and all over the world were definitely biased against Beckham. Seriously, forget Rivaldo. David Beckham could never come anywhere near the form David Ginola was in, in 1999. Nor could he ever be as influential as Keane or Yorke. Do you think Beckham has the caliber to become the best player at an international tournament? For all his hard work, he just doesn't have the skills to be as good. Beckham better than Rivaldo because he produced some telling crosses...LOL!! If he could be 50% of the player Rivaldo was in 1999, he would be LOT better than he ever was and would gain far more respect as a player than he does.
Me too, believe me, me too....but this year with Betis playing CL it was going to be just about impossible to get him anyway. Betis' president, Lopera, is funny that way. He doesn't need the money at all (even though after what happened to him with Denilson he doesn't go around spending too much either), and if he says no, that is all there is to it. Joaquin or any other Betis player would also not play games with Lopera (you know, not showing up for training, complaining in the press, going on strike...) like many other players have done to come to Real Madrid, simply because Lopera, as much as I hate the illiterate, ignorant country side santeria practicer that he is (I am not kidding), is very loyal to his players, and the players to him. Look at the history of Alfonso in Betis, coming back and forth but always having a job and even a retirement in the club, Denilson, always kept by his side for so many years in spite of his huge failure....Lopera doesn't treat people bad or as strictly business, certainly not the 1st 11, he always gives people second and third chances even....the players know that. He builds a relationship with them. Look at Joaquin taking the King's Cup to his wedding. The only thing that will put Joaquin at Real is Lopera's friendship with Florentino, the same that I think has also made Florentino not even think about bothering Lopera and Betis in a CL year. It is not really keeping Beckham that has done it more than this. Also, as I just more or less explained, it won't be the money that will put Joaquin at Real more than the good relationship between the two presidents. Betis is not a big team, but Real will not get Joaquin simply with purchasing power, Lopera could care less about that. Now, Chelsea may come and make an offer that Lopera would be stupid to refuse, one that even Florentino would understand, but guess what, they have already offered 30mill. for him and Lopera has said no. He is keeping Joaquin for us when the time is right, don't worry, and for two reasons: #1 Florentino, and #2, Joaquin has told him that when he moves it will be to Real, and Lopera will respect that because he respects Joaquin, when the time is right for all three parties.
I have hardly seen anyone wearing a Real Madrid shirt with Beckham on it in TO. Mostly it is Roberto Carlos or Zidane. However, most people wear Brazilian NT shirts and Ronaldo dominates. When I went to Thailand, I saw a lot of EPL shirts (Beckham was in EPL then)...mostly ManU. Thus, I am guessing, most of these Beckham shirt sales occur in Asia where people are either bowled over by his descent, or by his good looks and money, which would be being too shallow. Asia is developing rapidly these days and money is pouring in the pockets more than ever before. The sight of money and glamour are enough to persuade Asians these days over quality.
you make it seem like beckham is complete shite...he isn't did you even watch the second barca game...he was all over the field. and besides why would an asian choose to wear a south american shirt over people from say europe. i'm asian and you would never catch me dead wearing an italian player shirt or a south american player shirt.
Now now..I live in Toronto and I saw at least 3 Real Beckham jerseys at York in the summer when the campus is practically empty. Ur right that most jerseys in Toronto are national jerseys though. But I have noticed the Real jerseys slowly increasing the last 4 yrs. At school, the Real jerseys are right up there with any other one now. A few years ago...a Real sighting was extremely rare.
You are missing the point. Yorke and Cole were so valuable to Manchester United because of Beckham. Both of them had great seasons, because they are the types of forwards that could succeed in the right team with right players. And you could clearly see that if you look at their careers before/after playing for Man United, and with or without Beckham. What MU achieved was a total team effort, but IMO each of the players on a team was replacable and MU could've still won without any one of them, with probably only three major exceptions - Schmeichel, Keane and Beckham. And ultimately, MU managed to win the final CL game without Keane (and Keane also missed most of the final FA CUP game won by MU). I mean come on, remember some of the contributing players to that team? Blumquist, Cruyf, Johnsen, Berg, May... And btw you were joking about the fact that that some people in England were biased against Beckham in 99, but actually you are not far from the truth. In fact, I do think that if Beckham hadn't become a scapegoat in England right after the '98 World Cup he would've had a better chance to get FIFA player of the year award. Being recognized as the second best player in the world (and the best European player) a year after many people thought his career was over and he was crucified by everyone (with the exception of MU fans) in England also speaks for itself. I saw some of the English newspapers and magazines after England lost to Argentina - and it was pretty much Beckham's public funeral. Plus, don't forget, he did get UEFA Most Valuable Player and UEFA Best Midfielder awards in 99. And he played with and against the best players in the world. Hey, Barcelona was in the same group with Manchester United, but couldn't even make it out of it to the next round. Nothing against Copa America, but with that logic you may argue that Zagorakis should've been considered for the best player award last year, as he was the best player on the best team in EURO 2004, outplaying Zidane, Figo and others. As far as Ginola - I would really like to hear a good argument for him. Well, he was so dam good, that he couldn't even make French NT for any of the major tournaments over the last 10 years and the last time he played for France, they couldn't even qualify for the World Cup in 1994 mostly because of him. And his amazing play in 99 led his team to unprecedented 11th spot in the Premiership. Yeeehaaa! And next season Tottenham managed to get a sensational place in TOP 10 (10th place)! Amazing stuff. I am still shocked as to why none of the big clubs wanted to even give him a chance when he was so great I mean even his scoring record (7 total goals over 2 seasons 98-99 and 99-00) is so good, that only that alone should've made him the biggest transfer ever. Right?
I have only ever seen one guy wearing a Beckham RM jersey in TO. But I do see a lot of RM jerseys nowadays. Roberto Carlos seems to be one of the favorites on both RM and Brazilian NT jerseys. You attend York University? What are you studying? I went there for an Indian and a Middle Eastern (belly dancing) party once. Needless to mention that I wasn't looking for guys with football shirts on.
I never said Beckham was ********...read my earlier posts. I said he is good enough to play for RM. This is nauseating.
and what makes u think that asians would choose race over quality? this is a preposterous comment and people in this forum shd stop commenting on races and their choices.
well...if there are good european players and good south american players, i would definitely choose a good european player. i mean would i choose ronaldinho or get a gerrard shirt? i would definitely get gerrard...he's much more appealing
I don't want to discuss this 'Beckham was the best player in the world' further, which is as shocking a statement as I have heard. However, I just want to say that you are ignoring the fact that Ginola was voted the player of the year in England followed by Yorke and Beckham wasn't in the picture. It wasn't Ginola's fault that he was playing for Tottenham. I agree that Beckham showed great character in coming back after the flak he received in England due to his WC debacle.
I am not saying all Asians do that, but you cannot deny that some do. Just look at Bracer028's post for evidence. It is indeed preposterous but it's existence cannot be denied. I am no fool to suggest that it is only prevalent amongst Asians...it still exists everywhere, one evidence being those deplorable monkey chants. Anyways, apologies for bringing this up. It is better left alone. I have edited my earlier post accordingly.
Yes and no. Gerrard is prettier than Ronaldihno, definitely , but Ronaldihno is the better player, so it should be a little of both. Let me see how I break this down. There are many "details" to think about when tring to make a statement on this, for example: women. Women have started getting into the sport a hell of a lot lately, and for women looks are important in this sense (no, I am not getting "machista" here, I know plenty that told me they went to see soccer games to see Zamorano getting his shirt off, or "Baggio's great legs"), as well as status, perphaps even more than play. By status I mean what Beckham has, which isn't just looks. He sells in a big part due to his marriage with the Spice girl which put him in the tabloids and that type of gossip press that women are they main readers of. Beckham is all over the place because of his social life, so he sells more than anybody because this greatly outweights his fame due to his playing skills. When we look at those two, Gerrard and Ronaldihno, their sales have nothing to do with that. Dihno I'd say sells more, even though I can't confirm it with links, on one hand because he is at a club that has a bigger penetration in the market than Liverpool (this you can find, they are higher on the list last time I read it), more marketing resources (money), and because he has been chosen the Fifa WP and is the best player in Brazil, the top NT there is and the most famous name in the sport (even more than Real Madrid, way more). Now, for Gerrard to match him in equal grounds, he has to match Ronaldihno, move to another club, win a WC and belong to an NT as succesful as Brazil, get a FIFA WP, and perphaps be Brazilian and "exotic" (this sells a hell of a lot also, let me explain this later) in other markets like the European, or...be like Beckham, marry another Spice girl, have affairs, show up late at night partying at discos on the beach, you know, the works. In this case, however, missing this last part (as they are both missing it), I do think that people would prefer to buy Dihno's shirts (and I think they do). Has nothing to do with color (in spite of how white and pretty Beckham is), but marketing. If not, why the hell do European club presidents go buy foreign whenever they can? why does a man of "color", Brazilian etc... of doubtful skills find a job in foreign clubs so easily, while similar local player types always complain about being left out for no reason?. Think about it: what would have taken Raul when he was at his peak to be named the FIFA WP if his name would have been "Raulihno", let's say? and don't laugh, you know that this is very realistic and very true. Image does play a big roll, but in this case it is either marketing (Beckham), or most of the time "color", that helps get people get somewhere in life in this sport. However, different "colors" sell in different places, another "detail" to take into account. There is nothing really racial about this last statement. There is an old French saying that says that "the grass is always greener on the other side of the border" or something like that. It's just the way the market is. European's prefer what is "exotic" to them, as Asians do, and in this case Europeans have the money and resources to drive the market, as Asians are getting to these days, so what do you think will sell the most?, shirts from people that are not European or Asian, unless they are properly and overwhelmingly marketed like Beckham's using those very same resources. If you look into how the buyers in these markets may feel about purchasing one or the other, thinking logically it might be that Europeans consider the Brazilians' "exotic" and therefore likeable purchases over European's themselves, while Asians have a choice: European or Brazilian, and they go for the British European because of historical ties (colonization, Commonwealth, the EPL has logically been there on TV for decades, etc...), which does help Becks a lot, and Owen (#2 in Asia). In Europe though, I'd bet that Dihno sells more than Gerrard, and must sell quite a bit in Asia as well as being that he is the better player and the most prominent in the world right now. You see, it is not so easy to just say "oh, this one should sell more because he is of this color or that color", I don't think it works that way. This is what makes me think that people would buy Dihno's shirt over Gerrard's, even though they will definitely buy Beckham's over either ones. All of the above are just a few of the things that tell me that it is not so easy to just blame "color" on one player's market success over the other, or say that he should be selling more than the other based on color alone. There are too many things to consider.
very well said...but i just don't agree with you on the exotic stuff...acutally its more of a question...europeans think south americans are exotic? with ronaldinho's teeth and ronaldos?
Why is it shocking, considering that in 99 Beckham was second best in FIFA world player of the year voting, losing only to Rivaldo, got the Best European Player honors , and best player in Champions League ? As far as the Premiership - I already told you one of the reasons for him not getting th high honors. It was considered "cool" in England to critisize Beckham for pretty much everything soccer-related after the 98 WC, and many people just couldn't make him the best English player after he ruined their World Cup hopes.
What is with you and physical features? Judge them on their skills. I think what is captivating about Brazilians is their liberalism, lack of secernment and the general fun way of life more than anything else.
They could look like Klingons if they sell, as our club presidents show over and over and over again. Of course I don't speak for the Ronaldo's and Dihno's we have, but for the other 200 of them all over the place, adding Argentinians, Uruguayans, that whole lot of not so very good players nobody will ever convince me that we couldn't find similar in 2nd or even 3rd divisions. For those who are gonna come up now and tell me "oh no, they are bought because we are good, we are just born better than you", don't make me give you the story of Leganes with their 12 (was it 14?) Argentinians and where they ended up two years ago, or start giving names and the humongous list of meaningless foreigners that we have in our teams through every division and country in the whole continent. It is a given that Ronaldo is Ronaldo, and Dihno, and Adriano, and a very nice list of another 10 players, maybe 4 or 5 Argentinians etc..., but we are talking hundreds here. It is the nature of the market: a foreign signing will always look better in any type of club (except Bilbao, these are special and prove this point I am making year after year, very, very well. We just don't listen). It will sell more with the fans, it will sell more to the club, and on paper (the politics of running a club, having to deal with shareholders, competition for administrative positions etc...) it does much better for the buyer, as it shows how far he would go to bring reinforcements. Plus, from 3000kms away they all look great, there are less questions asked I am sure, less doubts. Append "Brazilian" to somebody's name, a few "hnos" to it and you are set. It's just the way it is, and it's our fault, not theirs.
Gee, you haven't met Sevillians haven't you So, European Clubs sign Brazilians because of their personalities....damn. I guess Real keeps Ronaldo because of his cute smile, in spite of his constant lack of discipline and fitness, not to mention how he matches his teammates in effort...no, he is here because he scores! what else? Romario, leaving girls pregnant, not showing up for training or just showing up late, or his problems with coaches, teammates, press....personality? liberalism? Maradona? oh wait, he is Argentinian....I guess their personalities leave much to be desired.... ...and of course, Europeans are uptight, racist and close minded, that's why they get so many Brazilians in their clubs, they add the "spice", the "flavor" that we don't have.... What a mind opener my friend.