When does winning start to matter?

Discussion in 'Youth & HS Soccer' started by NewDadaCoach, Feb 16, 2020.

  1. SuperHyperVenom

    United States
    Jan 7, 2019
    Not too much off topic: Does anyone know if DA does equal time and if so what age does it stop?
     
  2. sam_gordon

    sam_gordon Member

    Feb 27, 2017
    I know U16 DA does NOT do equal time. Call up any DA and you should be able to see game stats.

    I think equal time as a rule goes out the window when you get into a travel program. At the recreation level (any age group) equal time is/should be mandatory. BUT, even at the travel level, it must be difficult for coaches to play kids enough to keep the parents happy (if the parents aren't happy, they'll pull their kid and there goes that money).

    As to the original premise of the thread, while winning a game might "matter" in the moment, I don't think it truly matters until professional. Look at it this way.. take the best player on the team. He takes a ball to the head or impacts the ground or another player in the head. He's a little shaken up, but passes the concussion protocol on the sideline. It's the second time it's happened in a week. Do you put him back in the game? If your answer is "yes", then winning the game matters. If your answer is "no", then you're worried about the player (and therefore development). What do you think?
     
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  3. mwulf67

    mwulf67 Member+

    Sep 24, 2014
    Club:
    Chelsea FC
    Come on guys, can't you read sarcasm when you see it? Funniest post in a long time...
     
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  4. CoachP365

    CoachP365 Member

    Business Metrics SC
    Apr 26, 2012
    Winning doesn't matter. I think how you lose matters.

    Kids know if they're getting blown out, and it's hard to keep that fun week in week out, even at the younger ages. I think its important for coaches in that case at u6-12 to give them chances to win outside of the scheduled games.

    Setup practices so that they get a chance to win at stuff. Value what they're good at - keep "score" by how many times they do something that you are coaching in practice. If you're a possession coach, how many times to they keep the ball as a team more than 10 seconds/string 3 passes together; if you're a direct/ball winner how many loose balls did they get to 1st, how many shots did they have; or just how many times did someone use their weaker foot, or do some move you worked on, or nutmeg the other team. Go for ice cream if everyone takes a shot with both feet or some other "team" goal. Get them to come up with how you're going to measure "success".

    This is where having a model that you are coaching towards helps - if you just see the game as 11 random 1v1s it's going to be a long season and most likely short tenure unless you are getting all the January - March birthdays. You can show progress towards goals outside of the W/L record.

    If you've moved beyond inhouse, look at the lower division for a friendly, or scrimmage a younger team. DOn't be afraid to self relegate to a lower division - if the kids can execute in practice but not against your league opponents, get to the level where they can execute - no necessarily win all the time, just lose playing the way you want them to play.

    A friend took over the team we coached after I got bumped up to coach my older kid, they rarely won from u10-u14. He never lost a player, and had kids turn down spots on the A team to stay with hhim. He made it fun but still taught them stuff, mostly it came down to a lack of a goal scorer/relative age effect. When the birth year change hit, all his Feb-May born kids that were good technically suddenly found themselves beating teams that lost all their Aug-Dec kids, and about half his team are playing as juniors/sophomores in HS.
     
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  5. mwulf67

    mwulf67 Member+

    Sep 24, 2014
    Club:
    Chelsea FC
    Are you shocked I am not shocked this is your answer?
     
  6. ppierce34

    ppierce34 Member

    Aug 29, 2016
    Fort Wayne, IN
    I think we've swung too far to the "winning doesnt matter" end of the spectrum as it now appears to be taboo if you care about winning. I agree that its age specific but for some kids, rec and travel are all they are going to ever play so what are they developing for? To them and their parents a U9 tournament means everything.
     
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  7. jvgnj

    jvgnj Member

    Apr 22, 2015
    I agree. Too often it's presented as a binary choice between "development" or "winning" when there's a lot of real estate between the extreme versions of both.
     
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  8. bigredfutbol

    bigredfutbol Moderator
    Staff Member

    Sep 5, 2000
    Woodbridge, VA
    Club:
    DC United
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    This is fair.
     
  9. pu.ma

    pu.ma Member

    Feb 8, 2018
    Agree. I believe coaches should be enablers. It all starts in training. Find ways to make it fun and fast paced. Know the players enough as individuals, coach accordingly, and keep cheering them on. The better trained team often wins anyway.
     
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  10. sam_gordon

    sam_gordon Member

    Feb 27, 2017
    I was assistant coach for my older daughter's rec soccer team (so 12-13 years ago). I had never been really exposed to soccer before that, so I'll admit I did a lot of "side line" coaching.

    But, what other sport (youth or professional) is it frowned on to yell instructions (from the coach) to players while they're playing?

    Heck, basketball and football coaches (at all levels) routinely are stepping on the court/field.
     
  11. sam_gordon

    sam_gordon Member

    Feb 27, 2017
    OP, something to keep in mind when your son gets up to HS level games is how he LOSES could have as much impact to a scout as how good his skills are.

    Is he the type who keeps trying when you're down 5-6 goals (heck, even 3)? Does he just give up? Does he berate team mates for making mistakes? Does he own up to mistakes? Does he go for the "cheap" foul because he's frustrated?
     
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  12. mwulf67

    mwulf67 Member+

    Sep 24, 2014
    Club:
    Chelsea FC
    Baseball, maybe? Limited knowledge, on my part, to be sure…but I didn’t recall a lot of coaching, yelling instructions from the dugout much at any level…but like I say, limited knowledge and I could be way wrong…
     
  13. sam_gordon

    sam_gordon Member

    Feb 27, 2017
    It's been a while since I've watched a game, but yelling "go home", "turn two", "ONE!" (for a base to throw too), etc I don't think would be out of normal.
     
  14. bigredfutbol

    bigredfutbol Moderator
    Staff Member

    Sep 5, 2000
    Woodbridge, VA
    Club:
    DC United
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Both of those sports are MUCH more coach-driven than soccer. In football the coach can literally call every single play on both sides of the ball. Basketball courts are small enough so that the coach can be heard by most players most of the time, and there are ample timeouts.
     
  15. mwulf67

    mwulf67 Member+

    Sep 24, 2014
    Club:
    Chelsea FC
    Yeah, those things seem normal, typical…but are those things really coaching? Are these kids really waiting for these instructions before acting, or is the coach just yelling out things that are going to happen anyway? Wouldn’t it be odd for a baseball coach to coach his players though every pitch will at bat? Isn’t it more expected that baseball players figure things out on their own…certainly at bat, maybe a few shifts or instructions between pitches, now and again, but once the ball is in play, is their really time or need for any actual coaching?
     
  16. sam_gordon

    sam_gordon Member

    Feb 27, 2017
    I agree with both of your points. But how do those refute the "let the kids play", "they have to learn to decide what to do", etc, etc, etc.
     
  17. sam_gordon

    sam_gordon Member

    Feb 27, 2017
    It's only at the very U-littles that I've seen soccer players waiting to be told what to do (and not often then).
     
  18. Backyard Bombardier

    Manchester United
    United States
    Jun 25, 2019
    Winning matters when the parents who are writing the checks believe it matters. If that's U9, then its U9.

    If a team is struggling the parents of the better players will shop their kids around, and of course will always find someplace willing to cash their checks. If a team is winning big and a achieving roster spot is viewed as an accomplishment, that coach can literally turn kids away if need be.
     
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  19. NewDadaCoach

    NewDadaCoach Member

    Tottenham Hotspur
    United States
    Sep 28, 2019
    It's an interesting point. So you could say as the age groups rise the emphasis on winning rises... but within each age group you also have different types of games within a season (reg seasons vs tournament) with different levels of emphasis on winning.
     
  20. NewDadaCoach

    NewDadaCoach Member

    Tottenham Hotspur
    United States
    Sep 28, 2019
    I guess where it gets iffy is when a coach is yelling instructions but they are poor instructions. Like when a coach yells "pass it!"... when there's no one open. I hate that. It just confuses the kid.
     
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  21. NewDadaCoach

    NewDadaCoach Member

    Tottenham Hotspur
    United States
    Sep 28, 2019
    If I recall correctly there are 1st and 3rd base coaches who's job it is to do just that.
     
  22. sam_gordon

    sam_gordon Member

    Feb 27, 2017
    Those are OFFENSIVE coaches. The coaches for the defense are in the dugouts.
     
  23. NewDadaCoach

    NewDadaCoach Member

    Tottenham Hotspur
    United States
    Sep 28, 2019
    ohh gotcha
     
  24. Terrier1966

    Terrier1966 Member

    Nov 19, 2016
    Club:
    Aston Villa FC
    Baseball has a tremendous amount of downtime during which communication is not distracting and quite often a base runner cannot see the play behind them so they need in-play direction.

    So, base coaches will confirm the number of outs, offer cautionary advice such as “half-way in the air” or proactive advice such as “two outs run on anything” during the pause between pitches.

    But, a third base coach uses his or her arms to provide direction during the play more than yelling to provide direction.

    One baseball example would be that coaches don’t yell “swing” as their batter is at the plate...that the other team will yell “swing” to distract the hitter could be considered “proof” that yelling is not helpful to somebody trying to do something.
     
  25. sam_gordon

    sam_gordon Member

    Feb 27, 2017
    I have seen plenty of baseball/softball coaches and parents yelling "instruction" during live ball. Runner on 1st, less than two outs, ground ball hit to short or 2nd... "Go two!" or "Second" or "Turn two!".

    Runner on 2nd, fly ball to the outfield, once the ball is gathered "Three" or "Four" for what base to send throw to. And I'm not referring to U-little games.
     

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