It is ridiculous because it is based on an unnatural division. We do fine in USA forum with USA Men and USA Youth: age-based. Cut/dried. If the simple solution doesn't work, then by all means throw upon us the ridiculous contortions which are making the forum ugly, difficult, and thus not worth following.
Youth isn't necessarily age based - Freddy Adu was discussed plenty in the main forum, even before he "graduated" to the full team. Youth vs full internationals is just an easier animal. No one is throwing anything on you - we are inviting discussion and suggestions and silly hyperbole makes it harder for me to understand what your issues are.
If you don't like my suggestion to split things up based upon national team play then please feel free to come up with something better, because a sub-forum that exists for discussion of a USMNT WC scorer named Julian Green and a homesick teenager named Boxi Yomba makes very little sense.
We think we did come up with something better - and it always used to be those two players in the same forum - what's the big deal? Part of my liking keeping guys like Green and Agudelo back a bit is because it becomes a YA event when these guys get to graduate to first team action. Something to be celebrated. Green is a bit of a special case, and I also deliberately kept him here in part to generate discussion about the split.
I'm agnostic on Green/Agudelo and the managers. In the larger picture, I like the overall split between academy players and senior players.
I'm not sure I get your point. The analogy wasn't an identity. I'm merely suggesting a non-arbitrary and clear line, so that age, rather than moderated analyses of club position, can easily direct users to places to find information and discuss yanks abroad.
It appears that the only event surrounding a guy graduating is the ongoing debate over when exactly a guy graduates. Maybe that will change in time. But, for now, it's kind of annoying.
I don't see why the rules should be bent to "celebrate" this "graduation" of Agudelo and Green. Green's played first team minutes before for Bayern Munich in a competitive game. There really should be no discussion. By rule, he qualifies for the other forum. If players without a club go in the academy section, then maybe Agudelo should stay there, but Johannsson who's playing in the Eredivisie was kept in the main forum, and Agudelo's played most recently in that league, so why not just keep him there? It doesn't seem like many of the professional in the second tier leagues are being put in the academy section. It just seems like a divide between professionals and youth players, so if thats what its going to stay as, then Agudelo definitely belongs in the other forum.
When the requests started coming in for us to add a new forum age was considered, although I can't remember now if we talked about it here on the site or if I just thought to myself. Anyway, it was never a strong candidate. It seems like a more awkward and impractical way of doing this than the one we've chosen. Sure, everyone understands age, but how many of us know how old a player is with any certainty without going out of our way (e.g. to a wiki site or some other resource specifically for that purpose)? It's discoverable, but it takes extra effort, beyond that that's expended on knowing a player's club status, which posters on this site are already doing out of their interest in players. Movement to first team status is something that posters in this forum have always paid attention to and news about that arises directly from the events we follow simply as fans of the game. It's also motivated by events on the pitch and in the club house. Movement from one side to the other of an age-based split would be based on a new type of search that we (and by "we" I mean the wonderful posters who do most of the heavy lifting on this site) don't already do here in YA. I'm not really interested in going out of my way to track down a player's age, and a player's age tells us nothing, directly, about his status with his club. As for moderated analysis of a club position: that refers to the dividing line that falls along league level, right? Yep, that's a bit awkward. But here's why we went with it: It was generated by the same problem that led (partially) away from a split along geographical lines. The problem we were trying to solve is that threads people were interested in were being driven deep into the back pages of the main forum*. Geographical splits either preserved that problem (eg Europe vs the rest of the world would have one over-crowded forum and one barren one) or created a new one (eg "countries with top leagues" vs "other countries" would generate potentially rancorous debates about which leagues were "top" and it would eliminate some of the cross pollination from one country/hemisphere/world of soccer to another that we moderators think is one of the more valuable aspects of YA). So targeting a split along league levels within countries seemed a better solution, while not a perfect one, by any stretch. It again is motivated by events within the game and it seemed to solve the traffic problem. That's why we went with it. But we know it's not perfect. *Why is that a problem? Because the forum streamlining devices based in your account can't really fix it. And because it makes browsing (and the serendipity that comes from it) less pleasant. One can always enter a new forum directly, either through "my forums" or bookmarks on your browser bar.
That's fine. I think it is flawed and silly, although it has an admirable taste of bureaucratic complexity. Long live the administrative industrial complex. Anyway really at the end of the day, I'm just a customer who is - and I know this is a mere anecdote - hardly using the forum that I once went to several times a day for information and discussion. Thanks.
Dude - I think your hostility for BigSoccer bureaucracy maybe misguided. We resisted making a split - and I've already said I don't love splits. I freaking hated the USA Men N&A Split at the time and I'm still not sure I love it. This was driven in part by requests by users and it seems many people don't hate it to the degree you do. Bungadiri covered it, but just to echo the point, how the heck would we figure out the birthdays of every player on Dave's list and then who the heck would act on promoting each and every thread at their birthdate? The age split just isn't practical even if we wanted to. Our imperfect solution is meant to capture what you have requested - for the most part it's about youth and academy players vs. full fledged starters, which is how many people think about it. It's just a much easier way, as Bungadiri said, to manage a split - as promotion to the first team is usually a seminal moment for players and it's what we all follow and get excited about. While I realize not every idea will work for everyone and you may just hate it regardless, I appreciate you blasting us in the open for comment phase. But seriously, if you are coming less because of the split, can you put your finger on why? Just seems less appealing because you now have to track two forums instead of one? Would you do no split at all as a first choice? I can definitely appreciate that, but I also think it's mostly the same as it's always been, but just organized in a way that you can find certain discussions a little easier than before and in a way that I think makes sense along the lines of what you I think wanted to achieve with an age split. But then again, I did drink the company kool-aid...
I know - they are a couple of Renegades. [If you can't come up with a better pun, my motto is to go obscure.]
Well, it does seem frustratingly arbitrary in certain ways. For example: - Emerson Hyndman is a teenager playing in the 2nd tier in England, and his thread goes in the regular YA forum. - Ariel Lassiter is a teenager playing in the 2nd tier in Sweden, but his thread goes in the Academy forum. And I'm still not sure I understand why...
"Forward, new forum made!" Was there a man dismay'd? Not tho' the poster knew Some Mod had blunder'd: Theirs not to make reply, Theirs not to reason why, Theirs but to post and ... sigh: Into the YA Academy Forum Crept the half dozen. Dedicated to the Noble Half Dozen! {I could probably rework all the stanzas if I had the time.}
Well - the thinking (which is certainly open for debate) is that 2nd tier in Sweden is more like 3rd division in a top soccer country and 3rd division in say England, would be Academy level.
I'm generally supportive of subforums within YA, but I do think it's confusing to include players/people who clearly aren't academy players -- managers (Bradley), free agents with extensive pro and USMNT experience (Agudelo), and adults playing at low levels -- in the YA Academy subforum. I think it would help to reduce confusion and consternation to tweak the policy or change the name of the subforum.
Definitely open to suggestions to both. We didn't intend "Academy" to strictly mean Academy players, so maybe that name needs elaboration since it is confusing.
I have to ask....Why are Freddy and Bob Bradley in different forums? That makes no sense. Bob is and has been a high level coach. He is in a superior position to Freddy in a league that is arguably superior to Freddy's but BB has been retained in the "academy?" Complete disrespect of BB, IMHO. And, I should also ask, why is assistant coach Cherundolo retained in the YA forum and not with BB in the academy?
The placement of coaches in the Academy forum is not an act of derogation. It's thematic: instruction happens in academies, and coaches instruct. As for the Cherundolo thread, we're getting to that. I've only had it brought to my attention recently and I've been traveling for a while. I'm not going to move a thread using my phone. I also wanted to check before doing anything, to see if the thread included then-current references to 'dolo's playing days. If it does, then we'll need to pull out the coaching stuff for its own thread, since 'dolo's player threads stay in the YA regular forum. That's even less something I want to do on my phone.
Wasn't a subforum made to make the other one easier to navigate? Because of this new policy, maybe demotions can be added? There are going to be a lot of players who appear in 1 or 2 Copa MX matches or 1 or 2 cup matches with some average European team.
I think everyone will survive until you can get to a computer and do this at a time that makes sense for you.
You may need to explain your point better or my fellow mods may have to explain it to me since I'm the one with the good looks.
Sorry about that. If you go back and go through the YA archives, you will find that there are tons of players most people don't even currently know of that played a game or two in Copa MX. If you keep it this way where a player gets promoted for playing a cup game, which are much easier for younger players to get into than league games, it'll probably be harder to navigate the main YA forum since there will be so many players that aren't really players of much importance to track taking up tons of space in the main YA forum. Thats why I'm suggesting demotions. How about if you get promoted for playing in a cup game and don't appear in a league game within the next 12 months, you get demoted?
Well - one thing we agreed in the beginning (I believe) is that we wouldn't be doing demotions because it just becomes a headache to manage. But I hear you - I wouldn't be against league games be part of the requirement, but on the other hand, if a kid has a place with Arsenal in their cup games, that seems promotion worthy to me. @bungadiri @Friedel'sAccent