What's up with this new forum?

Discussion in 'Yanks Abroad Academy' started by dark knight, Aug 14, 2014.

  1. dark knight

    dark knight Super Moderator
    Staff Member

    Dec 15, 1999
    Club:
    Leicester City FC
    Oops sorry that was my fault - I shouldn't have limited it to youth players so I think a 25 year old playing third division in England would stay here. There is no age requirement - it's all about achieving the right level. I'll edit that post unless the other mods disagree.
     
  2. bungadiri

    bungadiri Super Moderator
    Staff Member

    Jan 25, 2002
    Acnestia
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    No, that's fine. I think it reflects the consensus among the original group of discussants.
     
  3. TimB4Last

    TimB4Last Member+

    May 5, 2006
    Dystopia
    The new forum should really be titled: "DMN & Associates' YA Academy."
     
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  4. afgrijselijkheid

    Dec 29, 2002
    mokum
    Club:
    AFC Ajax
    Not sure why Bradley was moved here. Though he is not playing in the field sense, he is managing (another form of playing, technically) with the top flight first team.
     
  5. Smithsoccer1721

    Smithsoccer1721 Member+

    Feb 16, 2007
    Middle of the Table
    Club:
    Columbus Crew
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Bradley is in the Academy section but the YA players he is in charge of are not. hmmm
     
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  6. bungadiri

    bungadiri Super Moderator
    Staff Member

    Jan 25, 2002
    Acnestia
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Keep in mind that the primary motivation for the split was the fact that high traffic was limiting the accessibility of some threads: There were too many threads in the main forum and it was making it difficult to use. We discussed a range of rationales for splitting the forum, while trying to answer the "does it make sense" and "does it solve the traffic problem" criteria simultaneously. As it turned out, there was no perfect rationale. Options that answered the "sense" question well didn't solve the traffic problem, and vice versa. For example, dividing the forum along geographical lines seems to make sense until we start trying to draw the boundaries. Coming up with a balanced number of threads in each forum would have required old and new users alike to memorize the constituent countries/leagues for each forum (or consult labels at the top of the forum), established according to the numbers of threads rather than geography. In our first pass a this idea, we learned we'd have to parcel out European leagues to different forums to achieve balance: a Europe vs the rest of the world division would have been lopsided,* etc. That seemed to generate as many problems (via being confusing) as it solved.

    The Academy vs Regular distinction allowed us to move a practical number of threads out of the main forum for a reason that was replicable almost everywhere. I think it's also true that there is strong interest in players who are still developing, which makes us hope that the Academy forum will be a vital place, just as the regular forum is.

    Coaches' threads were targeted for the academy for two reasons.
    1. The traffic/accessibility issue: we wanted to make sure there's a balance of high/medium traffic threads across the two forums.
    2. Coaches and player development go together. Obviously, that only works if you don't push it too hard. Coaches and lots of things go together, including players on the first teams of top flight leagues. So the primary motivating factor was #1.

    What was not intended? That moving coaches' threads to the Academy is a kind of demotion. We expect good discussions to happen in both forums, and value the contributions of posters in either place equally.

    Finally, if this solution to the traffic problem turns out to be unworkable, we're willing to consider changing it.

    *When I counted the first 40 threads in the old main forum, only two were not from Europe.
     
    Winoman, dark knight and TimB4Last repped this.
  7. TimB4Last

    TimB4Last Member+

    May 5, 2006
    Dystopia
    As long as I can't find the thread I'm looking for I'll be happy! :)
     
    chad repped this.
  8. Smithsoccer1721

    Smithsoccer1721 Member+

    Feb 16, 2007
    Middle of the Table
    Club:
    Columbus Crew
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I personally love the split. It cleans things up nicely. I just wonder think putting the coaches with the rest would make sense but I understand the reasoning behind the decision. If I didn't complain it wouldn't be BigSoccer
     
    dark knight repped this.
  9. dark knight

    dark knight Super Moderator
    Staff Member

    Dec 15, 1999
    Club:
    Leicester City FC
    That's my goal when I'm sending all your threads to the recycle bin!
     
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  10. dark knight

    dark knight Super Moderator
    Staff Member

    Dec 15, 1999
    Club:
    Leicester City FC
    Like we've said, it's not set in stone so we can revisit this question as it's the main complaint I think we've seen so far. I'm pretty surprised we haven't gotten a lot more complaints!
     
  11. jeffmefun

    jeffmefun Member

    Apr 26, 2001
    Quakeland, CA
    Club:
    Seattle Sounders
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Bunda - thanks for the explanation.

    I'm not sure why making the thread counts in each forum balanced was an objective, as long as the overall goal was traffic reduction. No matter how you slice it, there will likely always be a forum that's a clear winner.

    Putting coaches into the Academy forum stretches the limits of the name "Academy" as it still bears a requirement of an explanation around the exception. So, I'm not sure that it's any better than memorizing the constituent countries, etc.

    Also, assuming that the YA pool will continue to grow (hope or assume?), this division may not scale well, either.

    The nice thing about a geo-based distinction would be that you could follow a player, coach, and prospect for a single team in a single forum.

    What other geo-based divisions did you consider? UK / Scandinavia / Continental Europe (yes, Denmark is both that and Scandinavia...) / Rest of World? UK / Germany / Rest of Europe?
     
  12. bungadiri

    bungadiri Super Moderator
    Staff Member

    Jan 25, 2002
    Acnestia
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    #62 bungadiri, Aug 26, 2014
    Last edited: Aug 26, 2014
    1. We were looking for something approximating balance--or at least reducing the number of active threads in the main forum enough--to make each forum easy to use relative to the (then) state of affairs. The objective wasn't equal distribution, per se, so if one forum has more active threads than another but both are still relatively comfortable to use, then that's fine.

    2. From a moderator's perspective, telling a newbie (for example) that all coaches' threads go into the academy forum is simpler than explaining that we've got England, Germany, etc. in one forum and All non North American Western Hemisphere leagues plus Scandinavia and a few other odds and ends in the other. I think our posters will find it concomitantly easy to remember coaches/Academy, too. Again, the logic is questionable: coaches do more than teach young players, but it's not like coaches' threads are hidden.

    3. The YA pool will continue to grow, I hope. But it seems to me that the set up we have now might be better suited to handling it than others. For example, there will be a permanent, automatic solution to explosive growth in the Academy, in that some players will move on to the regular forum. Sure, if we experience significant growth in both forums and they both get unwieldy to the extent the former regular forum was unwieldy, then we'll have to consider a new set up. Might be a great problem to have. On the other hand, maybe we'll see the maturation of MLS into a solid destination league that keeps most of the best domestic players in the States, resulting in far fewer YA. Might also be a great problem to have.

    4. We noodled about it briefly, but the complexity of making a decision and then being called upon to explain it seemed way more difficult than competing options. Plus the idea of having two global YA subforums is more appealing than having geographically subdivided ones.

    In any case, we're listening and we're willing to reconsider the current set up if some serious flaw is exposed. But we went into it knowing already that the regular/academy split was imperfect. So far, it also seems practical, though, and I haven't noticed any threads that ought to be front and center having difficulty being front and center. We'll need the full flow of the regular season to provide us with a real shake-down cruise, though.
     
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  13. jeffmefun

    jeffmefun Member

    Apr 26, 2001
    Quakeland, CA
    Club:
    Seattle Sounders
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Not sure I follow this assumption of geographic ignorance or inability to read for context among our esteemed user base, but then again, I'm not a moderator!

    To be clear, I was actually suggesting more than just 2 forums... I was suggesting 3 or 4 to start. I agree, splitting it up into 2 forums with non-explicitly descriptive titles would be suboptimal.

    Again, thanks for taking the time to explain, follow up, and moderate in general!
     
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  14. Balerion

    Balerion Member+

    Aug 5, 2006
    Roslindale, MA
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    In the discussion that led up to the creation of this subforum, the primary argument against a geographic split is that the Europe section would be almost as overwhelming as the main YA forum is now. There just aren't as many YAs in Latin America and for various reasons the kids in Mexico, on average, get less coverage/interest/posts than kids in Europe. And a forum for YAs outside of both Europe and the Americas would get almost negligible activity.
     
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  15. bungadiri

    bungadiri Super Moderator
    Staff Member

    Jan 25, 2002
    Acnestia
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I don't think you have to assume ignorance of geography. You just have to count the variables in play and then extrapolate from that the number of differing opinions about where the geographical lines should have been drawn. There are lots of very reasonable ways of cutting it up, each of which carries its own reasonable counter arguments. This is simpler. It's not perfect, but our hope is that it doesn't have any unanticipated consequences that make it impractical.

    Also, if I remember the discussion correctly, we had some consensus around the idea that the geographical and cultural mix in the main forum as it was originally constituted was what provided many YA users with a reason for liking it. A non-geographically based split preserves that.
     
  16. FC Tallavana

    FC Tallavana Member+

    Jul 1, 2004
    La Quinta
    The fact that this forum is the place to come to for a thread on a guy who scored one of the best goals of the World Cup for the USMNT as well as one about a homesick teen named Boxi Yomba makes me think this setup wasn't thought through very well.

    A better way to keep things organized might be:

    YA USMNT
    YA YNT
    YA Other NT
    YA All Others
     
  17. UxSxAxfooty

    UxSxAxfooty Member+

    Jan 23, 2003
    Rochester, NY
    Club:
    Colorado Rapids
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I didn't see what the problem was before that this new division is supposed to be solving. It's just added more clicks to my browsing routine.
     
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  18. chad

    chad Member+

    Jun 24, 1999
    Manhattan Beach
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    This division is ridiculous. Either do it based on age or country, but the current "standard" is stupid.
     
  19. bungadiri

    bungadiri Super Moderator
    Staff Member

    Jan 25, 2002
    Acnestia
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    As noted before, YA has always been kept distinct from the US team discussions.
     
  20. FC Tallavana

    FC Tallavana Member+

    Jul 1, 2004
    La Quinta
    Just because something has always been done a certain way doesn't mean that it is a good idea.
     
  21. dark knight

    dark knight Super Moderator
    Staff Member

    Dec 15, 1999
    Club:
    Leicester City FC
    Not sure what we're supposed to do with that comment. So I'll just say that just because it's always been done a certain way also doesn't mean it's a bad idea. Contrary to your comment - this has been thought out carefully - whether it's been "well thought out" I guess ymmv.

    I disagree though that your suggestion is an improvement - perhaps you could expand on that. It's already been discussed that Green could go in the main forum if that's your primary concern.
     
  22. dark knight

    dark knight Super Moderator
    Staff Member

    Dec 15, 1999
    Club:
    Leicester City FC
    More details about what makes it ridiculous and why your proposed standard is better would be appreciated.
     
  23. dark knight

    dark knight Super Moderator
    Staff Member

    Dec 15, 1999
    Club:
    Leicester City FC
    We'll that's the rub with any division and I definitely hear you on this point since I was resistant to the original split which I think the overwhelming majority would agree has been a good idea. Either way, you have to click on more links to get to page 2 of YA or worse run searches which involve multiple clicks!

    The forum has gotten busy to the point that if you have to head a few pages in to find current discussions we feel it makes sense to organize further. Like we said - this is a trial that isn't set in stone.
     
  24. bungadiri

    bungadiri Super Moderator
    Staff Member

    Jan 25, 2002
    Acnestia
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Let me put it this way, then. The ability to talk about YA as members--current or potential--of the national team already exists on this site. It always has. I understand that there are some members of the site who are interested in YA only or overwhelmingly because of the role they do or might play with the team. I tend to fall into that camp myself, actually. I am far more interested in those players who do or might one day represent the US.

    However, the original purpose of this forum was to provide a look at US soccer that was broader and from a somewhat different perspective than that served by the national team forums. That's a perfectly valid interest that will be served less well (and perhaps not at all) if we begin organizing the YA forum according to NT perspectives. Equally to the point is the fact that it's at least interesting that a player who performed well, if briefly, for us in Brazil is still not getting first team minutes with his club (and therefore still in the Academy forum). I think it's valuable that the new forum structure highlights this.

    In short, I think there are very valid reasons to not allow logic based on the national team to co-opt YA. It's been considered and rejected in the past. It was considered and rejected again. This is not merely an instance of the tyranny of tradition.
     
    TimB4Last, dark knight and TheFalseNine repped this.
  25. ebado

    ebado Member

    May 2, 2008
    I think this goes against the spirit of Yanks Abroad. These forums are about their club careers. Some specific national team comments come and go, but the focus of these posts is clear. What matters here is their club career, not their national team career.

    And yes, it's the best way to handle it. This section is about American soccer players abroad. All of them. Not the USMNT.
     

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