What's the true derby of brasilian soccer? flamengo-fluminense? flamengo-sao paulo? do they have a true national derby or only local derbys in rio or sao paulo?
the graet derby is Grenal. Gremio x Internacional; Flamengo x Fluminense; Palmeiras x Corinthians; Atlético-pr x Coritiba. If u like an european style u gonna love Atlético-Pr x Coritiba and Grenal. if u like good soccer u gonna love Atlético-MG x Cruzeiro, but if u love passion u gonna enjoy yourself with Flamengo x Fluminense. If u like matchs with unexpected things just watch Palmeiras x Corinthians or São Paulo x Corinthians
is it true that a true national brasilian championship started in 1971? and maybe that's why brasil doesn't have a true "national" derby but local derbys like flamengo x fluminense, palmeiras x corinthias. I think fluminense has won the most local (Rio) championships, and Palmeiras has won the most local Sao Paulo championships... if you start counting since the beginning of the local tournaments in the 1910's. Please feel free to correct me. In mexico they have a true national derby (america of mexico city vs. chivas of guadalajara) but then again the derby in argentina is two teams from buenos aires (river x boca)
No pingudo, it is why here we have lots of big clubs and all this clubs have lots of fans! yes our first national championship was in 1971, but before that there were played other tournments!
Brazil's national league started in 1971. There was a Brazilian championship before that but I'm not sure what kind of format was used. The state championships were always as important or more important than the national championship. Local derbies are always going to be more intense in any country. Flamengo x Vasco is the biggest derby in Rio and probably in Brazil.
At one time Fla x Flu was very well known around Brazil, Corinthians x Palmeiras was big also. Nowadays it's more of a regional thing. Paysandu x Remo is no doubt the biggest one in the northern region.
Actually, outside of Rio, FlaxFlu is much more famous. Entertainment wise, I go for Atletico x Cruzeiro though.
As far as Flu, I think you're right. But Corinthians has the most Sao Paulo State Championships last I checked. 32 years is a good period of time to establish some nice derbies. However, as you mentioned, derbies are usually local affairs anyway. I think that stems from the fact that local teams play each other a lot more (as in the state champ. and the Brasileiro), so maybe because Corinthians doesn't play Flamengo that often, it's hard to establish an identity to that game. It's not a match that has enticed a whole nation and put some things on the line for both sides.
Yeah, with its recent abysmal attendence.. I'd take Cruzeiro - Atletico any day these days. I think because the main teams from Sao Paulo, with Santos as the lone exception, Rio and Rio Grande Do Sul are kind of sucking this year, so when they play each other, it's strictly bragging rights, there's not a significant spot on the standings at stake. Also, after Juventude's triumph on the Copa do Brasil a few years back, it somewhat paved the way for smaller clubs to shine a little more than they had before. Paysandu was just a provincial team until this year, so was Sao Caetano. One of the most underrated derbies is Macéio's "Clássico das Letrinhas"(the letters derby, because both teams are better known by its official name's abbrev.) between CRB and ABC.(or whatever letters it is, I always forget my dyslexia doesn't help much)
To me, there is no one rivalry that is bigger than the others. There are so many that it's hard to label one as bigger than all the others. This isn't like Mexico, where nothing will ever supercede América vs. Guadalajara. There are so many reasons this rivalry is so big. If I had to choose one rivalry in Brazil, I'd take Cruzeiro - Atletico Mineiro, even though most people outside of Brazil are more familiar with the Rio and Sao Paulo clubs.
Due to the size of the country and the distances between the States, it was very difficult to implement a national league throughout different regions. When the Campeonato Brasileiro was created, in 1971, there were more than 20 state leagues established, most of them founded in the first decades of the 20th century. Natural rivalries were born from each team being in the same State Championship, many of these by nothing more than geography. Along the years, regional tournaments were created and, with them, new rivalries, eventually evolving to national ones, specially in the Brasileirão. I think the same happened in Argentina. State Championships still exist and provide a unique opportunity for many teams to play and win. In fact, they are more important than the second and the third national leagues. There is not a national derby. But in terms of historical meaning, Fla-Flu is the most important.
There's no such a thing There's no a national derby. However, sometimes in a period of time two teams from different states became too strong that end facing each other many times in finals (or semis, quarters, etc). It happened in the 60's with Pele's Santos and Garrincha's Botafogo. In the 70's, Internacional (with Falcão, Figueroa, Dario, etc) faced Cruzeiro (Raul, Nelinho, Palhinha, etc) many times, including the 1975 final and a Libertadores semi-final. In the early 80's, Flamengo and Atlético-MG made many great games, including 1980's final. Flamengo was a machine (Zico, Andrade, Nunes, etc), and Atlético were always chasing the title with Reinaldo and others. In the early 90's, I think the derby was Palmeiras (Roberto Carlos, Rivaldo, etc) vs Grêmio (Jardel, Emerson, etc). Many matches, Felipão and Luxemburgo, two great teams. That's, of course, IMHO. Alexsander.
Fla x FLU is the game ! It's difficult to choose a game and say that it's the most important of Brazil. We have an endless list of big teams in our country. Derbies here tend to be local, I mean, each region have one or two derbies. For instance, Rio de Janeiro have got 2 derbies: Fla x FLU and fla x vasco. São Paulo have 2 derbies as well, such as Palmeiras x Corinthians and São Paulo x Corinthians (I would include Palmeiras x São Paulo too). Rio Grande do Sul, there is one derby only. That's Gremio x Internacional. In Paraná, I would choose Atlético-PR x Coritiba. In Minas Gerais, Atlético-MG x Cruzeiro. But, historically, Fla x FLU is the most important game. It envolves a lot of passion, feelings, anger, love, envy, sin... It's something beyond comprehension. It's difficult to explain. This year, I took 2 german friends to Maracanã to watch fla x FLU. In the first 11 minutes of the first half, FLUMINENSE had scored 3 times, and the match was FLU 3 x 0 fla (approximately 60.000 people were in the stadium!!). My friends were flabbergasted, completely astonished with the joy that we were and how we celebrate our goals !! They said: "It's impressive! I've never seen something like this! This is the biggest match of Brazil, isn't it?" They really enjoyed being at Maracanã. Certainly, it was an experience not to be forgotten! Fortunately, FLUMINENSE won that match. It ended FLU 3 x 0 fla.
Re: Fla x FLU is the game ! It also involves one of the most celebrated causes of derbies in the sport, the class struggle between the teams of the aristocracy (flu) and the people (fla).
Great posts all. Let me put a word in for Bahia - Vitoria. I went to see it once (the last year Bahia was a 2nd division team), and the atmosphere was fantastic! Lots of ladies, rhythm and and Axe I´ve been to 5 Fla x Vasco and always wear a color other than one of the teams...too many opportunities to get your ass kicked....its gotten too intense. Tchau
Re: Re: Fla x FLU is the game ! Yes, that's true! For those people that didn't understand, FLUMINENSE's supporters are from a high level of the society, from the aristocracy part. On the other hand, flamengo's supporters are from the "mass", they are usually from low level of society. It's certainly a wonderful derby! If you have the chance (and lucky, also!) to come to Brazil and watch fla x FLU, do so! Don't miss it! It's an experience not to be regreted!
Re: Re: Re: Fla x FLU is the game ! Yes, you're right. There's no match like Fla x Flu. It's the game I most enjoy going to the stadium to watch it.
Its really a matter of opinion as to which is the biggest rivalry. Of course people from Rio are going to proclaim Fla-Flu as the "Most Important" but that is only from their view point. Out here in Minas Gerais we couldn't care less about Fla-Flu. I'm sure the same goes for everywhere else in Brazil. There was a time, all the way up to the early 90s that the Fla-Flu game received national broadcast...but not anymore. Mainly because neither club is as good as they were during the 80s. In terms of passion and quality of football I would have to say the best rivalries are Atletico Mineiro-Cruzeiro and Gremio-Internacional. The reason being that in both cities,Belo Horizonte and Porto Alegre there are only 2 big clubs. In SP and Rio they have 3 or 4 big clubs, and the supporters are divided by 3 or 4. But in Belo Horizonte and Porto Alegre, the supporters are only divided in 2. Add to that the fact that they are both LARGE cities and their respective clubs are LARGE nationaly respected clubs and you can imagine the rivalry that exists in those cities!! The only other city that comes close to this is Salvador with Bahia-Vitoria...but neither one of those teams are as good as the ones from BH and PA.
Oh, and I have to mention why we don't have a "national" rivalry. Simply put, it is because we have too many good teams. Plus, we have too many large rivalrys in the country. Just look at the different opinions in this thread regarding Brazil's biggest rivalries. Nobody can agree on just 1. But our rivalries are mainly regional...more specificaly between clubs within the same city. Back in the 80s my club, Atletico Mineiro and Flamengo were always meeting in the final game of some competition...yet we were never rivals of eachother. We were bitter enemies-still are- but were never rivals because we are from different cities.