What % of development is at club vs at home (ie on their own)?

Discussion in 'Youth & HS Soccer' started by NewDadaCoach, Nov 4, 2021.

  1. bluechicago

    bluechicago Member

    Nov 2, 2010
    Club:
    Chelsea FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Only if the dog is kitted out and has shown an awareness of the ball! o_O
     
    MySonsPlay repped this.
  2. bluechicago

    bluechicago Member

    Nov 2, 2010
    Club:
    Chelsea FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    The end is always rough, watched mine finish a week or so ago. Now if I can just convince her to play professionally....

    She seems to think starting her career is better than dad subsidizing her for a few more years, crazy right?
     
    bigredfutbol and MySonsPlay repped this.
  3. NewDadaCoach

    NewDadaCoach Member

    Tottenham Hotspur
    United States
    Sep 28, 2019
    I believe here in CA there is also middle school soccer. But where I grew up in the midwest the didn't have it. Guess it just depends on the particular school.
     
  4. NewDadaCoach

    NewDadaCoach Member

    Tottenham Hotspur
    United States
    Sep 28, 2019
    Any coach of 7 yr olds needs to understand kids. It seems like the grassroots teachings do a decent job of guidelines for youth.
     
  5. NewDadaCoach

    NewDadaCoach Member

    Tottenham Hotspur
    United States
    Sep 28, 2019
    Yeah, it seems to me that kids who have older siblings seem to benefit by getting touches and having to be challenged and "play up". A lot of these younger siblings are really good.
     
    MySonsPlay and bigredfutbol repped this.
  6. MySonsPlay

    MySonsPlay Member

    Liverpool FC
    United States
    Oct 10, 2017
    Not so bad, but my oldest did give me a call at the end of the game to make sure I was okay, not his brother. This was a bonus season, youngest finished his degree in May at a DI Patriot League school and a solid soccer career, found a graduate program and was able to play due to the Covid eligibility extension.

    Hope your daughter considers all her options and good luck.
     
    NewDadaCoach and bigredfutbol repped this.
  7. TheKraken

    TheKraken Member

    United States
    Jun 21, 2017
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I credit our trampoline for a lot of my kids' athletic abilities. They would be on it for hours, every day between the ages of 5-12. Once they got older, they didn't use it as much, but that constant jumping did wonders for their leg muscles, coordination, and balance. I would throw the ball into the trampoline and my son would head it back while jumping. We'd throw footballs in and they'd make diving catches. If your kids do any kind of gymnastics then it's a no-brainer for that kind of stuff too.
     
    bigredfutbol repped this.
  8. bigredfutbol

    bigredfutbol Moderator
    Staff Member

    Sep 5, 2000
    Woodbridge, VA
    Club:
    DC United
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    My wife and I once befriended a pro player from my wife's home country (Bulgaria) who had had a decently successful career, and was the son of a player who'd been very successful in the old country (my wife, who's not a huge sports fan, remembered the father's name from her childhood). We asked him for advice with our own son, and he told us that when he was a kid, his father signed him up for gymnastics first, before any soccer/football. His father believed that starting with a year doing basic tumbling and so forth was an essential foundation for future success in any sport.
     
    NewDadaCoach repped this.
  9. In the Netherlands we have all amateur clubs taking in kids at 6, including pro clubs like Feyenoord and Ajax. These kids arenot invited as you say. Kids really want to play for Feyenboord and Ajax/PSV/AZ so that too many apply. So there's each year a "selection" round/exhibition games where those kids can show their skills and then get picked out to become member of the club.
    It's just a matter of what's on offer to pick from. The real selection takes place at affiliated amateur clubs, where the coaches see among their kids ones suitable for the top pro clubs and than inform them to have a look.
     
    NewDadaCoach repped this.
  10. saltysoccer

    saltysoccer New Member

    Tottenham Hotspur
    United States
    Mar 6, 2021
    #85 saltysoccer, Nov 20, 2021
    Last edited: Nov 20, 2021
    I'd like to understand better what you wrote above. Are you saying amateur clubs are taking in kids by application at 6 or pro clubs as well? Also, are you making a distinction between "invited" and "picked" if the kids are selected (or not) from exhibition games and tips from amateur club coaches to become members of a pro club like Ajax?
     
  11. upload_2021-11-21_14-12-2.png



    First of all I have to point at a property of Dutch amateur clubs that engage in competitions. These are almost all foundations (Dutch: verenigingen) membership clubs. The only exceptions I know are clubs for individual sports like martial arts clubs, which most of the times are the property of someone. The amateur soccerclubs are all non profit foundations, which are run by the members. As much as can be done on the grounds is done by volunteers to keep expenses as low as possible.

    So amateur soccer clubs are community oriented organizations and as such welcome all kids to become members.

    For each kid there’s a team fit for their capabilities, there’s no selection, nobody is left outside. Once a kid is in, the process starts to evaluate in which team his/her capabilities fits best.

    Another property of Dutch amateur soccer clubs is that these are all ages clubs. Old ages teams most likely have players who entered the club decades ago as a kid. Many stay member at a reduced fee as non playing members, as these clubs are in fact a community you belong to, not an entity you pay to provide a consumer product.

    Not sure what you mean.

    So let me explain what I ment.

    As you can see from the announcement of the Feyenoord talents day, any kid can take part. They are “evaluated” from the matches organized on that day with teams put together from the kids who registered in time. So actually a very rough basis to select a kid from. The real selection takes place after the kids who made it into the Feyenoord Academy from those talents days in training and in the KNVB matches. After a year most kids are told they cannot be part of the club any longer. That’s the difference with the amateur foundation clubs. The professional clubs themselves decide who can be part of it and who has to leave, which is of course essential for a professional development institution.

    When one talks about “invited” or “picked” it indicates a clear view of the capabilities of the kid in question. That’s not the case with the kids from the talents days. Two days watching kids play with team mates they never played with only gives you a rough insight, so I wouldnot call that “invited” or “picked”.

    Another matter is for the kids coming from other amateur clubs. These kids are recommended by professionals, who’s business is the coaching of kids to standards set by the Dutch FA, the KNVB.

    So when the Feyenoord (or AZ, Ajax, PSV or other pro club in the Netherlands) get that notice, they come and watch the kid, more often on several occasions and decide on that whether they should invite the kid to make the move next season. In this case I do approve of the use of “invited” or “picked” by the pro club.


    https://www.feyenoord.nl/academy/talentendagen

    The 2021 Feyenoord talents days announcement gives as birthdays Januari 2009 until December 2015.

    Geef jong talent op voor de Feyenoord Talentendagen!


    Veel jonge jongens dromen ervan om ooit voor Feyenoord uit te mogen komen. Feyenoord Academy biedt een groot aantal talenten de kans om een plek in de jeugdopleiding te verdienen op de jaarlijkse Feyenoord Talentendagen. De Feyenoord Talentendagen worden dit seizoen gehouden op maandag 22 en dinsdag 23 februari 2021.


    Jonge voetbaltalenten (jongens), geboren tussen 1 januari 2009 en 31 december 2015, mogen zich die dagen op Varkenoord tonen. De voetballertjes zullen worden beoordeeld door de jeugdtrainers en scouts van de Feyenoord Academy. Aanmelden kan tot en met 1 februari 2021 door op deze pagina gegevens van het jonge talent door te geven.


    Voetballertjes die in aanmerking komen om deel te nemen aan de Feyenoord Talentendagen ontvangen half februari een persoonlijke uitnodiging, met daarin aanvullende informatie over het programma tijdens de dag.

    computer translated:

    Give up young talent for the Feyenoord Talent Days!
    Many young boys dream of one day being able to play for Feyenoord. Feyenoord Academy offers a large number of talents the opportunity to earn a place in the youth academy at the annual Feyenoord Talent Days. The Feyenoord Talent Days will be held this season on Monday 22 and Tuesday 23 February 2021. Young football talents (boys), born between 1 January 2009 and 31 December 2015, can show themselves at Varkenoord on those days. The footballers will be judged by the youth coaches and scouts of the Feyenoord Academy. You can register until 1 February 2021 by providing details of the young talent on this page. Footballers who are eligible to participate in the Feyenoord Talent Days will receive a personal invitation in mid-February, containing additional information about the program during the day
    .

    Amateur clubs in the Netherlands have kids as members while these arenot yet able to play in KNVB competitions, which starts with U8 teams.

    See the club tables I copied.

    You also see the membership fees are quite low compatred to what P2P in the USA charge.

    upload_2021-11-21_14-14-58.png

    The club that delivered several players for the Feyenoord Academy and from there to the Feyenoord first team and Orange squad. These membership fees are common for most clubs:
    http://www.zwartwit28.nl/rdam/club/algemeen/contributies


    upload_2021-11-21_14-16-10.png

    First of all you only get coaching and training with the use of the pitches and locker rooms and your competition matches organized via the KNVB. That's all.
    All clubs are foundations (Verenigingen) and as such independant legal entities, run by the members of the club.
    So travelling, outfits etc. arenot part of the product.
    The bigger a club, the more they get in from membership fees.
    And the most important thing is that the clubs are depending on their members doing all things in the club as volunteers, many of them as non playing members. They do it for the love of the club, being part of the community. Dutch amateur clubs arenot for profit.

    This is the club with the largest number of football members, almost 2000:
    https://www.quick20.nl/ledeninfo/ledenadministratie/

    upload_2021-11-21_14-17-17.png

    Wat krijgt een Quick’20-speler?

    • minimaal één keer per week training (tweede training gaat in overleg)
    • wedstrijdkleding verstrekt door de vereniging (shirt, short, kousen, wedstrijdpak en tas)

    Leeftijdscategorieën
    Hieronder volgt een opgave van de leeftijdsgroepen van onze jeugdafdeling in het seizoen 2020-2021. De peildatum is 1 januari t/m 31 december per leeftijdscategorie.

    upload_2021-11-21_14-17-49.png
    This club does supply the match gear

    There are clubs with multiple sports that have over 6,500 members like Kampong (Malayan for village).
    https://www.kampongvoetbal.nl/lidmaatschap

    upload_2021-11-21_14-18-43.png
    Of course the more sophisticated the grounds and buildings are, the more expensive a club gets
    Kampong ground:
    [​IMG]
     
    NewDadaCoach repped this.
  12. sam_gordon

    sam_gordon Member

    Feb 27, 2017
    I wish I could understand Dutch to find out what the break downs are actually for. As I understand it, here are the various things our club fees go to (in no particular order):
    • Coach's stipend/salary
    • Field Rental
    • Referee Fees
    • Director of coaching
    • Other board members(?)
    • Equipment for coaches (balls, pennies, cones, etc)
    • Field equipment (possibly-- nets, goals, corner flags, field paint)
    • Registration with USYS
    • State Association Registration
    Somewhere on this site is a link where you can put in the name of a non-profit and find the financial reports. I'll see if I can find it.

    DW & I were talking yesterday. We just started with a new club. This club has a single fee for every player. Our old club had a registration fee, then assessments through the year based on what leagues/tournaments the team participated in. Obviously the registration fee is higher with our new club, but we don't have assessments. The total cost between the two is pretty similar. The new team however is going to Florida for a National Showcase, and have applied for the Jefferson Cup. Does the fees put out by just our players cover that or are younger players (who don't participate in "big name" tournaments/showcases yet) offset some of our cost?
     
    NewDadaCoach repped this.
  13. The breakdowns you see are the fees for the different age categories of the members and the kind of football they play.
    O14 etc = U14.
    Senioren = seniors
    Zaalvoetbal= indoor football
    etc.
    The breakdown of costs and revenues are only available to the members as these have to approve the chosen board plans and the annual financial accountability.
     
  14. CornfieldSoccer

    Aug 22, 2013
    Would love to know more about how the money is pent in this setup, too. In the Dutch arrangement, is there more reliance on volunteers (knowledgeable volunteers?) because soccer has deeper cultural connections and importance?

    One of the more constant gripes I've heard from other parents over the years was about pay for coaches. Some always seem to assume coaches are getting rich, others seem to wonder why they are paid at all (which I never understood a bit -- you want people who know soccer to be the coaches but think they should give their time and expertise away?).

    BTW, in Sam's breakdown, he mentions compensation for board members -- the board is paid? The club my son played for the longest and the one I actively helped with didn't pay anyone aside from the DOC, ADOC, coaches and one PT office worker. Board members, including the president, were all volunteers. We didn't even get a discount on dues. The same was true for those most involved in running the twice-yearly tournaments (which were a load of work for the 8-12 of us most deeply involved).
     
    NewDadaCoach repped this.
  15. Volunteers do as much as possible jobs on the grounds, like maintenance, bar/restaurant/cafetaria duties, administration etc.
    It's not a soccer thing, it's common in all team sports like field hockey (very big in the Netherlands), cricket, baseball etc.
    Community based clubs are a Dutch cultural trait, cooperate for the common good.
    I think it's a side effect of the centuries fight against the threat of the waters. It was cooperate or drown. So it's engrained in the Dutch mindset.
     
    NewDadaCoach repped this.
  16. sam_gordon

    sam_gordon Member

    Feb 27, 2017
    In my defense, I put a question mark after board members because I didn't know if they got paid.

    The clubs I'm familiar with, the fields actually belong to the city, so they do the mowing/general upkeep. I think the clubs do the nets and line painting
     
  17. ThePonchat

    ThePonchat Member+

    #ProRelForUSA
    United States
    Jan 10, 2013
    I've Been Everywhere Man
    Club:
    Columbus Crew
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Keep in mind all, communities and sponsors help soccer/football around the world. Sometimes it includes tax money supporting part of operations (like facilities). On top of this money is training compensation and solidarity payments, which USSF refuses to acknowledge other than MLS benefitting. The rest of the world doesn’t pay youth coaches like the US decides to.

    This isn’t because it’s part of the culture more, but they don’t feel the need to pay major money for U8 coaches. Heck, even in bigger clubs the pay can be $100/month for good coach salary. Now, this isn’t the top division clubs, but big enough clubs.

    That’s also why it’s a “club.” Everyone has a role. Youth to adult. Everyone does something. Clean. Take out the bins. Make the tea. Shine the boots. Etc.

    The average club around the world is 200 players, from youth to first team. So, it’s manageable. None of these “super clubs” of 5000-15000 kids in them cashing in. It’s truly a club where players are supported. There’s always a spot for a kid to play, can just look at the next street over to potentially find a spot to make a team.
     
  18. CornfieldSoccer

    Aug 22, 2013
    That's comparable to the pay the coaches (outside of the DOC and ADOC, who were full time and did a lot beyond coaching) were paid at the club I referenced. Most were college students.

    I've heard of taxes helping fund clubs in other countries -- one of those coaches spent his childhood in Argentina and said his local club was supported in part by taxes. It's hard to picture that happening here.

    Re Sam's reference above to facilities, that was always one of the biggest expenses for my son's old club. We couldn't afford our own fields and rented space at a complex owned and maintained by the local parks department, and they did the club zero favors on cost.
     
  19. bustos21

    bustos21 Member

    Aug 13, 2004
    NJ
    Club:
    CA Boca Juniors
    Nat'l Team:
    Argentina
    Aren't public high school sports supported by taxes?
     
  20. NewDadaCoach

    NewDadaCoach Member

    Tottenham Hotspur
    United States
    Sep 28, 2019
    I'm sure our coach makes quite good money coaching, even though it's not his full-time day job. BUT... after seeing many other youth coaches (as a comparison)... I really do believe our coach is likely one of the best youth coaches in the country. Not only does he knows the game very well, but he is also great with kids. It's a perfect mix. Their soccer IQ is years ahead. Things they are learning for example - how to press (if 9 presses who covers the passing lane), if fullback makes a run the 6 covers, when to play negative, building from the back, checking your shoulder...etc... these are 7 yr olds... I mean, I didn't learn this stuff in HS soccer. And yes these kids are having a lot of fun. So, yeah, I guess the saying "you get what you pay for" I would apply here and I have no problem with our coach making good money.
     
  21. sam_gordon

    sam_gordon Member

    Feb 27, 2017
    Not fully.

    Our booster clubs are responsible for paying for:
    * Uniforms
    * Equipment (nets, balls, etc)
    * Away game transportation

    The schools pay the coaches and field maintenance.
     
    CornfieldSoccer and ThePonchat repped this.
  22. ThePonchat

    ThePonchat Member+

    #ProRelForUSA
    United States
    Jan 10, 2013
    I've Been Everywhere Man
    Club:
    Columbus Crew
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    This. And even then, it’s still only four years of it. Additionally, it’s not like anyone knows how the funding is down for it anyway. It all goes into a pot for “education” and divvied up after that.

    From my background, the general average is 5-10% (closer to 5%) of a school district’s budget goes toward athletics.
     
  23. CornfieldSoccer

    Aug 22, 2013
    Similar here. Our team gets a budget and the boosters fill in what that doesn't cover -- extra money for slightly nicer-than-basic uniforms, socks (not covered at all, which blows my mind), food for road games, the equipment you mention, ...

    My inner thin-skinned soccer parent kicks in when I think about what the football program has to spend. Football's a more-expensive sport and there's no realistic way for the boosters to be able to afford helmets and pads, but my son's soccer team wins and the football program at his school definitely does not (though the football boosters did hire someone to do a hype video for their winless team). I don't think the basketball parents are spending any of their own money, either, beyond shoes, but we live in basketball country and the program at least has some history of success.

    I'm getting off my soap box before I fully unload. I have a raft of grievances about field access, the football coach's insistence that a new turf field lined for both sports and the weight room adjacent to it are "his," ... I am not a bitter sports parent, I am not a bitter sports parent, ... ;)
     
    sam_gordon repped this.
  24. TheKraken

    TheKraken Member

    United States
    Jun 21, 2017
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I really like this type of club mentality. I think clubs here do so little community outreach and it hurts their big picture. It's thought of as a bunch of rich kids, so why do they need help? What is lost is the player base and how we can promote the best athletes to excel in their given sport.
     
    ThePonchat repped this.
  25. Well, dunno if my impression is skewed, but most of the times there's talk about clubs in the USA, it's almost always aimed at a specific age group, like P2P aims at children. Over here the clubs are, as I mentioned before, all ages clubs. So there's a continuity in clubs as most members stay that way from kid to geriatric. So the clubs as such became embedded in their environment.
     

Share This Page