What Now, Baltimore?

Discussion in 'Baltimore' started by Sherman_Peabody, Apr 10, 2011.

  1. Sherman_Peabody

    Apr 19, 2010
    Maryland
    Club:
    DC United
    That's a very good question. I think many soccer investors ask it backwards; that is "My team needs to draw 7K to be successful, how come it's drawing only 5K?" Let me suggest phrasing it as "If we draw only 5K per game, at what level should we play?"

    Bunnies bring eggs? Do the chocolate ones bring the Cadbury creme eggs?:)
    Seriously though, leveraging off the Blast is a really good idea. With indoor carrying the winter and an outdoor team in the summer, brand equity can build all year. Player contracts get easier -- retain the best, while putting "probationary" players on half-year contracts. There are a lot of upsides here. The only downside being the stadium. it's time to consider how much a privately funded, minimal stadium would cost.
     
  2. CFL-fan

    CFL-fan Member

    May 1, 2006
    Maryland
    For the crowds that will attend a USL-Pro team in Baltimore, Loyola is fine. If the team is affiliated with the Blast, Kevin Healey is a Loyola alum.

    The team should budget for 1.5 K in attendance the first 3 years. What is the last area soccer team to average more than that number?

    I think it was the Maryland Bays when their home field was at Cedar lane in Columbia around 1990-1991.

    This is what I mean about checking the past. Why would you think you can average 5K when the last team to do so was the 1972 Phase II Bays owned by Jim Karvellas and they played an international only schedule.
     
  3. Sherman_Peabody

    Apr 19, 2010
    Maryland
    Club:
    DC United
    I agree. While we're at it, let's check the present as well. What's a reasonable ticket price for an outdoor pro soccer team? Elizabethan (circa 1640) theatre in England had a rule that the minimum ticket price (general admission/standing only) should equal the cost of a pint of ale.

    We shouldn't expect fans to be willing to fork over more for a soccer match than they would for an evening out at a mid-priced eatery. By my lights, that's somewhere around $12.00 a ticket in Baltimore.

    The number doesn't particularly matter -- it's the principle that's important. The ownership group shouldn't loose sight of the fact that they are asking for completely discretionary income.
     
  4. CFL-fan

    CFL-fan Member

    May 1, 2006
    Maryland
    I think $12 is a reasonable price.
    What is the annual budget for a USL-Pro Team? Is $500,000 per season in the ballpark?

    If the average ticket is $12 and the average attendance is 1,500 that would be $216,000 in ticket revenue for 12 home matches. With the current state of the game in Baltimore, I can't see much coming from sponsorships. My guess is a new team should be prepared to lose $1 Million over the first three years. By the 4th year attendance would have to approach 3k per game to continue.
     
  5. jakcfl

    jakcfl Member

    Mar 5, 2007
    Maryland
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Agree with you both! Ownership should be willing to set a reasonable price both to allow for casual fans to experiment with a game as well as to earn word-of-mouth publicity by having larger numbers of people attending then if ticket prices were in the $20 range. I'd rather have 2000 people at $10 bucks a head then 1000 at $20. The extra thousand mouths to communicate what they saw to their friends, hopefully positive, is something you can't buy.
    As far as a stadium why not build in segments BUT have the plans and infrastructure elements done up front. Say you build one grandstand with 2500 seats along one sideline. Cap it off with press facilities and a roof to cover the seating area. Concessions and restroooms behind the grandstand. Scoreboard and locker rooms, with team offices on the second floor, at the end opposing the entrance to the stadium. Plans already drawn-up for expansion of the facility when warranted. Add 1500 to the end opposing the locker rooms first if the situation merits. Then add 3500 to the opposing sideline if that becomes necessary. During initial facility construction all future wiring/plumbing is already laid underground. The sideline opposing the initial grandstand is then used as a picnic/entertainment area until that sideline needs to be utilized for stands at which point the picnic area is moved in front of the locker rooms. This way you can start with a facility sized to your realistic needs, but it already has existing infrastructre ready for expansion lessening the future construction time and possible upset to your playing schedule.
     
  6. CFL-fan

    CFL-fan Member

    May 1, 2006
    Maryland
    I like the idea of their own ground but that would mean much higher start-up costs. I don't think you could buy the land and build a 2500 seat facility for the cost of 3 seasons rental at say Loyola. From my scenario, I think investors my decide to go with the stadium idea if the team is a go for the 5th season. To my knowledge only Toronto FC and possibly the Columbus Crew had their own stadia before they played their first match.
     
  7. Green and BLue

    Green and BLue Member+

    Seattle Sounders FC
    Nov 3, 2003
    Republic of Cascadia
    Club:
    Seattle Sounders
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Columbus played for at least three years at Ohio State's football stadium before Crew Stadium opened. TFC & Phily started off with their own stadiums, although Phily played a few home matches at the Linc before PPL Park opened.
     
  8. Smoke & Mirrors

    Jul 18, 2010
    Club:
    Ft Lauderdale Strikers
    Nat'l Team:
    Germany
    This. Look no further than the Strikers this year to see this idea in action. Obviously the revival of the Fort Lauderdale Strikers brand played a huge role. But do you know the single most important factor that piggy-backed on that rebrand? Ticket prices. The club sold season tickets for $100 a piece through March. Reserved seats on the sideline are $15, and general admission in the corner and behind the goal are just $10. On opening night they reserve seats for $10, same price as general admission, and sold them out. They've run specials, such as two general admission tickets and a voucher for two drinks (soda or water) for $15.

    They've done all of this with the same philosophy as you're talking about - do whatever it takes to get people in the gate for the first time. Then you have to provide the gameday experience to get them excited enough to come back. The Rowdies game that was rained out Saturday had the reserve seats sold out, but this time it was at regular price (besides the season ticket holders of course). This is the kind of result you want to see from your efforts.

    With all the specials and factoring in the difference in price between reserved and GA, let's say the team averages $10 per ticket. So far they're averaging 5,422. This number will most likely be higher by season's end, but for now we'll use it. So 5,422*11 is 54,220*14 home $759,080 in ticket sales. Now, because of all the discounts on the ticket prices, you have a lot more people in the stadium buying concessions and merchandise. Don't know how to guess at those numbers. In in the end, as long as you're providing a good gameday experience, you've got that word of mouth, bring your friends to check out this exciting yet affordable entertainment in play with far more people as well.

    All of this hinges on one thing though - willing and able to make some sacrifices up front to reap the rewards on the back end. The Strikers may just have spent more money to promote themselves leading up to this season than Miami FC spent in total over five seasons. But I think it's still been conservative spending. Putting a float in the city's centennial celebration parade. Hosting the jersey unveiling at the Hard Rock. Paying some Hooters girls to be Strikers girls at the stadium and these events. They had one billboard up on 95, but I think it's come down now. A few ads at the Sun-Sentinel online site.

    The point is they haven't broke the bank, but they did enough to get the word out. And now they're able to sit back and rely upon very low cost or even free ways to keep the buzz going. Facebook page and Twitter accounts are updated constantly, same with the team website. They gave free t-shirts to every season ticket holder. They've sold a lot of team jerseys judging by how many I've seen at the games. When we fans wear our gear around town, we're giving the team free advertising.

    And then you have the fun and excitement the fans who have been at the games so far go back out into the community and spread on their own. The Strikers came through in a major way to make up for the rainout last Saturday. So many loyal fans came out and braved the monsoon until the game was finally called, the team announced that for every ticket purchased, you could redeem it for two tickets to the make up game. Do you have any idea how packed Lockhart is going to be on June 29th even though it's a Wednesday?!? I have five season seats, plus I bought two general admission tickets to Saturday's game for two of my kids' friends that came with us. That means when I redeem my ticket stubs, I'll have my original five season seats, plus nine GA tickets in my hand. Last year I wouldn't have had trouble giving away one free Miami FC ticket, let alone nine. I already have takers on all nine of those tickets, and could easily have found more. And these people would be perfectly fine paying $10 each for them if they had to!

    I really think the other teams around lower level pro soccer that don't pull the kind of numbers they'd like to should give Tim Robbie a call. Honestly, there is no excuse for NASL teams not to. This philosophy is going to have the Strikers in far better shape financially at the end of the season then the teams charging higher prices, not advertising, and seeing less than 2,000 people coming into their stadiums. I'd love to see Baltimore get some investors in place that would be willing and able to attempt this kind of model in 2012.
     
  9. Sherman_Peabody

    Apr 19, 2010
    Maryland
    Club:
    DC United
    I've been away for a bit -- sorry. Where were we? Oh yes! we'd established that a men's outdoor pro soccer team can expect to draw between roughly 1 and 3 thousand souls per home game in Baltimore. We'd also established (I believe) that an average ticket price for said team should be around $12.00 per seat.

    That gives us an estimated cash flow of between $12K and $36K per week. Split the difference, and you have a break-even operating income of $24K per week. Yes, this doesn't count concession revenues, jersey & gear sales, sponsorship revenues, and the like. It's prudent not to count those things.

    So... the question becomes: "Which level team can be fielded on a cash flow of $24K per week?" It seems to me D2 is a bit of stretch with those kind of numbers. Obviously, if the ownership group wants D2 (let's say that's NASL for now), they will need to find some way to make up the difference between $24K/week and the nominal cash flow D2 demands.

    One more thing -- I believe an SSS of their own is vital to the team's success. I don't think renting a stadium is a credible option. I'm convinced that the stadium gives the team its sense of "place". That sense of "place" is a key component of the team's brand identity. In other words, brand identity doesn't transfer all that well. The home ground is a major ingredient in the game day experience; lack of their own space sends a strong message that the team is somehow second rate. If I were in charge, securing a home grounds that I could brand as mine would be my first order of business.
     
  10. jakcfl

    jakcfl Member

    Mar 5, 2007
    Maryland
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Now all we need to do is find someone to finance this. Ed Hale really wouldn't gain a lot from fielding an outdoor team. Might help sooth his ego to make a splash indoors & out after the First Mariner failure but not sure if it's worth his money.

    Kevin Plank and Under Armour could look to fund a team if it lead into their consumables being introduced to a new group of consumers. Under Armour makes soccer goods, but I don't think they are at the top of anyones wish list at this point. The sensor uniforms they are making for Tottenham could provide an opportunity as outfitting a Baltimore outdoor soccer team would let them test product during live matches. A USL affiliation could also give them access to all the USL leagues/teams. That said, Plank and Ravens owner Bisciotti (sp?) are more connected to the University of Maryland.

    Peter Angelos has got to be hoping that the Orioles improve enough on his watch that they can make some free agent moves to make one more playoff push in his lifetime...he isn't getting any younger. That would most likely tie-up any funding from him. As far as other people are concerned you would have to be considering people who will not likely meet the $20 Mil number for Div. 2. I know there are probably people around worth $20 Mil but I doubt they would like to enter into the, at least initially, money losing venture of minor league soccer. Not that there is anything wrong with starting in USL PRO...as long as you don't ask where the money goes ;)
     
  11. Lowecifer

    Lowecifer Member+

    Jan 11, 2000
    Baltimore, MD
    Club:
    DC United
    Nat'l Team:
    Belgium
    Someone should slap you for even mentioning Peter Angelos.

    :)
     
  12. Buffaloindoorfan

    Buffaloindoorfan New Member

    Aug 8, 2010
  13. CCSUltra

    CCSUltra Member+

    Nov 18, 2008
    Cleveland
    Club:
    Hertha BSC Berlin
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I'm guessing that's just probably in reference to Baltimore saying that they would return in 2012 when the folded up shop for this season.

    You'd think that there'd be more info out if Baltimore was really coming back. And I'd be shocked if a newspaper in Ontario scooped everyone else.
     
  14. CFL-fan

    CFL-fan Member

    May 1, 2006
    Maryland
    I'll bet they went to Our Sports Central where Baltimore and San Antonio are listed as Expansion/Inactive under NASL teams.
     
  15. jakcfl

    jakcfl Member

    Mar 5, 2007
    Maryland
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I don't think we'll hear a word of any kind about a new Baltimore outdoor soccer team until DC United makes a firm decision on relocating to Baltimore or not. Allegedly they are hoping to have decided on their future stomping grounds by the end of the calendar year. That would likely be too late for us to have a new team by 2012. I just can't see anyone putting in the money, time & effort to field a new d-2 or d-3 team only to be chased-out shortly thereafter if DC United comes north.
     
  16. Sherman_Peabody

    Apr 19, 2010
    Maryland
    Club:
    DC United
    Perhaps, but I'm not convinced DCU coming to Baltimore shuts down prospects for a D2 team. It may enhance them. MLS and NASL are at very different price points and serve different fan populations. There is also the possibility of an affiliated D2/D3 team, with the DCU reserves for instance.

    By the way, I'm not encouraged by the fact that we've heard nothing so far. That doesn't bode well. We should at least be hearing rumblings & rumor if things really were going to start up next spring. I'll believe it when it I see it, and not one minute before.
     
  17. eastcoaster

    eastcoaster New Member

    Nov 23, 2009
    It is basically 99% that there won't be any team in Balto that had previous affiliation (CP).. If someone else can come in - maybe. Since the end of season and especially since the law suit - there has been no word from the Medds at all about anything.Those guys were never short for words no matter what so they can't be planning anything... and of course if they are it won't work.
     
  18. UnitedNut

    UnitedNut Member

    Apr 29, 2001
    Towson, MD USA
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Just drove by the new stadium being built for Stevenson University today. It will seat close to 4000 and would actually be a good facility for a USL Pro or NASL team. The biggest downside to me was the distance from the Metro stop in Owings Mills--good for parking--but it would require a shuttle bus between the stadium and parking garage.
     
  19. jakcfl

    jakcfl Member

    Mar 5, 2007
    Maryland
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    the Stevenson Stadium does look nice, its five minutes from my house and would be great for me. i just wonder about how having a more western site would effect attendance. it makes any fans from the east of Baltimore or Anne Arundel County have to put in a longer drive to attend. i've always been curious if attendance would improve if the Freedom and now the DC United Women would play in a more central DC facility.
     
  20. Call me Ralph.

    Call me Ralph. New Member

    Aug 27, 2008
    New England
    Club:
    FC Tampa Bay Rowdies
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    That's because most people are idiots and are hugely prejudiced against the South. You can show them lots of evidence that the South is a hotbed for soccer, and has been for the past 20-30 years, and they'll still mouth off about NASCAR, college football, rednecks, tourists and retired people (esp. Florida), and make apples to oranges comparisons between MLB attendance vs. MLS attendance (while grossly exaggerating or misinterpreting MLS attendance record in Florida). What's missing in the South are billionaire soccer investors; the soccer fans and soccer players exist in large numbers in the South, same as in any other region of the USA. Having three of the oldest continuously run soccer clubs in the South is not an accident or an anomaly.
     
  21. DCUBayernMunichfan13

    Feb 25, 2011
    Strasburg, VA
    Club:
    DC United
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Do you guys think Ravens Owner Steve Bisciotti would be a good owner for a Baltimore team? Reason I ask is that I'm a Ravens fan and I think hes done a damn good job with the team.

     
  22. longballer

    longballer Member

    Aug 10, 2005
    Club:
    Carolina Railhawks
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Is R. Kraft a good soccer team owner? Has Lamar Hunt been a good owner for Columbus & Dallas? People will disagree, but I fear these NFL guys view their soccer properties as nothing more than loss-leaders for their broader corporate empires. So, yes, they have the buck$ but they aren't focused solely on the sport IMO. You can argue for either side.

    Has Bisciotti ever made any comments re: soccer team ownership?
     
  23. Jossed

    Jossed Member+

    Apr 23, 2011
    Club:
    New York Red Bulls
    You can argue about Robert Kraft and his apathy towards the Revs, but nothing can be said against Lamar Hunt. Without Lamar Hunt and Phil Anschutz, there would never be a MLS and soccer in the United States would be nothing more than a game foreigners play in far away lands.
     
  24. SoccerPrime

    SoccerPrime Moderator
    Staff Member

    All of them
    Apr 14, 2003
    Club:
    Real Salt Lake
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    So any news, any on pro soccer's return?
     
  25. Macsen

    Macsen Moderator
    Staff Member

    Nov 5, 2007
    Orlando
    Club:
    Orlando City SC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Keep in mind, Clark Hunt is who owns Columbus and Dallas now. Lamar Hunt has been dead for nearly five years.
     

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