What next for the Dutch?

Fabio Grosso 2006 · Aug 2, 2012

You guys were one of the favourites to take out the euro and in many eyes the favourites. How did you collapse so dismally? The first game was the confidence killer obviously but you still had enough talent and technique to overcome that. Same old in-house fighting among each other?

Anyway, not to worry as obviously your list is still very strong. I expect you guys hard to beat as usual in 2014. All is not lost. France finished near last in 2002 after going in as the reigning world and european champions. They made the qtr's of euro 2004 losing to eventual champions Greece and 2 years later almost won the world cup losing on penalties in the final. Italy this year went from finishing bottom of the group in 2010 to making the final of euro 2012. Spain were chokers for so long and now have won the last 3 major tournaments. Good teams rebound and all have shockers from time to time.

I expect you topping your group and putting up a good showing in Brazil. Who are the next up and coming stars? by the way I love Holland and you guys play the most attractive football on your day. the Dutch teams of 1998 and 2000 were champaigne.

Preston Banks · Aug 2, 2012

Thanks for your support. It's good to hear we did not lose all our good will after the last 2 tournaments. Louis van Gaal is now our national manager and nobody really knows how it will go. Will he be able to do better than his first stint as national manager? Can he handle the ego's of the star players? Can he handle is own ego?

I am confident we will be back on top level sooner or later, we always come back and good players always appear even when generations look weak. Football is our genes. In my opinion the next up and coming good players are:

Luuk de Jong (Striker) (Borussia Mönchengladbach)
Bas Dost (Striker) (Wolfsburg)
Vurnon Anita (Defensive midfielder) (Ajax)
Stefano Denswil (Central defender) (Ajax)
Jordy Clasie (Central midfielder) (Feyenoord)
Stefan de Vrij (Central defender) (Feyenoord)
Adam Maher (Attacking midfielder) (AZ Alkmaar)
Luciano Narsingh (Attacking winger) (PSV Eindhoven)
Kevin Strootman (Central midfielder) (PSV Eindhoven)
Luc Castaignos (Striker) (FC Twente)

DRB300 · Aug 2, 2012

If you look at a Spain or a Italy in 2012, what should be noticed is how the backbone of the NT is playing together in one or two club teams. For Italy it was Juventus who were unbeaten in Serie A and for Spain it was Barca with Madrid players. I thought for example that Ramos was really good for Spain. For Italy I was highly impressed by Rossi. So it was not only a good functioning backbone of players that knew each other inside out and know how to get good results, it's also that the added players were easily slid into the existing framework. This is beneficial when the existing club relationship from the dominant club (Barca for Spain and Juve for Italy) is good. Mind you Netherlands had the same setup for Euro 1996 when Ajax won the CL in 1995 and got to the final of the CL in 1996. In that tournament however anger came to a climax about the difference in payment of the white and black players at Ajax (reality was that the black players were all juniors and the white players seniors or just older). So club problems were taken into the NT and escalated. NT football quality can be improved when many players of your nation already play together at club level during the year, certainly if that club team is cruising and playing excellent football by international standards. This was a bit the same as for Netherlands in 1974, when many Ajax and Feyenoord players were already played together on club level.

My point would be that Netherlands will never get this anymore. Eredivisie clubs are financially to weak to keep Dutch top players together and let them play together until chemistry and international good results flow from it. That hurts our chances.

Another problem is that many top talents in the Netherlands are now kidnapped from the country before they hit the age of 18. Netherlands has been able to punch above their weight by their good education. The Eredivisie was also perfect for education. It's not the fastest league, but it is technical, attacking minded and young players get a chance. When players play the game, they have try to adapt to the higher level and keep good form during the games. Good passing, good first touch, good long pass, good feints etc. can be developed as Dutch clubs always go for the football solution. Don't ram the ball away, master the football solution and so young players become skillful and refine their technique a level up from youth competition (without the step being ridiculous). In foreign competitions this not always the case and on top of that, youngsters get far less chances. That's the culture. I know Neeskens posted in the past a stat she got from the Volkskrant that from the 50 or so attracted teenagers that went to England the past years, only 1 player made the first team: Tim Krul ..... a keeper, not even a real field player. All other Dutch youngsters going to EPL clubs have failed to get into that first team. Many of those talents would have been developed in the Dutch system as they did have talent obviously, but flop as they went for money and status at an early age, before really playing Eredivisie. This hurts the Dutch talent output as much of the good basis material gets squandered now by foreign clubs working their "magic"on them and don't really care if it fails. They just attract dozens of foreign kids and if 1 makes their first team, then that's still success. Counts for homegrown and no 20M transfer money.

Also Eredivisie as talent development league in the past was better (though it is still probably one of the best for that objective) as there were still some older players that created balance in a club team and gave younger players a shoulder to lean on and kept them out of the wind. Big talents that way could develop a little bit in their shadow. Now talents often have to pull the team at very young ages. Strootman for example at PSV. Was still 21 himself at PSV. Had a great first half of the season, collapsed a bit in the second half. Same for Wijnaldum.

The next problem is related to this problem. Dutch teams don't get CL experience anymore. Dutch kids at top teams in the past could get CL experience as Dutch clubs were going somewhere in Europe. This is not the case anymore. 1 team makes the group stages and crashes out. That's not good for development and experience either.

There are people claiming that where Spain and Germany for example went for more focus on technique, Dutch football education started to focus more on physique and power football and that this in the end will hurt Dutch football in a great way.

A particular problem for the Netherlands is that the most talented players are often from Moroccan and Turkish descent. A Moroccan is not able to lay down their citizenship even if they are 4th or 5th generation. Turks can, but often don't do. You have a player like Ozykup choosing for Turkey and Labyad choosing for Morocco. I think those two were talents that could have become of value for the Dutch NT. If this becomes a trend, we have a real problem. We educate players for 18 years and then 2 other FA's come along and could snitch our "Ozil". If you look at a player like Sneijder and imagine him being Moroccan and choosing for another FA, you realize that would mean the difference between a WC final exit and a WC quarter final exit. We would have to wait for a whole new cycle when especially that outlier is choosing to play for another NT.

These are some of the problems Dutch football face. I also want point to an international trend. Football is becoming more competitive internationally. Look at tennis. I was brought up with USA dominating the tour. Sampras, Agassi, Courrier. Look at them now. Their collapse in the sport has also to do with international level going up. So doing the same is not enough. You need to improve and even then it remains a hard field to compete. I see South Korea at the Olympics or Japan and China in the sport of swimming. They have made swimming their own in a short time. We can all make fun of China football, but a Dutch pundit already was quite impressed by a friendly they played against Spain not long ago. I think Japan is really evolving, also on league level. I see Kagawa, Honda. Good intelligent and technical players. I like what they aim to produce. I think Mexico (who have flirted with becoming a class team before) might start to "get it" as they play good football as well. In this field I see it becoming increasingly hard for a country like the Netherlands to ever win a WC. I think our best shots where the 3 in the past.

What is next? Dutch defense sucks. We have 3 oke keepers, but I prefer 1 world class one, like we had with van der Sar. I also don't like the new strikers. de Jong, Dost, Castaignos, Wolfswinkel. All one dimensional or poor multi dimensional players. RVP is not used correctly and Hunter idem dito. The question is if van Gaal is doing something about both cases. Both DM's in Clasie and Anita are internationally unproven. I don't know about WC 2014. Qualification maybe, but I don't see the magic in the team. Sneijder is magic and he is moving towards 30. He is injury prone and does not live like a pro. Much changes in 2 years and for Dutch NT, not for the best. It will become a "will the new generation stand up"-game.

For me the question is simple. What Dutch players carry an internationally successful club in Europe? None and the new group is still far away from achieving that if they are able to do that in the first place. I don't get my hopes high for Brazil 2014 and I have yet to see what van Gaal can do. Does he brew a team that is stronger than the sum of it's parts, or is his character resisted by the group and does he pull a 2002?

CANADA-AZ · Aug 2, 2012

Very detailed analysis above but this has been the case for as long as I've been following this--about 10 years
I do not disagree with anything said except we were and are getting results in spite of the disadvantages highlighted

This year I think we had a combination of:

1-missing about 15 golden opportunities against Denmark--the only game we really HAD to win--we lose that one and all of a sudden we are in the group of death--Van Persie and Robben to blame there
2-if we did score some goals the D does not get the microscopic attention and because it was inferior --they take the hit from everyone--but imagine if we had won the first one 3-1
3-Van Bommel just plain stunk and looked old--why he was around--father-in-law should have known better
4-its a short tournament--you mess up early you die

With the weaker D I don't think there was any chance to win this thing but we should have made the semi

I'm not as down as DRB300 on them--they will be fine and as noted we have a pretty good crop coming forward

Fabio Grosso 2006 · Aug 2, 2012

DRB300 said: ↑

If you look at a Spain or a Italy in 2012, what should be noticed is how the backbone of the NT is playing together in one or two club teams. For Italy it was Juventus who were unbeaten in Serie A and for Spain it was Barca with Madrid players. I thought for example that Ramos was really good for Spain. For Italy I was highly impressed by Rossi. So it was not only a good functioning backbone of players that knew each other inside out and know how to get good results, it's also that the added players were easily slid into the existing framework. This is beneficial when the existing club relationship from the dominant club (Barca for Spain and Juve for Italy) is good. Mind you Netherlands had the same setup for Euro 1996 when Ajax won the CL in 1995 and got to the final of the CL in 1996. In that tournament however anger came to a climax about the difference in payment of the white and black players at Ajax (reality was that the black players were all juniors and the white players seniors or just older). So club problems were taken into the NT and escalated. NT football quality can be improved when many players of your nation already play together at club level during the year, certainly if that club team is cruising and playing excellent football by international standards. This was a bit the same as for Netherlands in 1974, when many Ajax and Feyenoord players were already played together on club level.

My point would be that Netherlands will never get this anymore. Eredivisie clubs are financially to weak to keep Dutch top players together and let them play together until chemistry and international good results flow from it. That hurts our chances.

Another problem is that many top talents in the Netherlands are now kidnapped from the country before they hit the age of 18. Netherlands has been able to punch above their weight by their good education. The Eredivisie was also perfect for education. It's not the fastest league, but it is technical, attacking minded and young players get a chance. When players play the game, they have try to adapt to the higher level and keep good form during the games. Good passing, good first touch, good long pass, good feints etc. can be developed as Dutch clubs always go for the football solution. Don't ram the ball away, master the football solution and so young players become skillful and refine their technique a level up from youth competition (without the step being ridiculous). In foreign competitions this not always the case and on top of that, youngsters get far less chances. That's the culture. I know Neeskens posted in the past a stat she got from the Volkskrant that from the 50 or so attracted teenagers that went to England the past years, only 1 player made the first team: Tim Krul ..... a keeper, not even a real field player. All other Dutch youngsters going to EPL clubs have failed to get into that first team. Many of those talents would have been developed in the Dutch system as they did have talent obviously, but flop as they went for money and status at an early age, before really playing Eredivisie. This hurts the Dutch talent output as much of the good basis material gets squandered now by foreign clubs working their "magic"on them and don't really care if it fails. They just attract dozens of foreign kids and if 1 makes their first team, then that's still success. Counts for homegrown and no 20M transfer money.

Also Eredivisie as talent development league in the past was better (though it is still probably one of the best for that objective) as there were still some older players that created balance in a club team and gave younger players a shoulder to lean on and kept them out of the wind. Big talents that way could develop a little bit in their shadow. Now talents often have to pull the team at very young ages. Strootman for example at PSV. Was still 21 himself at PSV. Had a great first half of the season, collapsed a bit in the second half. Same for Wijnaldum.

The next problem is related to this problem. Dutch teams don't get CL experience anymore. Dutch kids at top teams in the past could get CL experience as Dutch clubs were going somewhere in Europe. This is not the case anymore. 1 team makes the group stages and crashes out. That's not good for development and experience either.

There are people claiming that where Spain and Germany for example went for more focus on technique, Dutch football education started to focus more on physique and power football and that this in the end will hurt Dutch football in a great way.

A particular problem for the Netherlands is that the most talented players are often from Moroccan and Turkish descent. A Moroccan is not able to lay down their citizenship even if they are 4th or 5th generation. Turks can, but often don't do. You have a player like Ozykup choosing for Turkey and Labyad choosing for Morocco. I think those two were talents that could have become of value for the Dutch NT. If this becomes a trend, we have a real problem. We educate players for 18 years and then 2 other FA's come along and could snitch our "Ozil". If you look at a player like Sneijder and imagine him being Moroccan and choosing for another FA, you realize that would mean the difference between a WC final exit and a WC quarter final exit. We would have to wait for a whole new cycle when especially that outlier is choosing to play for another NT.

These are some of the problems Dutch football face. I also want point to an international trend. Football is becoming more competitive internationally. Look at tennis. I was brought up with USA dominating the tour. Sampras, Agassi, Courrier. Look at them now. Their collapse in the sport has also to do with international level going up. So doing the same is not enough. You need to improve and even then it remains a hard field to compete. I see South Korea at the Olympics or Japan and China in the sport of swimming. They have made swimming their own in a short time. We can all make fun of China football, but a Dutch pundit already was quite impressed by a friendly they played against Spain not long ago. I think Japan is really evolving, also on league level. I see Kagawa, Honda. Good intelligent and technical players. I like what they aim to produce. I think Mexico (who have flirted with becoming a class team before) might start to "get it" as they play good football as well. In this field I see it becoming increasingly hard for a country like the Netherlands to ever win a WC. I think our best shots where the 3 in the past.

What is next? Dutch defense sucks. We have 3 oke keepers, but I prefer 1 world class one, like we had with van der Sar. I also don't like the new strikers. de Jong, Dost, Castaignos, Wolfswinkel. All one dimensional or poor multi dimensional players. RVP is not used correctly and Hunter idem dito. The question is if van Gaal is doing something about both cases. Both DM's in Clasie and Anita are internationally unproven. I don't know about WC 2014. Qualification maybe, but I don't see the magic in the team. Sneijder is magic and he is moving towards 30. He is injury prone and does not live like a pro. Much changes in 2 years and for Dutch NT, not for the best. It will become a "will the new generation stand up"-game.

For me the question is simple. What Dutch players carry an internationally successful club in Europe? None and the new group is still far away from achieving that if they are able to do that in the first place. I don't get my hopes high for Brazil 2014 and I have yet to see what van Gaal can do. Does he brew a team that is stronger than the sum of it's parts, or is his character resisted by the group and does he pull a 2002?
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Good response I love reading a book before bed jokes lol. Good insight there. But, with all that being said, how does Holland go from world cup finalists and dominating in qualifying to 3 straight losses in such a short time? Maybe as I said the freak loss to Denmark, and I say freak because they totally dominated that game just messed them completely. Of course Germany waiting next up was a daunting prospect. You guys easily could have been world champions if not for a pathetic call by the ref to award a goal kick instead of a corner in that 2010 final. Could have gone to penalties and from there it's a lottery. That being said Casillas is a beast in goal. Robben should have buried at least one chance too.

You should top the group but Turkey will offer stiff opposition. Holland always seem to self implode. Obviously I'm glad Italy beat you in the semi's of euro 2000, but to have a man advantage for 90 minutes and blow 2 penalties in normal time is astonishing. Euro 2000 should have been yours as well.

Fabio Grosso 2006 · Aug 2, 2012

I forgot to mention Italy's poor euro 2004 exit in the first round, as well as Germany's and Italy won the world cup 2 years later while Germany finished 3rd. A lot can happen in a short space of time. To me, Holland's poor finish means absolutely nothing. They're still without doubt one of the best teams in the world and one tournament doesnt erase all the good they have did in their history, the best team without a world cup without question. 3 world cup finals, at least they hold one euro. If we were to judge teams on one tournament then where would Italy be after 2010? Exactly. And look what they did this year, excluding the final.

Holland will be back. Regardless of 2014, Holland is still, and always will be a major force in world football. Oh and man was I going for you guys in the final of 2010 and against Portugal 2012 Euro's.

Fabio Grosso 2006 · Aug 2, 2012

On a different note in the group stage of 2008 you guys were the best to watch without question. Demolished my Italy and France, then did us a favour easily accounting for Romania with a 2nd string side. Must admit I didn't see the 3-1 loss to Russia coming. Would have loved to see you in the semi's as I left to go watch them 2 days after the Russia v Holland match. Was pissed about Italy losing too. Some great goals you guys served up in that tournament. Who could forget the brilliant counter attack goals vs Italy and France { RVP in that one, great pass from RVN } and the electric finishes from Robben and Sneijder. RVP also had a nice goal vs Romania too. Even enjoyed RVN goal vs Russia.