What needs fixing for next season?

Discussion in 'New England Revolution' started by RevsRule, Dec 7, 2014.

  1. Lothar is 1

    Lothar is 1 Member+

    Oct 21, 1999
    Yes.. the team finished 2nd in the East, and made it to MLS Cup.

    This isn't baseball. It's not a hitting or fielding situation.

    Many of those goals come from defenders/defensive players, many are conceded by mistakes from offensive players. Goals also are made easier when we're carrying a lead. They're more easily given up when we're trailing.

    It's a team concept, and you have to build up that teamwork to play well together.

    You have a team built there at the moment. You dismantle them, and you're right back to rebuilding a team again.

    We have some major pieces there that would make the rebuilding process easier... but why do it at all?
     
  2. soccertim

    soccertim Member

    Mar 29, 2001
    Mass
    People keep saying he doesn't have pace because they've seen him play. He's not that fast at all. He's just not. He's also a poor 1v1 defender. He generally does a poor job of tracking back, and doesn't tend to catch up with people that get behind him. He does have a well earned reputation for not using his right foot. If you want to claim that's why he's fairly easy to defend I won't necessarily disagree.
     
  3. soccertim

    soccertim Member

    Mar 29, 2001
    Mass
    First of all, people keep talking about what a great tactical move Heaps made by starting Alston at left back because he had the pace to keep up with Sams. On the goal Chris ran from the mid-line, but nobody on LA ran with him. The only players on that side of the pitch were standing still when he had a running start up field.
     
  4. soccertim

    soccertim Member

    Mar 29, 2001
    Mass
    A team's more than the sum of its parts, but better individual talent would make a big difference in most of the games.
     
  5. metoo

    metoo Member+

    Jun 17, 2002
    Massachusetts
    Club:
    New England Revolution
    Ah, ok, when you put it that way, I do agree: not counting the guys who are faster than him (of whom there are multitudes) he is indeed one of the fastest in the league. Though I'm still not sure about your bit about "He also doesn't really try to beat people on the dribble often, and usually plays the smart ball back, rather than chance a giveaway." So perhaps he could beat players on the dribble, but, you know, he doesn't try to, it's not part of his chosen oeuvre? He's kind of a professional soccer hipster, 'pfft, beating players on the dribble, that's so bourgeois'.

    Though I would like to clear one thing up, as I've heard other people use the phrase, I think on TV coverage even - it's not an "offside trap", they try to keep a high line. They didn't suddenly step up right before the ball was played forward trying to put players offside, they had stepped up a while before, and Tierney didn't stay in line with them. It's actually not as bad if a player is strong side, the ball is in front of him and he has to turn his head quite a lot to see the line, but Tierney was weak side, he should have easily been able to both see the line and see the ball. You even admit he's bad at team defense, aka he's poor tactically on defense, yet overall he's a "smart veteran"? As I said before, hmmm...
     
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  6. VTSoccerFan

    VTSoccerFan Member+

    New England Revolution, Vermont Catamounts, NCFC
    United States
    Jun 28, 2002
    Cary, NC
    Club:
    New England Revolution
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    From the Revs Notebook on players moves. Among other info in the article:

     
  7. ToMhIlL

    ToMhIlL Member+

    Feb 18, 1999
    Boxborough, MA
    Club:
    New England Revolution
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I think we've found out Brad's Big Soccer name!
     
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  8. Revs in 2010

    Revs in 2010 Member+

    Feb 29, 2000
    Roanoke, VA
    Club:
    New England Revolution
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Not so sure, Brad would have found a way to work "Cultured Left Foot" into the post.
     
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  9. BERich

    BERich Member+

    Feb 3, 2012
    New England
    Club:
    New England Revolution
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Most posters think that defense is the problem; I'll go along with the sentiment that all positions could improve with an upgrade. But my biggest concern would be with the forward position. I think we need to get a forward that puts a scare in the other team's defense.

    Here's the numbers for the Revs in 2014:
    Goals against pre JJ - 36; Goals for during that time period - 29. That covers 23 games; which includes the 2 games where we scored 5 goals each. So 1/3 of our totals goals over 23 games came in just 2 games.

    Goals against since JJ - 18; Goals for during that time period - 32. That covers 15 games including the playoffs.

    I did not include any open cup games; as they are not always staffed with the first team players.
     
  10. metoo

    metoo Member+

    Jun 17, 2002
    Massachusetts
    Club:
    New England Revolution
    I don't know anything about this kid, but in general, while I know college soccer gets a lot of grief, it's more because the style that is played can put a bit too much emphasis on speed and strength. It's possible that a "heady" or more cerebral player might get overlooked due to lack of size or speed, I'd say that if such a player is on a roster, but can't get regular playing time, it's likely he's not a professional level player. MLS is not exactly slow, nor is it lacking in physicality, and any cerebral type player who's good enough to play professionally, whether in MLS or elsewhere, would be more than good enough to play in college.
     
  11. Lothar is 1

    Lothar is 1 Member+

    Oct 21, 1999
    #111 Lothar is 1, Dec 10, 2014
    Last edited: Dec 10, 2014
    Yes... What point did Alston come on during the 1st leg? 80th or so? So Tierney did just fine on his own in the 1st leg.

    People don't talk about Alston coming on to stay with Sam because of pace. People talk about Alston and Tierney combined together covering defensively for Sam's pace (Sam being a clear top 5 fastest player in the league), and that allowing Tierney to be able to focus more on getting forward than having to track back to cover Sam's speed.

    It wasn't Alston that showed well in the 2nd leg it was Tierney beating players and getting down the flank to send in the cross to Charlie Davies that stood as the winner.

    Edit: I should also point out its a tactical change I'd been arguing for much of the season. I'm perfectly fine with Tierney on the flank and Alston in behind him. The two of them combine well.
     
  12. Lothar is 1

    Lothar is 1 Member+

    Oct 21, 1999
    I didn't say he was "fastest" in the league... I said one of the faster players in the league, easily in the top 3rd. People around here talk about the guy as if he's immobile. He doesn't get beat for pace often. He often catches people from behind. He also gets in behind people on the flank.

    You want to talk about beating players on the dribble... how about the goal he scored in MLS Cup? He didn't just make a run wide open into the box, he made a run from his own half to get a ball played to him at the top of the box, but he actually juked around the defender before beating the oncoming keeper.

    He's a smart player by making smart decisions often, including timing that run.

    He delivers the ball nearly flawlessly from set pieces for the entire game, if not season. He shares that same distribution ability in the field of play.

    A fine example of that comes from that MLS Cup match. In the first half, when we were being penned in and they couldn't clear the lines, there was an excellent play where instead of just booting it up the field and either out of play or back to LA, like everyone had been doing, he actually held his clearance, paused, and then chipped over the defender right onto the foot of Bunbury, so they could work the ball up the field. That's what you're going to get out of Tierney that you're not getting out of most players.

    Yes, he misread an offside trap on 1 play in the 115th minute of MLS Cup so a bunch of fans will complain and target him for it for a long time. I even question why you're running an offside trap at that point in the game, which is completely unwise, because that's exactly what can happen. At the end of extra-time during matches, people get tired, their bodies slow down, and they make mental mistakes. I'm sure there are countless Argentine's you could fault for not covering Gotze on the run he made to get the goal he scored in the World Cup final. Does that mean Argentina should overhaul their defense?

    You say it's one thing if you're on the strong side, and assume he could see the move because he was away from the ball. It's more of a sound thing than a sight thing. The players around him are nowhere near the ball, so he's not watching that aspect of it, he was glimpsing at who was around him, which didn't include another defender, so he's not going to see a defender step up. He's also far enough away from them, with as loud as it was, to be able to hear a call. So he was doing what he ought to, and tracking back to make sure he covered runs and didn't get beat over the top. That's the smart play at the time, not to attempt an off-side trap, but to make sure you don't get beat over the top.

    Up until that point in that match, even prior to the goal he scored that helped get us to the 115th minute the color commentator, Twellman, who had played with Tierney, had been frothing at the mouth at how well Tierney had been playing.

    If you want to take a fan boy reaction and pile on, then that's what you're going to do... but as someone who tends to see the whole picture, Tierney is one of the better players on this team, and not a player we need to go out and replace. I don't think we even have to worry about discussing this because I'm sure the Revs FO, Heaps, and the rest of his teammates know that already.
     
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  13. soccertim

    soccertim Member

    Mar 29, 2001
    Mass
    Go back and watch the Charlie's 2nd goal in that last game in the mls highlights. Tierney got the ball twice on the play. Both times Tierney was standing still out wide by himself when someone gave him the ball and he got the cross off before the defenders could close him down. That's generally where most of his crosses come from. He gets out wide and someone sucks in the defense and gets the ball to Chris when he has 10-15 yards of space. He doesn't beat people to the corner very often. I don't know what you think you're looking at, but it sure isn't Tierney making a lot of plays where he beats people with his great pace.
     
  14. Lothar is 1

    Lothar is 1 Member+

    Oct 21, 1999
    Fair enough. There's no way to tell completely if/when Tierney finding space is totally on his ability to find that space and get to it quickly before anyone notices, or because of defensive indifference that players see him there and don't care to step out to cover him (because he's not known for a great crossing ability or anything). I'm pretty confident it's a combination of the two, and that he's a wily enough player to know when and where to find that space. You've all obviously made up your minds on him, so arguing the point is useless. I'm glad that the Revs FO and coaching also seem to be set on their minds about how key his role on this team has been going back a few seasons, and specifically in the stretch run of this season. I'm fairly confident replacing Tierney isn't figuring into their plans for off-season moves.
     
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  15. soccertim

    soccertim Member

    Mar 29, 2001
    Mass
    The bulk of his corner kicks are pretty poor. Crosses and delivery, again, is the one thing he does reasonably well, but "nearly flawlessly from set pieces for the entire game, if not season is a wild exaggeration.
     
  16. soccertim

    soccertim Member

    Mar 29, 2001
    Mass
    There is a way to tell if Tierney is finding space by getting to it quickly or not. Go to the stadium and watch him play. And, yes, I've made up my mind on him, which shouldn't be surprising as he's among our career leaders in minutes played. I'd guess the FO agrees with you, but then they aren't exactly the sharpest knives in the drawer.
     
  17. metoo

    metoo Member+

    Jun 17, 2002
    Massachusetts
    Club:
    New England Revolution
    Heh, ok, if you want to break down the grammar or whatnot, saying "he is one of the faster players in the league" is to me the equivalent of saying 'he is one of the fastest players in the league', as in my experience, when people talking about grouping people or things, the -er and -est suffixes are pretty much literally equivalent. If you think that when people use those phrases, they mean that the group of faster players is mutually exclusive from the group of fastest players, then we just have a different understanding of the usage of such phrases.

    That said, I'll just say that I flat out disagree that he is in the top third of the league in terms of speed, either over long distance, or in short bursts, aka quickness. From what I've seen, I think you and Brad Feldman (if you are different people) are the only people who seem to think he's fast.

    As for his goal, it was a good play for which I give him credit, but he didn't 'beat a player on the dribble', he ran onto a ball played to him and made a good touch to put it behind a defender that was coming at him. I'm not saying it wasn't a nice touch, it was very nice, perfect even, but it is different than beating someone on the dribble.

    Furthermore, as I said, it wasn't an "offside trap" where he missed a call for something that happened in a split second, he simply didn't hold the line with the rest of the defense. And in general, holding a line is not purely about vocal communication, players are not only allowed to also look and see where their teammates are, it's encouraged that they would look around and see where they are in relation to other players on the field. Regarding your comment about not being close to the ball, if you and the players in your area are not near the ball, you don't need to watch them like a hawk, to the exclusion of seeing the rest of the field, you actually can pay slightly less attention than you would if you were closer to the ball, as you should have more time to recover should they move when you glance away. These are simple concepts that apply at all levels, not some special tactical nuance that only happens at the highest level. Also, seeing as he was so far from the ball, there was no need for him to be behind those closer to the ball, as he wouldn't have been providing any sort of cover for them, all he was doing was keeping opponents closer to the ball onside.

    Lastly, it's seems like a convenient way to try to explain away why you're in the minority, saying that everyone who disagrees is just a fanboy looking to pile on, but this is actually something that's been said many times before, through the season. This is not something new for me, I've said it on this board in the past, including in this particular thread, and it was not something he missed once, in the 115th minute of the final, if that were the case I would say it was just an unfortunate mistake, but for him, being out of position defensively is something he's done many times in the past. I do find it odd that you say he's poor at team defense, then act like this was a one time thing - what did you mean by saying he is bad at team defense if not that he's prone to mistakes like that one?

    If you like him and what he brings offensively, that's fine, but what you're saying in trying to explain away his weaknesses is just plain wrong.
     
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  18. Lothar is 1

    Lothar is 1 Member+

    Oct 21, 1999
    #118 Lothar is 1, Dec 10, 2014
    Last edited: Dec 10, 2014
    I apologize then for using the correct English term for the comparative not the superlative, and having you misinterpret it... Oh wait, that's on you and not me.

    As far as your disagreement, that's unfortunate, but if your lumping my opinion as in agreement with Brad Feldman and the Revs FO, and yours with the people who watch the game from the end lines with bad vision of what actually goes on, I'm glad to be on the side that gets paid to do this.

    Oh okay, so aside from dribbling around the defender, he didn't beat him on the dribble. Gotcha.

    What a terrible play from your Left Back while being down with minutes to go in MLS Cup. The guy must be absolute garbage.

    It must have sucked for you having to grit your teeth and wince as he scored 2 goals and provided 2 assists in 5 playoff games this year, that helped get us to MLS Cup and level MLS Cup when we looked all but eliminated.

    So he's not Penaldo, with the fancy stepover moves, but he's effective, and gets the job done.

    He's a $100k/yr MLS Player, that scored 2 goals and 2 assist in 5 playoff games, with some pretty damn good defending for much of that time as well. He was tied for 5th in the league in post-season goals, and 4th in the league for post-season assists. He was 2nd on our team this season in assists, tied with Lee Nguyen and Kelyn Rowe with 5, playing in less time than the others and doing so mostly on defense.

    What more do you want out of him? LA got 2 goals and 3 assists out of Keane in 5 playoff games for all the millions he gets paid. Speaking of which $6m/yr got Seattle 1 goal in 4 games from Dempsey, and whatever Martins gets now got them 0 goals and 0 assists.

    To say that Tierney punched well above his worth when it mattered is a major understatement.

    Just so we're clear, though... this is the guy you want to vilify?

    2009 - 4th on team in assists
    2010 - 2nd on team in assists
    2011 - 2nd on team in assists
    2012 - 1st on team in assists
    2013 - 4th on team in assists
    2014 - 2nd on team in assists

    I can see why you'd want to rush him out of town... he's been next to useless for us... :rolleyes:

    Actually, as you can see from the play he wasn't concerned with being behind those near the ball, he was concerned because he was on an island on the far side of the field with 2 runners. He did glance over after that to see the offside trap being put into place. The two guys near the ball and near Goncalves saw him do it, the one that was far away did not. He glanced over a second too late, and knew it right away, which is why rather than trying then hold up, he read what was going on and raced over to try and get to Keane.

    Again, the smart play there is not to attempt an offside trap. That's a cardinal sin in the 115th minute of an elimination match. The reason being if it's not done right you leave someone in on goal for a clear chanc to end a game, when everyone's legs and minds are tired and it's more likely to head to PKs if everyone is able to pack it in. Everyone knows that's a major risk. That risk was taken by JoGo. Why is Tierney the one taking all the ire from that one play. As much should be said about JoGo trying to pull an offside trap at the end of the game, when everyone should be worried more about man defending and not getting beat over the top for the late goal. If Tierney saw it, and pulls up, then we're not talking about this, but the risk is that one of the other 3 players on the back line didn't anticipate the move. That's what happens. So rather than taking the chance, staying back is the smart move at that point in the game. If the center backs don't pull forward, and just make sure to track back, Keane isn't in alone, and we're not talking about this.

    I never said you haven't criticized Tierney before, but the chorus of animosity that's being portrayed isn't the same old hat, this is new and in particular vehemence in relation to what occurred at the very end of the game, not the first 115 minutes of it.

    Name me 1 time he was beat defensively this entire game. If he's as bad defensively as you claim, they'd have been burning him most of the match. They weren't. In fact, they switched up taking Bunbury and putting him on the other side of the field to cover more defensively for Farrell because Rowe was being burnt. Yet, when Rowe came back over to the left, there weren't major problems on the left side. Almost every Galaxy attack came down the right side of our defense. Tierney was playing shut down defense, ball winning, and distributing the ball well all game long.

    Of course this is fan boy piling on. If the CBs don't try to pull a risky offside trap at the end of the game, and it goes to penalties, no one in their right mind is criticizing Tierney. He'd have been celebrated on end for the assists to Davies and the goal to tie up MLS Cup, and his defensive work on Sam and Donovan over the last 3 games would've been lauded. Instead, there's gonna be an off-season of people piling on because of the one play, ignoring all the work he did to get us to where that 1 play was even of any consequence to us.

    I like what he brings both in terms of offensive production, as well as the ability to make creative possession rather than just boot it up field. He reads the game way and tends to know where the ball is heading to and where to head it off.

    He is a good 1-on-1 defender. You can try to say he isn't, but the only plays you can chalk up to him this year aren't getting beat on the ball, it's the times when there was a lack of communication between he and the CBs, and someone he wasn't watching got a goal. That's not him 1-on-1 with someone. That's a team defense concept.

    Yes, he has weaknesses. Every player does. I don't see his weaknesses as how bad that you do. I certainly don't see his weaknesses in any way out-measuring the numerous positives you get out of him. It's more than fair to say he's one of the most underrated players in the league. That obviously even includes around here.

    I would personally play him as a flank and not a defender, but I also don't have a problem with him being a defender for us. He's played numerous positions in his time in New England and continued to produce, for affordable money. He's a local guy, who was born in Boston, grew up playing youth soccer in the area and as a Revs fan in the stands rooting for the team. He's an asset to this team not a liability. He's definitely someone to hold onto.
     
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  19. Lothar is 1

    Lothar is 1 Member+

    Oct 21, 1999
    I've been to the stadium many times this season. I've seen games from several parts of the stadium, mostly the ones with better views of the play than at the end line. Additionally, I've recorded and watched all the games on TV even if I was at the game. You can knock the FO guys, but they just put together another MLS Cup run... in good part propelled by the work of the guy you're knocking.
     
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  20. KapeGuy

    KapeGuy Member+

    Mar 21, 2010
    Cape Cod
    Club:
    New England Revolution
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Appreciate the defense of Tierney. You're right of course. Results over the years show how valuable he is, and he is highly regarded by the FO, his teammates, and observers around the league (was rated as the second best LB in one recent article -- sorry I don't have the link). The criticism of him here is bizarre, and it tells you something about how insightful the pundits here are . . . speaking of which


    Curious why you think your player assessment is better that the FO's. I don't know your coaching/player assessment credentials, but those guys who aren't the sharpest knives in the drawer, they just sent a team to the mls cup finals. Just luck, I suppose.
     
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  21. metoo

    metoo Member+

    Jun 17, 2002
    Massachusetts
    Club:
    New England Revolution
    Heh, I know my post was rather long, I sometimes feel guilty about how long some of my posts tend to get, but man, your posts make mine look like tweets. I did scan your post though, and a few comments on what I saw before I wash my hands of this conversation.

    - Nowhere did I ever say they should get rid of him, I have just been trying to counter your momentous overrating of his talents. I don't think he should be starting, but I'm more than happy with him as a bench player.

    - I never said, nor did I say you said he was "the fastest" player in the league, I said the phrases 'among the faster' and 'among the fastest' are pretty much equivalent. Again you just made up something I never said.

    - Receiving a pass and using one touch to play a ball into the space behind a player who is lunging at you as the ball is coming to you is not "beating a player on the dribble". You can't just make up your own definitions for things. Plus, you may have noticed, I was rather effusive in my praise of his touch, but that doesn't mean he dribbled by the guy.

    - Holding a high line is not the same as an offside trap. See my previous comment about just making up definitions. And I would love to coach against someone with the tactical naivete to tell his or her players that if they are on the weak side, they don't have to pay any attention to the rest of the defense, and they can chose to stand wherever they want to.

    - if the people who are critical of him are just "fanboys piling on", then aren't you also just "a fanboy making up nonsense to try to defend the guy you have a crush on"?

    But seeing as I've now been dragged down to your level of name calling, I can truly say I feel as though I've come to embody that quote attributed to Mark Twain - "Never argue with stupid people. They will drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience." So have fun, but I've tired of this and I'm done.
     
  22. soccertim

    soccertim Member

    Mar 29, 2001
    Mass
    I don't think you've found the seat yet that will give you a realistic view of what's going on at the game, but don't give up yet. There are only 60k+ more to try, so there's hope.

    Seriously, though, the thought that you're somehow getting a better idea of what's going on in the game because you sit in different sections than other people is absurd. That's what I had to do with my son to give him a good understanding of what the players were doing when he was 6 or 7, but only for a season or so, and that's not an exaggeration.

    As for the FO, as I've said, we have two really good players and a bunch of decent ones. We were close enough to winning this year that a few improvements could have made the difference. It's great that they finally invested the money in a good player like Jones and I'm glad that they got him but it's hard to make the argument that they put a lot of effort into constructing the rest of the roster.
     
  23. patfan1

    patfan1 Moderator
    Staff Member

    Aug 19, 1999
    Nashua, NH
    Club:
    New England Revolution
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Careful with the comments getting personal please.
     
  24. soccertim

    soccertim Member

    Mar 29, 2001
    Mass
    I'd guess you never have much to post if your player/tactic assessment credentials don't rise to the level of MLS coaches/GMs. If you aren't qualified to question any of their tactics/lineups/roster moves, what's left? Policing the board to make sure nobody else disagrees with them either?
     
  25. KapeGuy

    KapeGuy Member+

    Mar 21, 2010
    Cape Cod
    Club:
    New England Revolution
    Nat'l Team:
    United States

    What's left? Speculating, raising questions, offering opinions, disagreeing even . . . you can really do a lot of discussing without belittling people who, in all likelihood, know a lot more about the game than you do.

    But if that's how you enjoy being a fan, carry on.
     

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