What is the problem with Canada?

Discussion in 'USA Men' started by LouisianaViking07/09, Jun 11, 2016.

  1. Three and Three

    Three and Three Member+

    Sep 13, 2015
    Club:
    New England Revolution
    I admire the Canadian team. It's the team to which, aside from the US, I'm closest. In the end, though, where was the quality? Davies? Certainly. David? Yeah. Larin? When properly provided, a factor. But the midfield was lacking. And it always lacked. The individual components are great supporting pieces, but nothing else. And how did Canada allow itself to be so stretched? Croatia are class, but come on. Anyway, the Telemundo crew praised Canada for what it achieved; the magnanimity was general, not patronizing. But each insisted that Canada needs to have its own league, one that includes its MLS teams. Without that, the crew agreed, Canada can't expect too much.
     
  2. Clint Eastwood

    Clint Eastwood Member+

    Dec 23, 2003
    Somerville, MA
    Club:
    FC Dallas
    True story.
    The USMNT started their "A" midfield of Adams-McKennie-Musah in our 2nd WCQer against them. That was in 2022. Canada's midfield looked more than fine that day. :)

    The problem today was that Canada was outclassed. It happens at this level. Mexico was outclassed by Argentina. Costa Rica got their butts kicked by Spain.

    We talked about this before today. Canada has now reached that 2nd tier of nations that can qualify for a World Cup and acquit themselves well there. But the task of reaching the caliber of those top tier nations is HUGE. The USMNT has been investing like hell for 25 years. Here's an uncomfortable fact: We're basically ranked the same by FIFA today as we were in 1995. We haven't budged against the best in the World. And by the way, neither have affluent nations like Japan, Australia, etc.

    What Canada needs to do is just try to keep building and building. So its fun to say "Canada should start an elite 1st division league." Yeah...............whose money are the Telemundo guys spending? Canada has the CPL, and that's going to be a slow build.
     
  3. jaykoz3

    jaykoz3 Member+

    Dec 25, 2010
    Conshohocken, PA
    Club:
    Philadelphia Union
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    They have their own league. They can have teams in MLS, and also have their own league. Both can be part of the solution of providing an environment and structure where Canadian soccer players can grow, improve, thrive, and make a good living. Is it perfect? Nope. No system ever is.

    A lot has to happen for both to work together. For one the CPL and MLS, specifically the three Canadian teams, need to have a better relationship. There is contention there. It's understandable as those that are investing in CPL want what's best for the CPL. The three MLS teams are obviously looking out for their own investments/interests.

    Completely understand that the CPL doesn''t want MLS development teams in their league. I get why the three MLS teams would want to have their development team in the CPL.

    IMO, the three MLS teams should meet CPL in the middle. They each should invest in a CPL team in their market with separate branding. Use those teams to exclusively play U22 Canadian players, preferably U20. They can still have MLSNXT Pro teams as their reserve teams if they wish. This way they are supporting the CPL, but not stepping on them either. It would/should be no different than Atletico Madrid running a team in the CPL.
     
  4. Clint Eastwood

    Clint Eastwood Member+

    Dec 23, 2003
    Somerville, MA
    Club:
    FC Dallas
    I think folks believe the finances of the CSA and CPL are different from the reality of the situation.

    It's always fun to spend other people's money, particularly when it doesn't exist.

    People do realize the massive difference between the finances in the CPL and MLS? Just google average and mean salaries in these leagues. Building the CPL to compete with Liga MX and MLS will be a long-term project. And why on God's Green Earth would the 3 MLS clubs leave MLS for the CPL as the Telemundo guys suggested? What kind of business decision would that be?
     
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  5. Clint Eastwood

    Clint Eastwood Member+

    Dec 23, 2003
    Somerville, MA
    Club:
    FC Dallas
    This is the CPL's motivation right now...........not "competing" with MLS. And for now, that's fine. They just need to build and build.
     
  6. Elninho

    Elninho Member+

    Sacramento Republic FC
    United States
    Oct 30, 2000
    Sacramento, CA
    Club:
    Los Angeles Galaxy
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I'm not sure it's true that we haven't budged against the best in the world. We're now able to go toe-to-toe with them and outplay them for long stretches, instead of just defending and countering.

    We haven't budged against the second tier of national teams, because they've all gotten closer to the best in the world. In 1994, the big five European league systems accounted for about 35% of the players in the World Cup, and the second-tier countries still drew most of their players from their domestic leagues. Today, every country in the top 30 is loaded with players in the big five leagues.
     
  7. DrunkOffPunch

    DrunkOffPunch Member

    United States
    Jul 14, 2020
    What are you on about? Do you think every academy player all over the world only plays in their hometown? Pepi, as an example, grew up over 600 miles from Dallas. Shoot other academy players at Dallas were from Alabama. If you’re here to troll at least do some research.
     
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  8. Potowmack

    Potowmack Member+

    Apr 2, 2010
    Washington, DC
    Club:
    DC United
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    The MLS academies are probably within a reasonable distance of the majority of the American population. Sure, they might miss a kid in rural North Dakota or somewhere deep in Appalachia, but I’m not sure how you could realistically come up with a system that could find that kid, given the size of the country and how spread out we are compared to many European nations.
     
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  9. rgli13

    rgli13 Member+

    Mar 23, 2005
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    in conclusion, canada are the cubs minus the prior success. all "next time"...
     
  10. LouisianaViking07/09

    Aug 15, 2009
    I'm surprised the Croatians took it so damn harshly.
     
  11. shooter6065

    shooter6065 Member

    Nov 16, 2000
    Chicago
    Club:
    Chicago Fire
    I have heard that MLS academies are free but my friend's son is in the RSL system in Arizona (Arizona is RSL's "property") and he pays thousands a year in expenses. It is just another pay-to-play scheme with an MLS logo on the front of the jersey.
     
  12. shooter6065

    shooter6065 Member

    Nov 16, 2000
    Chicago
    Club:
    Chicago Fire
    As I said on another post, my son's friend is at RSL in Arizona and it is not a free academy. It is just another pay-for-play scheme with an MLS logo.

    Can somebody clarify how this academy system works because I am positive my friend is shelling out thousands per year. They even have to pay to get into youth soccer games sometimes.
     
  13. Clint Eastwood

    Clint Eastwood Member+

    Dec 23, 2003
    Somerville, MA
    Club:
    FC Dallas
    If he's playing for an RSL youth affiliate in Arizona, that's different than playing for their development academy squad. Those more remote affiliate clubs aren't free.

    When clubs identify elite, talented kids at their affiliate clubs, then they bring him into their free development academy squads. For RSL, those at their Utah complex now.

    [RSL Arizona used to have a residential academy in Arizona, but that's since been taken over by Barcelona.]

    A club like FC Dallas literally has thousands of kids playing across Texas (they also have youth affiliates in Arkansas, Florida, and other places.) They can't all play for free. That's impossible.

    Anyway, when it comes to Canada........................youth development is indeed their next step. That's what the CPL is investing so much in. It takes time. They're making progress as evidenced by their current senior national team. The MLS homegrown initiative started in 2007, and only now some of those academies are starting to produce talent. There are some outliers like Dallas, RBNY, etc. that have been doing it longer. But a team like Houston, in a major metropolitan area, hasn't produced much yet. Houston academy products have zero USMNT caps. That's not unusual.

    The CSA has to figure out how to organize nationally in this regard. On the youth forums, underperformance at the youth level seems like a constant source of frustration for Canadian fans. It's the US that's back-to-back-to-back CONCACAF U20 Champions. Canada does poorly at the U17 and U20 level. They lost to Cuba at the recent U20 CONCACAF Championships. While youth results aren't the "be-all, end-all" they do mean something. Consistent performers at the youth level tend to be the national team programs with the healthiest talent pipelines. And since the elite players tend to skip those events, it also is a sign of depth. Canada is already eliminated from going to the 2023 U20 World Cup and 2024 Olympics. Those are missed opportunities.

    Essentially, they need to make sure this current group isn't a "golden generation".................but just the forefront of a talent wave. And of course, what's really good is that Canada is no longer losing all of their dual-national recruiting battles. They're recruiting and retaining good players.

    [Americans talk about their domestic development programs as if a quarter of their starting lineup isn't typically recruited dual nationals. Musah, Antonee, Dest, Weah, and a host of others.]
     
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  14. gomichigan24

    gomichigan24 Member+

    Jul 15, 2002
    Club:
    Manchester United FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Weah is a bit different from the others. He grew up in New York and even played in an MLS academy. He wasn’t that much younger than Pulisic or Reyna when they went over. He’s a dual national, but there wasn’t really any recruitment there just like there wasn’t any recruitment for Pulisic and Reyna. Weah is actually the first US player to have scored in the U17 World Cup, the U20 World Cup, and the World Cup itself. He’s been in the fold since the beginning.

    Dest, Musah, and Jedi were recruitment scenarios to different extents.
     
  15. Robert Borden

    Robert Borden Member+

    Chelsea
    Canada
    Apr 19, 2017
    Toronto, Ontario
    Nat'l Team:
    Canada
    I'll say that what Herdman said about Croatia had nothing to do with that lose. Croatia won because they were simply a superior team who were the World Cup finalist 4 years ago with one of the best midfield trios out there. That simple - Canada hadn't faced that quality of a side in decades and I believe lots of lessons will be learned from that.

    For all the praise I kept reading about Herdman on this forum, I must say that I thought his management of this tournament was lacking. Saying "F" them was on thing on the pitch to try to motivate the guys to leave the Belgium game behind - but to say it again in front of the media was another thing. Also, after the lose, Herdman didn't shake the Croatian coach hand, that's not right either.

    About the tournament management that he claimed to have mapped out months ago

    Belgium
    Great performance and he figured out Belgium. However, leaving it to the guys on the pitch to decide who takes the penalty on this stage was bizarre. Jonathan David takes Lille penalties, while Davies takes none for Bayern. There was no collective decision for that penalty - Davies just grabbed the ball as soon as the penalty was given.

    Croatia
    The tactic was wrong and naive as he didn't changed anything except a few players and expected the same core of guys to replicate what they did against Belgium - which they couldn't. The decision to use only 2 midfielders against Croatia's quality 3 was a big sign that we'd lose midfield and it was worse than that - our mid got destroyed, Hutchinson was gassed within the 1st half and should have never played 72 minutes while Eustaquio injured himself. This left our forwards ineffective and isolated. That's unacceptable when you have Wotherspoon, Osorio, Koné and Piette that could have started. (I don't rate Mark-Anthony Kaye that high)

    Bringing in Koné and Osorio and play with 3 midfielders was a huge improvement but not rotating defence was another mistake. Cornelius should have started at CB with Vitoria replacing Miller / Adekugbe at LB instead of having Laryea play there opposite to the right side while having Ritchie start at RB instead of Johnston.

    I`ll just say it - not selecting Scott Arfield was a mistake, we needed his quality at midfield and whatever drama there was within the team in regards to Scott should have been squashed months ago.

    1st time managing Tournament patterns
    It reminded me of the 1st Nations League win against the US where the tactic was flawless while the return game was atrocious with questionable choices in both tactics and players. Same in his 1st Gold Cup that started well until the Haiti collapse cause bad using the wrong players and tactics.

    What's encouraging is that he learned from both and our 2nd Gold Cup was much better and I think the upcoming Nations League will reflect that - same for next Gold Cup. He did manage the World Cup qualifiers much better as a result. I expect 2026 to look much better than this.

    Morocco
    I think he will do what he should have done against Croatia, heavy rotation to try and manage the game with 2nd half subs with stronger players for extra speed and skills to try to go for the win

    Positives for players
    Lots of European scouts paid close attention to Canadian players and will look much closer at our guys & system at home. Tajon Buchanan will move to a top 5 league, Alistair Johnston will go to Celtic and I expect Nottingham Forest to recall Ritchie Laryea or sell him to another club.

    Koné will go to England for sure now, same as Osorio who wants to leave MLS in 2023 for England. I think Stephen Eustaquio will move to a top club, he outplayed De Bryune and was of the few quality guys against Modric`s Croatia. Alphonso Davies might move to Spain as Real Madrid wants to acquire him while David will move up regardless of having an uneventful world cup so far - he`s still the 4th best goal scorer in France.

    New Cycle
    I expect the team to go much younger and provide lots of opportunity to newcomers like Koné did this year. Borjan will be phased out for St.Clair and Crepeau while Vitoria & Henry will make place for Scott Kennedy (injured) and Cornelius joining Johnston, Miller, Adekugbe and Laryea as the core.*

    *Reminder that Waterman and McNaughton (reserve) are former CPL defenders who joined the team in Qatar, the league will produce more at multiple positions.

    The future is bright in attack as current stars will reach their prime years around 2026.

    The midfield will need to be reinforced by then so expect a lot of new faces auditioning for positions in the coming Nations League and Gold Cups such as Victor Loturi at Ross County and Lucas Dias at Sporting CP who could fill a spot badly needed in the squad as a AM

    In the end , the logic will be respected where we'll finish either 3rd or last in a group with the #2 and #12 in the world - which was the expectation. We'll come back stronger in 2026
     
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  16. Robert Borden

    Robert Borden Member+

    Chelsea
    Canada
    Apr 19, 2017
    Toronto, Ontario
    Nat'l Team:
    Canada
    This is an "anomaly" that the CPL is fixing with the USports Draft. All those players came from League 1 Ontario (D3) and they had to go to the US because the 3 MLS clubs are notorious to snob anything outside of their academy system even if it's in their doorsteps.

    With CPL linking with USports and making this deal allowing them to be paid pro while keeping their student status will help with retention in Canadian Universities (over 50 teams competing for 1 cup) while D3 has now a direct path to pro.

    To be fair - that's the struggle of all CONCACAF nations - not just Canada even in comparison to Mexico and the US.
     
  17. Robert Borden

    Robert Borden Member+

    Chelsea
    Canada
    Apr 19, 2017
    Toronto, Ontario
    Nat'l Team:
    Canada
    There's already a relation in regards to loans to CPL while the 3 clubs are buying CPL players. However, the league not allowing MLS B team is absolutely the right call. We had decades of USL B teams in this country and they never had much success and we witnessed how MLS clubs ran those teams - separate branding wouldn't change that. That would bring the value of the league down as a whole. It's a much better choice to have clubs of your own in those markets instead

    Atletico brings value to the league and are running Ottawa truly seriously and with intent to contribute to the success of the league. Madrid appointed one of their staff to run the club in Ottawa. It was clear early on that TFC had no such interest to replicate what Madrid is doing and Bill Manning himself said as much that he wanted a B team in CPL and that a different branding wouldn't change the fact that people would know it's TFC B team. Same echoes from Vancouver and Saputo

    I don't think they fully understand the sanctioning and league rules. The 3 MLS clubs can never join CPL due to the single-entity structure of the league.

    MLSE, Saputo and Vancouver ownership starting clubs in CPL would be a plus but not while operating MLS franchise in the same markets. Those would have to move in the US if they wish to keep their MLS franchise or sell them and start another in Canada under CPL in the same cities - that's the main contentious point over here and only a ruling from CONCACAF could make this happen like with the Ottawa Fury.

    Actually from my comprehension, CSB got a much more "adventitious" deal with the CSA vs what SUM/USSF - or am I wrong? As the details of this deal came out, the CSA pretty much gave TONS of leverage to CSB who writes them a $3M cheque every year and keep everything else in terms of marketing and media revenues. Either the CSA underestimated the revenues that could be generated or CSB did so on purpose but this is why the players came out. It's ridiculously one sided while CSB can unilaterally renew the deal for an extra 10 years until around 2040.

    With the national teams being hot commodities, CSB is getting deals after deals done with a huge increase of revenues coming into the league to CPL owners directly. In return, CSB is building the pyramid up with League 1 Canada (inter-provincial D3 men & women), connecting with USports (CPL Draft) and starting CPL as D1 with the goal of starting a Women's D1.

    CSB having the lion-share of the revenues means they have increase leverage over the CSA's affairs. Concessions would need to be made for CSB to give them more.

    That's very accurate and the league understands the need to grow at the right pace. Trying to grow to fast gave cause FC Edmonton to be shelved and their owner's rights to be revoked while York United 1st year was terrible and forced a rebrand.

    I think the CPL is doing much better than they are letting on with CSB - to the frustration of the player's union
    • Halifax - breaking even at the very least with maxed attendances
    • Winnipeg - Soccer club is losing money but combined with the CFL Blue Bombers, Winnipeg Football Club are profitable according to their financial records. Same model as TFC/MLSE on a smaller scale
    • Hamilton - Same model as Winnipeg as they combined the clubs (CPL/CFL) under one entity but I think Forge is actually profitable
    • Ottawa being under the Atletico umbrella means a similar model and it's Madrid that appointed someone from their organization to run Ottawa.
    • Vancouver Island / Pacific FC - Hard to say but their owners (Investment fund) started Vancouver FC and wants to acquire a European club next (Smart if you want that European bridge between CPL and Europe). Attendance is up and their stadium size is expanding as of now.
    • Calgary, Toronto are most likely not breaking even yet but I don't think they are bleeding as much red as people think. Valour lost $300k in their inaugural season, not millions. Toronto (York United) has the weakest attendance but have done very well in selling players.
     
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  18. CANPRO

    CANPRO Member+

    Dec 23, 2002
     
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  19. gomichigan24

    gomichigan24 Member+

    Jul 15, 2002
    Club:
    Manchester United FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I think it'd be a very good thing for Canada, Mexico, and the United States to take part in this. An opportunity for all 3 teams to get high level competition that they don't usually get to face in a competitive setting.

    It's too bad the Confederations Cup is gone because that would have been a good opportunity too.
     
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  20. Robert Borden

    Robert Borden Member+

    Chelsea
    Canada
    Apr 19, 2017
    Toronto, Ontario
    Nat'l Team:
    Canada
    What's your view on the USSF trolling Iran by removing the symbol on their flag on social media? That too could provide unnecessary "motivation" against the US, no?
     
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  21. Three and Three

    Three and Three Member+

    Sep 13, 2015
    Club:
    New England Revolution
    Idiotic. A head should roll. And players should have words.
     
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  22. Clint Eastwood

    Clint Eastwood Member+

    Dec 23, 2003
    Somerville, MA
    Club:
    FC Dallas
    Its particularly true as these three nations don't have WCQers to play for the 2026 cycle.
    All of them are going to be seeking games on a high level that matter. Qatar did the same this most recent cycle. One will remember that they actually did pretty well at the Gold Cup, which made their dismal performance in this WC somewhat surprising.

    The importance of the Nations League grows as a tournament with games that matter. Canada needs to take care of business against Honduras in the group stage (after losing on the road in the first leg) or that's another lost opportunity.

    Consider also that both Mexico and Canada missed out on the Olympics. Another lost opportunity for their young players.

    its tough scheduling games when all of the other big nations are playing WCQers, Nations League, continental tournaments, etc. Its easier said than done. So getting into an expanded Copa America would be fantastic for all involved.

    I won't be surprised if the USMNT and Canada schedule yearly friendlies in the more difficult windows. Why not? Building this rivalry is rewarding for all involved.
     
  23. superdave

    superdave Member+

    Jul 14, 1999
    VB, VA
    Club:
    DC United
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Not aging well

    :ROFLMAO::):ROFLMAO::ROFLMAO:
     
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  24. gomichigan24

    gomichigan24 Member+

    Jul 15, 2002
    Club:
    Manchester United FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Not for the Iranian players, who by and large are not supportive of the regime. The Iranian government is mad, but they aren't the ones on field. The current Iranian flag is a creation of the Islamic Republic, and for a lot of Iranians do not view it as the true flag of Iran.

    I'm not worried about it being motivation for Iran, but I think Klinsmann comments on the other hand, do have the potential to give to be motivating to the Iranian players.
     
  25. Robert Borden

    Robert Borden Member+

    Chelsea
    Canada
    Apr 19, 2017
    Toronto, Ontario
    Nat'l Team:
    Canada
    Totally get it, the players aren't supporters of the regime. However, doesn't mean that "who's" doing the criticizing doesn't matter to them. I think that's what triggered their media the most.
     

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