Okay, I understand (sort of) why Britain is backing us up. But someone with some reasonable knowledge of and access to the Spanish media needs to help me understand why Spain is up to its eyeballs in Bush's sillyness. I realize that they have had their own terrorism issues, and that must be informing the decision-making to a certain degree. But, quite frankly I always thought the Spanish government was a bit more credulous than this. I'm being honest. I really want to know.
Is it a coincidence that the 2 European countries who have suffered the most from homegrown terrorism are same 2 out front in support of the war? Then again maybe they don't have an "angle", they actually agree with Bush on the need for this war.
Yes, because this war has nothing to do with the war on terrorism. Even Britain doesn't necessarily agree what we need a war. They agree that Hussein has to go, but they'd be pleased as punch if no shots were fired. They're just more willing than most countries to use force to make it happen.
@ cosmosRIP What does terrorism have to do with the Iraq-crisis? @ Father Ted Do you really believe that the US don´t have economic interests in Iraq? domingo
I know and that is the problem here. No one talks about al Qaida anymore. they even try to craete links between bin Laden and Saddam - with no proof! Spain´s Aznar is just trying to have good relationship with Bush, it might be useful! domingo
Not only that, but Holland has a huge problem with Muslim immigration, many of whom are radicals (in fairness, so do France and to a lesser extent Germany, but they are much bigger countries and far more able to absorb the immigrants), and of course the Eastern European countries have their own history of living under brutal dictators and know that this is a bad thing. France and Germany, meanwhile, have been living in splendid, ignorant bliss all throughout recent history. Alex
Axis Alex calling someone else "ignorant"? Quick! Someone call Alanis! Anyway, France has hardly been ignorant of their experience with Muslim immigrants. Does "Algieria" ring any bells? And, as sad as this is to say, what about your soulmate Monsieur LePen? I can tell you from knowing many French people, including north Africans and from personal observation during my trip to France that there is great tension between the ethnic French and north African immigrants. And the French as a whole are only too well aware of this.
How could Germany and France absorb the immigrants better because they are bigger countries than Holland is? I think the rate is more important. domingo
Yeah, yeah. Has anyone bothered to check what the Spanish press or politicians have been saying? What's the word on the street in Madrid? Barcelona?
Do you honestly believe the US will leave the region anytime soon regardless of what happens in Iraq? I don't. And do you really think that the Muslim extremists will accept an Iraqi government that they see as a US puppet after we've gone in, removed Saddam (killing many many Iraqis in the process), set up our occupation force for Vishnu knows how many years and installed our new government? [edit]And that's if everything goes absolutely smoothly for us in the postwar Middle East which, given the Bushies' horribly incompetent build-up to war, is far from guaranteed.[/edit]
Spain's Angle Of course Aznar is trying to gain Bush's favor. He gains a lot by doing that. I haven't been on the streets of Madrid or Barcelona lately but I did go to a party 2 weeks ago hosted by Spanish Teachers here to teach for a year. Armando, one of the teachers, made a good point. "Aznar wants to be closer to the West." "He would rather support someone that basically has the same values as he does, than any other country with other values........especially a Muslim country." I told him that it made sense and I asked him why? And he replied, "History, remember we were occupied for 700 years by the Moors before we kicked them out, it's all historical."
An article in the LA Times posted yesterday pointed out that Aznar does see it as part of the war on terror. You and I may disagree with his view but it something that has lead him to support Bush. I will link the article as soon as I can.
Aznar and I will have to disagree, especially since Bush was talking about Iraq during his campaign to become president, well before 9/11 and the War on Terror.
Go to the LA Times website and scroll to the bottom. The article is in the Sunday Opinion. You have to register to be able to read it. It's a good read IMO. From the LA Times article. "Prime Minister Aznar is certainly pro-European in philosophy, but the factor that most propelled him into an active international role was the 800 killings perpetrated over the years by the Basque terrorist group ETA. In Aznar's view, the Nationalist Party, which governs the Basque provinces of Spain, has not adequately combated the separatist organization. Convinced of the need for international agreements to crush terrorism, Aznar worked tirelessly during his 2002 presidency of the European Union to secure cooperation from other members of the European community. The revelation that the Sept. 11 horror in New York City and the Pentagon was in part planned from within Spain convinced him that only a global drive against terror would succeed. This is where his views have converged with Bush's. If Aznar insists on supporting the U.S. president, it is not because he has swallowed Bush's arguments but because his own campaign heads down the same road. "We will fight shoulder to shoulder with our American friends," he said before visiting Bush at his Texas ranch last month, "to bring an end to terrorism anywhere." Aznar has attempted to take Europe with him on the crusade against evil. That has proved more difficult than he imagined. The European Union was from its inception focused on an alliance of French and Germans, cultures that have always thought themselves superior to the Mediterranean states -- indeed, to the rest of the world. When Aznar recently drew up a letter of support for pressuring Iraq, it was signed by eight European states but not by France and Germany, which have become more and more resentful of the unprecedented initiatives being taken by upstart Spain." There is more on what's driving Aznar to support Bush. Again pretty interesting IMO.
Thanks Diego and Levante, that was what I was looking for. Where do France and Germany get off dismissing Spain as an upstart? They are Johnny-come-latelies to the European Superpower Club in historical terms. So they had a little 200 year hiatus, big deal. Spain ran half the world when France and Germany were weak little principalities.
Germany's population is about 80 million. France's is about 60 million. Holland's is about 15 million. X number of immigrants clearly have a much bigger impact on Holland than they do on Germany or France. Alex
I don't know about Russia, but I read somewhere that the revenue that France derives from Irag dwarfs in comparison with its take from American tourists.
How the f**** did we get an inquiry regarding Spain's internal rationale for being a member of our coalition of the willing to France-bashing and immigration? Take it somewhere else!
No problem. It's also political...remember, Bush is looking for Chile or Mexico to get the final vote and he had Aznar travel to Mexico to talk to Fox. I don't know if Aznar went to Chile, but apparently, Bush was hoping that "cultural and historical ties" between both Spain and Mexico would help him get their vote.
Okay, pardon my ignorance, but isn't that like, totally stupid? Or are there genuinely warm feelings between Spain & Mexico despite the whole conquistadores and colonialism thing?