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Discussion in 'Politics & Current Events' started by MtMike, Oct 21, 2003.
What if Terri Schiavo Were a Dog?
i haven't followed this issue at all, so i can't speak to the facts. from his perspective, i understand his anger with the decision, however, the PETA thing is completely irrelevant to the conversation.
The writer of that article is sticking his head in the same jar as Rush Limbaugh.
Terri Shiavo had a DNR request, which her husband is invoking. She's been essentially brain-dead for 13 years, but her parents are holding out hope. She's had some moments captured on video and broadcast via internet. This is pulling at some people's heartstrings.
This is a family tragedy, made worst by the media circus and made even worst by the parents filing abuse charges against the husband, so Terri's body will be "preserved as evidence."
Adam McManus!!! He used to live around here. He's a real nutjob.
I'm not sure if the author is slamming PETA, the Florida gov't, Terri's husband, or all the above. But one thing is for sure, the PETA issue is what has been dogging a lot of media sources through this situation. We have in place groups that provide for poor little animals, but not for humans.
This is why the PETA thing is relevant --- why don't we have a group such as PETH (People for the Ethical Treatment of Humans) which would stand up for Terri, the homeless, etc.?
This Terri thing will be around as long as Florida believes receiving food through a tube IS life-support.
The analogy is stupid because we kill thousands of animals to "end their suffering" every day, and PETA hasn't stopped that.
If anything the average pet lover is more concerned about his/her loved one's quality of life than Schiavo's parents are.
Bullsh!t. She never had any DNR request. That's something he made up after she got sick. There is no paperwork to that effect. The husband is just a sick creep looking for a financial windfall after her death. Her parents have begged him to step aside and let them take care of her. He has moved on with his life, living with another women (has two children with her). He wants the money, plain and simple, otherwise he'd give her parents their wish. Starving a patient to death is just simply cruel.
Not surprisingly, obie, you are on the wrong side of this argument. If you watch the video, Terri Schiavo is not in a vegetative state. She simply requires food support to survive.
"She left no written instructions about her wishes should she be incapacitated, but Michael Schiavo said she made it clear before her collapse that she did not want to be sustained with life support."
No sign of a DNR request anywhere
A person who is brain dead, or even "essentially" brain dead needs a respirator to survive. They are unresponsive to any and everything. She was not on a respirator.
She doesn't look look "essentially brain-dead" here in 2001...
Where do you come up with this crap? When did her parents file abuse charges againt the husband? Here's something that's not made up, the husband "collected more than $1 million in malpractice settlements stemming from his wife's collapse, but only about $50,000 of that settlement remains."
I'm torn with this case, personally I don't think she should be kept alive if it goes against her wishes but we don't know what they really are. I DO think it's cruel to let her starve to death.
Now I know I'm right.
"Court-appointed doctors have described Schiavo as being in a vegetative state, caused when her heart stopped in 1990 from a suspected chemical imbalance."
Fox, NBC, and CNN all leave in the AP term "persistent vegetative state" to describe her. Please, Dr. McCracken, explain to us all how the court's doctors erred in their judgement.
And, if her doctors are to be believed, she requires a brain transplant in order to have a cognitive thought.
The question I have now is, what does Jeb have to do in this now after she has been this way for 13 years?
The legislature does things overnight and Jeb inks the "law" to bypass the courts. This comes down to a struggle between the balance of powers and the side note is the lady, her family and her husband.
Couldn't he tried for having two wives?
By now, he is married by common law to the other woman, right? He should step aside and allow her family decide...if the lady herself can't do it.
Who is paying her hospital bill anyway?
If the family wants to do it, then I'd say allow them.
"Randall Terry, president for the Society for Truth and Justice, has acted as a family spokesman. Terry is co-founder of the anti-abortion group Operation Rescue."
Kinda makes you wonder what is deemed "cognitive thought" when linked to the abortion cause, pro/con.
"Greer's order also banned the parents from spoon-feeding their daughter after the tube is pulled. They believe they can keep her alive that way."
Why would the judge ban the parents from feeder her on their own?
"Terri Schiavo's feeding tube was removed briefly in May 2001, but another judge intervened."
Where was the national outrage then? Jeb?
"The two sides have charged each other of wanting to control $700,000 won in a malpractice suit in 1992. Half of that money has been spent on treatment and legal bills."
Kinda goes against what was said before. Yea, the guy went out and spent all the money.
"Five judges were appointed by Greer to provide a diagnosis. Two chosen by Michael Schiavo said her condition was irreversible. Two chosen by the family said her condition can improve.
The fifth physician, Dr. Peter Bambakidis, came down on the side of Michael Schiavo, but the family said he had a conflict of interest in the case."
At worst, 3 out of 5 against the family. Not great odds. Mdeical science is not really an exact science, it always changes.
i can't believe it's come to this ian... but you are 100% correct to the bone holmes
paging michael schiavo... michael schiavo! your table in HELL is ready!
I just want to highlight the silly thought that a still photograph like this has any meaning. I mean, it's not like she's trying to nail a bike from the PK spot or something.
I has an obvious meaning, it proves that she's not brain dead like a particular poster was arguing. If sh e were brain dead that picture would look a lot different.
This shouldn't be a major news story...
I spent several years working for a non-profit that provided education to professionals on subjects where law and medicine overlap, and end of life issues were one of our biggest topics, so I think I know a little more than most of the people who've posted to this thread so far, and I am absolutely sickened by the behavior of the woman's parents, the Florida Legislature and Jeb Bush.
A few facts that are relevant to this discussion:
--The term persistent vegetative state as used by neurologists means the permanent cessation of all higher brain functions. Although PVS patients are not permanently unconscious and even appear to interact at times, there's nothing happening above the lizard brain level, and the chances of recovery (there was exactly 1 recorded instance of someone returning from PVS during the 20 years ending in 1993) start out minimal and go down from there. If this woman has been in a persistent vegetative state for 13 years; she's gone, and she's not coming back.
--If the parents truly believe that their daughter could be effectively fed by mouth, then they are almost certainly in denial. PVS patients are fed through a tube precisely because they don't swallow properly and would quickly succumb to either suffocation or infection from food particles in the pulmonary system.
--There are many organizations that define themselves as acting on behalf of incompetent adults. Unfortunately, a number of the most vocal ones opposed to withdrawal of treatment are actually anti-abortion groups worried that the logic of the right to die would be transferred to the abortion question. Their positions are contrary to case law in most of the states where the question of whether to withdraw treatment has been adjudicated.
--Providing food and water through a tube into the GI tract is medical treatment, this is why any facility that provides tube feeding must have properly accredited nurses doing it.
--In the Cruzan case in 1991, the US Supreme Court ruled that all medical patients have the right to refuse treatment, including tube feeding.
--If the patient is incompetent, the person acting on the patient's behalf must establish to a court's satisfaction that the patient would have refused this treatment if given the ability to do so.
So, in this case, the husband has persuaded not one but two courts that Terry Schiavo would have wanted to be kept alive in this situation. Her parents refuse to accept that judgement and somehow persuaded the legislature to intervene. If the law that Jeb Bush so eagerly signed is a general raising of the bar on the ability to withdraw treatment, then it goes against nearly all of the case law on this question from the last decade. If it's specific to this case, then I can't see how it's anything but a violation of the seperation of powers.
The only good I see coming out of this case is another reminder of the importance of having documentary evidence of how you want to be treated if you become incompetent.
Really? How so?
I have no solid opinion on the issue of Terry Schiavo.
I do have an opinion on that article that started this thread, however. What a load of hooey. I'm assuming that since WorldNetDaily is merely an online reactionary "news" source, they don't require their columnists to meet minimum standards of reporting and/or common sense.
Re: This shouldn't be a major news story...
Excellent analysis. Very informative.
That seems to be the issue from the one or two articles I've read. Shocking that a state like Florida would have a controversial issue over the power of legislatures vs. the courts, huh?
Much as Dan Loney hates "me too" posts. . .
I assume you are referring to me, and I never said that she was brain dead. I said she needed a brain transplant in order to have a cognitive thought. There's nothing that I have seen that contradicts that.
We can debate forever the issue of whether or not the woman expressed her opinions on persistent vegetative state and not come to a conclusion. The issue of who is her legal guardian, though, is completely clear under the law: it's her husband. The question of whether or not the marriage is on the skids (and how could it not be in his mind after 13 years of her in this state?) is irrelevant, just as it has been irrelevant in every other similar case in medical history.
If anything happened to me like this, I want my wife to be my legal guardian, not my mother. I haven't lived with my mother for 15 years and she has not idea what I would or would not want.
Nope, I wasn't. I didn't see the term brain dead in any of your posts.
The person I was referring to has yet to reply to my initial post.
It is horrifying to me that the legislature has stepped in in this case.
Have you ever seen someone who is brain dead? They cannot breathe on their own. She is able to breathe on her own. If she were brain dead, as someone claimed and it wasn't Obie, then she'd be hooked up.
I'm not arguing that she's not a vegetable. It's clear that she's a vegetable and she's not coming back. She's not brain dead though. I DO believe that her parents are dillusional and it was wrong for Jeb to do what he did. On the other hand I DO believe that it's cruel to let her starve to death.
I have been hearing that this only has allowed a ten day window to keep her on support, ie: feeding tubes, medications, etc.
After the ten days, Florida will not enforce the "law" they just passed.
After 13 years, what is expected to happen in the next 10 days?
Sorry, now I see what you were referring to.