Hi everyone, I've been looking into the history of the Confederations Cup. Although widely criticized, and described as “useless” by many, I thought this tournament was quite interesting, and allowed us to observe teams from all over the world, often a year before the World Cup. For a reminder of the facts, if we stick strictly to that, the competition, formerly known as the King Fahd Cup, was considered to be the ancestor of the Confederations Cup, and was created in 1992, for two editions, before being taken over by FIFA in 1997. It was abolished in 2017, no doubt due to its disinterestedness and FIFA's desire to phagocitate everything, preferring instead to create a FIFA Club World Cup. For a reminder of the participating teams for each FIFA Confederations Cup: 1992: Argentina (winner, CONMEBOL), Saudi Arabia (AFC and hosts), USA (CONCACAF), Ivory Coast (CAF) 1995: Denmark (winner, UEFA), Argentina (CONMEBOL), Mexico (CONCACAF), Nigeria (CAF), Saudi Arabia (host), Japan (AFC) 1997: Brazil (winner, World Cup), Uruguay (CONMEBOL), Mexico (CONCACAF), South Africa (CAF), Czech Republic (UEFA, runner-up), Australia (OFC), UAE (AFC, runner-sups), Saudi Arabia (AFC, host) 1999: Mexico (winner, CONCACAF), Germany (UEFA), Saudi Arabia (AFC), Bolivia (CONMEBOL, runner-up), Egypt (CAF), USA (CONCACAF), Brazil (World Cup, CONMEBOL), New Zealand (OFC) 2001: France (winner, World Cup, UEFA), Japan (AFC, co-host), South Korea (co-host), Brazil (CONMEBOL), Cameroon (CAF), Canadan (CONCACAF), Australia (OFC), Mexico (FIFA Confederations Cup 99' winner) 2003: France (winner, UEFA), Brazil (World Cup), Japan (AFC); Colombia (CONMEBOL), USA (CONCACAF), Cameroon (CAF), Turkey (best place at WC 2002 as UEFA nation after Germany) 2005: Brazil (winner, World Cup), Germany (host), Mexico (CONCACAF), Tunisia (CAF), Greece (UEFA), Argentina (CONMEBOL runner-up), Japan (AFC), Australia (OFC) 2009: Brazil (winner, CONMEBOL), South Africa (host), Italy (World Cup), USA (CONCACAF), Iraq (AFC), Egypt (CAF), Spain (UEFA), New Zealand (OFC) 2013: Brazil (winner, host), Spain (World Cup), Japan (AFC), Mexico (CONCACAF), Uruguay (CONMEBOL), Tahiti (OFC), Italy (UEFA runner-up), Nigeria (CAF) 2017: Germany (winner, World Cup), Russia (host), Australia (AFC), Chile (CONMEBOL), Mexico (CONCACAF), New Zealand (OFC), Portugal (UEFA), Cameroon (CAF) The Artemio Franchi Cup can also be considered a precursor to the FIFA Confederations, with only CONMEBOL and UEFA representatives represented in a single match: 1985: France (winner) vs. Uruguay 1993: Argentina (winner) vs Denmark 2022: Argentina (winner) vs Italy The Taça das Nações is also a competition that could act as a sort of mini Confederations Cup, with only one edition in 1964, with emblematic teams like Brazil, Argentina (winner), England and Portugal. The interest of this thread is to try to transcribe the FIFA Confederations Cup, if it had existed since the start of the FIFA World Cup. Before 1930, only the Copa America existed as a continental competition for a confederation, furthermore the Olympic Games could serve as a "representation" of the FIFA Confederations Cup, although the absence of South American countries before 1924 is a debate. I will therefore focus on the hypothetical rewriting of the Confederations Cup, considering that the competition takes place every 4 years, and one year before an edition of the FIFA World Cup. Which gives us 1933, 1937, 1941, 1953, 1957, 1961, 1965, 1969, 1973, 1977, 1981, 1985, 1989, 1993, and we can also put back 2021-22. I will try each time to take as participants the winner of the previous World Cup, the runner-up, the winner of the Copa America, the host of the next World Cup, as well as the best teams from the different confederations during the earlier editions of the World Cup. Once the different continental competitions are in place, I will integrate the winners of the continental cups, always the winner of the previous edition of the World Cup, the host of the future World Cup. A maximum total of 8 teams will be chosen. Please, if you have any ideas or corrections for me, especially regarding the years preceding the appearance of the UEFA Euro, CAN, AFC Cup, CONCACAF Gold Cup and OFC Nations Cup, let me know. It is a collaborative project. Then we can discuss the potential winners of each edition! Hope this thread will be interesting for you! IceBlood34
Here is the list of potential participants for all reworked editions of the FIFA Confederations Cup: 1933: Uruguay (WC winner), Argentina (WC runner-up and CA 29 champions), USA (best CONCACAF team in WC 30), Yugoslavia (best European team in WC 30'), Italy (host), Austria (winner of Central European International Cup 31-32), Egypt (only African team during that time, withdrew for WC 30), Wales (winner British Home Championship 32-33) 1937: Italy (WC winner and CEIC 33-35 winner), Argentina (CA 37 winner), Czechoslovakia (WC 34' runner-up), Austria (CEIC 33-35 runner-up), France (host), USA (best CONCACAF team at WC 34), Egypt (CAF team at WC 34), Wales (winner BHC 36-37) 1941: Italy (WC winner), Argentina (CA 41 winner), Hungary (winner of CEIC 36-38 until interruption), Sweden (best UEFA team after Italy and Hungary in WC 38), Brazil (host), Cuba (CONCACAF team qualified for WC 38), Dutch East Indies/Indonesia (AFC team qualified in WC 38), England (winner BHC 38-39) 1953: Uruguay (WC winner), Paraguay (CA53 winner), Hungary (winner CEIC 48-53), England (winner BHC 52-53), Switzerland (host), USA (best CONCACAF team in WC 50), Brazil (WC runner-up), India (AFC team qualified for WC 50 even if withdrew) 1957: West Germany (WC winner), England (winner BHC 56-57), Argentina (CA 57 winner), Hungary (WC runner-up), Sweden (host), Mexico (CONCACAF team qualified in WC 54), Egypt (CAN 57 winner), South Korea (AFC Cup 56 winner) 1961: Brazil (WC winner), Soviet Union (Euro 60 winner), Egypt (CAN 59 winner), South Korea (AFC Cup 60 winner), Chile (host), Mexico (CONCACAF team qualified in WC 58), Sweden (WC 58 runner-up), Argentina (CA59 winner) 1965: Brazil (WC winner), Spain (Euro64 winner), Bolivia (CA 63 winner), Ghana (CAN 63), England (host), Israel (AFC cup 64 winner), Mexico (CONCACAF team qualified in WC 62), Czechoslovakia (WC runner-up) 1969: England (WC winner), Uruguay (CA67 winner), Republic Democratic of Congo (CAN 68 winner), Italy (Euro 68 winner), Mexico (host), Iran (AFC cup 68 winner), Western Germany (WC runner-up), North Korea (only AFC team qualified for WC 66) 1973: Brazil (WC winner), Congo Brazzaville (CAN 72 winner), West-Germany (Euro 72 and host), Italy (WC runner-up), Iran (AFC cup 72 winner), Mexico (best CONCACAF team in WC 70), Uruguay (best CONMEBOL team after Brazil in WC 70), New Zealand (OFC Cup 73 winner) 1977: West Germany (WC winner), Czechoslovakia (Euro 76 winner), Peru (CA 75 winner), Iran (AFC cup 76 winner), Argentina (host), Haiti (only CONCACAF team qualified for WC 74), Australia (only OFC team qualified for WC 74), Morocco (CAN 76 winner) 1981: Argentina (WC winner), West Germany (Euro 80 winner), Australia (OFC Cup 80 winner), Paraguay (CA 79 winner), Nigeria (CAN 80 winner), Spain (host), Kuwait (AFC Cup 80 winner), Mexico (only CONCACAF team qualified for WC 78) 1985: Italy (WC winner), France (Euro 84 winner), Uruguay (CA 83 winner), Mexico (host), New Zealand (best OFC team qualified for WC 82), Cameroon (CAN 84 winner), Saudi Arabia (AFC Cup 84), Honduras (best CONCACAF team in WC 82) 1989: Argentina (WC winner), Netherlands (Euro 88 winner), Uruguay (CA 87 winner), Italy (host), Mexico (best CONCACAF team in WC 86), Cameroon (CAN 88 winner), Saudi Arabia (AFC Cup 88 winner), Australia (best OFC team who through WC 86 qualifiers, lost in playoffs) 1993(including correct format): West Germany (WC winner), Denmark (Euro 92 winner), Argentina (CA 91 winner), Ivory Coast (CAN 92 winner), Japan (AFC Cup 92 winner), USA (host), Honduras (CONCACAF Gold Cup 91 runner-up), Australia (best OFC team through OFC WC 90 qualifiers, if we exempt Israel, also winner of Trans-Tasman Cup 91) 1997: current teams, exempt Germany (Euro 96 winner) instead of Czech Republic, France (host) should replace UAE. Brazil (World Cup), Uruguay (CONMEBOL), Mexico (CONCACAF), South Africa (CAF), Germany (UEFA), Australia (OFC), France (host), Saudi Arabia (AFC) 2001: current teams + Italy (Euro 2000 runner-up) instead of Mexico. France (World Cup, UEFA), Japan (AFC, co-host), South Korea (co-host), Brazil (CONMEBOL), Cameroon (CAF), Canadan (CONCACAF), Australia (OFC), Italy (Euro 2000 runner-up) 2021-2022: France (WC winner), Argentina (CA 21 winner), Italy (Euro 21 winner), Senegal (CAN 21 winner), Japan (AFC Cup 21 runner-up), Qatar (AFC cup 21 winner and host), USA (CONCACAF Gold Cup 21 winner), New Zealand (best OFC team through WC 2018 qualifiers) Can you give us your opinions on the potential winners for each edition?
I will try to make an attempt to designate the potential winners for each edition, although I do not have 1/10th of the knowledge of some on the forum: 1933: Based on the results of the 1934 World Cup, although Uruguay were absent in protest from 1930, it seemed that their golden age had passed. Argentina comes out in the first match against Sweden. Not knowing the real level of Wales, I would say that the competition is between Italy and Austria (including a victory in WC34 for the Italians. Winner for me: Italy or Austria 1937: It is difficult to know the level of the Argentinians given that they did not participate in the following World Cup (WC 1938). Italy is once again the favorite, with Austria once again potentially not far behind. The other competitors would not have made up for it. Without a doubt about a victory for Italy, with Austria and Argentina close. 1941: If we move away from the Second World War context, it is likely that Argentina was able to put an end to the hegemony of the Italians, with players like Moreno, Sastre, or even Pedernera presenting Argentina as a strong favorite 1953: With the Hungarian team, at the top of its game, I think the Hungarians would have won the trophy, with little competition I think 1957: This is perhaps the tightest edition. Given the performance of Western Germany during the 1958 WC edition, we could estimate that they could win it, it is possible that certain teams would also have bothered the world champions, with the English or the Hungarians. 1961: Brazil were undoubtedly a good team and it is likely that with Pelé they would have won. Do not underestimate teams like England, Soviet Union or Chile at home, but Brazil would undoubtedly have won 1965: As explained by @Vegan10 , Brazil crushed England the year before during the Taça das Nações (5-1). It's difficult to estimate the level a year later, but Brazil's friendlies this year are very good against the Europeans. It is possible that the English, at home, could have won, as they did later, at the 1966 World Cup, but Brazil was probably better. It's quite difficult, especially since Spain is also a good team at the time with Luis Suares Miramontes. Brazil is still the favorite in my mind. 1969: Without doubt the tightest competition. We can estimate that Italy, Uruguay, Western Germany or even England would have had a chance of winning it. I still think that the Italians would have shown their difference. 1973: It would have been a match between Brazil and Western Germany, I think the Germans, with Gerd Muller and Beckenbauer in the lead might have won it 1977: It is likely that the Argentines would have won at home, with the West German champions close behind them. 1981: Given the dynamics displayed by the teams in 1982, it is a safe bet that the West Germans would undoubtedly have won this edition. 1985: It is very likely, like the Artemio Franchi Cup, that the French could win this edition, with the Mexicans and Uruguayans potentially tough opponents 1989: The final would probably have been Argentina vs Italy, like in the semi-final of the 1990 World Cup. The Netherlands a little behind. Very difficult to estimate a real winner. 1993: Considering the slightly modified edition, it is possible that the victory would be between Germany and Argentina, with potentially the Germans having a slight advantage. Denmark, and USA at home would have been interesting to see 1997: Also a big debate, I don't know if France a year before the World Cup could have won Brazil in this edition, which I see as the favorite. I think the Brazilians would probably have won the French in this edition. 2001: If we include Italy in this edition, I don't know if it would have changed much, although Brazil was the favorite, France won the Confederations Cup, facing a Brazil sending its B team. we include Italy it could have made a good match, but I think the French dynamic was still better. 2021-2022: Looking back to WC 2022, Argentina and France would clearly have been the two favorites for final victory. It would have been even closer because France would also have had Karim Benzema in great shape (Ballon d'Or 2022). Difficult to predict a winner given the good dynamics, although the French during the summer of 2022 did slightly less well, while the Argentinians exploded the Italians 3-0 in the Artemio Franchi Cup. Perhaps a narrow victory for the Argentines. Here is the list of winners for me: 1933: Italy 1937: Italy (2) 1941: Argentina 1953: Hungary 1957: West Germany 1961: Brazil 1965: Brazil (2) 1969: Italy (3) 1973: West Germany (2) 1977: Argentina (2) 1981: West Germany (3) 1985: France 1989: Argentina/Italy (3/4) (1992: Argentina) 1993: Germany (4) (1995: Denmark) 1997: Brazil (3) (1999: Mexico) 2001: France (2) (2003: France) 2005: Brazil (4) 2009: Brazil (5) 2013: Brazil (6) 2017: Germany (5) 2021-2022: Argentina (4) Rankings: Brazil (6) Germany (5) Argentina (3,5) Italy (3,5) France (2) Hungary (1) What is your opinion guys?
Already decided: 2005: Brazil 2009: Brazil 2013: Brazil 2017: Germany My predicted winners: 1933: Austria 1937: Austria 1941: England 1953: Hungary 1957: Argentina 1961: Brazil 1965: Brazil 1969: England 1973: Italy 1977: West Germany 1981: Argentina 1985: France 1989: Netherlands 1993: Germany 1997: Brazil 2001: Italy (considering what team France actually sent to the tournament) 2021: Argentina Rankings: Brazil (6) Argentina (3) (West 1+) Germany (2 = 3) England (2) Austria (2) Italy (2) Hungary (1) France (1) Netherlands (1)
I would have selected England as my predicted winner in 1933 and 1937, instead of Austria, if they were on your list of participating nations. Also Brazil instead of England in 1969, Netherlands instead of West Germany in 1977, Brazil instead of Argentina 1981, Brazil instead of France 1985, Brazil instead of Germany in 1993, and Argentina instead of Italy 2001. Brazil to win in 2017 I would also have predicted if they had actually participated. Probably the best team in world that year, and Germany sent an inexperienced team. Considering all this, my final list would be: 1933: England 1937: England 1941: England 1953: Hungary 1957: Argentina 1961: Brazil 1965: Brazil 1969: Brazil 1973: Italy 1977: Netherlands 1981: Brazil 1985: Brazil 1989: Netherlands 1993: Brazil 1997: Brazil 2001: Argentina (2017: Brazil) 2021: Argentina Rankings: Brazil (11) Argentina (3) England (3) Netherlands (2) Hungary (1) Italy (1)
Thank you for your analysis. I'd really like other people to be able to follow in your footsteps! Your second analyses are interesting, but the concept of the Confederations Cup is unfortunately not the same as having the "best" teams of the moment. It's clear that some teams miss out on certain editions, even though they're "at the moment" in the best shape, but that's the way it is, that's the Confederations Cup places system, which is why I think your first list is more in line with the subject, but thank you for your second suggestion. Could you explain more about your ideas for the first list? I saw that we had a few differences.
Sure, I can start with pre WWII, and Austria 1933. Head to head: Italy-Austria 2-1, 1931 (first Italian win in 11th match between them). Austria-Italy 2-1, 1932. Italy-Austria 2-4, Feb. 1934. In summer 1933 Austria were, slightly, ahead of Italy on eloratings.net. Behind Argentina and England (England had, with a slightly understrength team, made a 1-1 draw away to Italy in May. Probably five or six of the players selected would have played if the opponent were Scotland). Argentina is ranked first, but football was quite clustered before WWII, and I think Argentina, Uruguay and Brazil is assigned too high starting scores, which affect the ranking. Austria were considered the best continental team around this time (2H 1931-1934), and was probably only the second non-british opponent/match England took really serious; England winning 4-3 at home in Dec. 1932. First was the 7-1 win home against Spain in Dec. 1931, after an understrength England had lost 3-4 away to Spain in 1929. It was England's first loss against a continental team and seen a bit of an embarrassment. Only the two defenders Cooper and Blenkinsop would probably have played if the opponent were Scotland. The third match for England was the 4-3 win against Italy at Highbury in Nov. 1934, after Italy now officially were the World Champions (though it wouldn't have happened without Mussolini and the government hand-picking referees that gave very favourable decisions for the hosts). It's possible to argue for a place for England in 1933. The British Home Championships were always one year/season and three matches played. But that makes it a bit flawed, since who plays home and not could decide the winner some years. Ideally everyone should have played each other both home and away. So maybe two BHCs combined should be used to decide the candidate. It would give England 1933, but still Wales 1937. Also, since there were no substitution, an injury could decide the outcome of matches (and the BHC). It happened to England against Wales in Feb. 1936 for example; Ted Drake having to leave the pitch just before half time with England leading 1-0 at home, it ended 2-1 to Wales after playing second half 11 against 10. Something similar happened in 1933 when Wales also won 2-1. ----------- Moving on to 1937. Head to head: Italy-Austria 2-2, May 1936. Austria-Italy 2-0*, March 1937. Austria won two matches (2-1 away to France) and drew two (1-1 home to Scotland & 2-2 away to Hungary) in 1H 1937. Italy won three (2-0 home to Hungary, 1-0 away to Czechoslovakia and 3-1 away to Norway) and lost one (Austria). It would be quite open, hard to say what Argentina could have done here too. But looking at the two recent head to head matches between Austria and Italy, I would think Austria is most likely to win. --------- England 1941 results: 5 wins, one loss (started with a 2-3 loss to Scotland in Feb. 1941, won the rest; three against Wales & two against Scotland). https://www.rsssf.org/tablese/eng-warvic-intres.html Argentina won seven and drew two matches, but only played Uruguay once (1-0 home) and none against Brazil. Hard to know if Argentina would be able to beat England in 1941. South American and European teams not played against each other since World Cup 1930 that I can remember to have seen. I would think that the Argentinians had better technique in 1941, but England better organised, stronger/better trained and more effective playing style. Argentina first plays England in May 1951, losing 1-2 at Wembley.
*England beat Italy 3-2 in 1934, not 4-3* 1957 Argentina vs. West Germany Argentina were second in the Elo ranking through whole year, behind Hungary, except a brief first place in start of April 1957 after defeating Brazil 3-0. Argentina won six matches, lost one and drew two in 1H 1957. The loss came in last match of 1957 South American Championship/Copa América, 1-2 against Peru – after Argentina had already won the tournament. West Germany started 1957 7th in the Elo ranking, and in the summer they were 9th after losing 1-3 at home to Scotland. They beat Austria 3-2 and Netherlands 2-1 earlier in the year. West Germany were not really World Champion quality. They were lucky that a weird system in 1954 resulted in best teams playing each other in the knockout rounds until final, and weaker teams playing each other. West Germany were best of the weaker, while Hungary, as best team in the World at the time, were the other finalist. Beating Hungary was a great achievement though, but there were many reasons, and theories, why it happened. West Germany beat Argentina 3-1 in 1958 World Cup, their first ever meeting. But that was after Argentina had lost three key players in attack to Italian football (Sívori, Maschio, Angelillo). First choice goalkeeper Rogelio Domínguez also left, for Real Madrid, after becoming continental champions in 1957. 1969 England vs. Italy England were Elo number one, but in reality second best team after Brazil, I would say. Italy were fourth in the Elo rankings. Italy drew three matches (Mexico, East Germany & Bulgaria). No loss, one win (3-2 away to Mexico) in 1H 1969 England won six, drew two and lost one (1-2 away to Brazil in 1H 1969. Italy were European Champions, but had been a bit lucky, as well as having home advantage. In semifinal against Soviet Union they advanced on a coin toss, after drawing 0-0 after extra time. In final against Yugoslavia they were 10 minutes away from losing, but saved a 1-1 draw. They won a replay two days later 2-0. 1973 Italy vs. West Germany Italy had a great year, not conceding a goal whole year. Winning seven matches, and drawing one (0-0 Turkey, first match). They beat Brazil 2-0, England 1-0 & 2-0. West Germany lost to Argentina (2-3), Yugoslavia (0-1) & Brazil (0-1). All at home. Won two matches in 1H 1973. In 2H they won four and drew one. No loss. Italy and West Germany played each other in Italy 26 February 1974, match ended 0-0. 1977 West Germany vs. Argentina West Germany first place in Elo rankings. Argentina started year in 11th place. Finished 1H 1977 in 9th. West Germany beat Argentina 3-1 in Argentina 5 June 1977. 1981 Argentina vs. West Germany West Germany started and ended the year in first place in the Elo rankings, but for many months, including summer, they were number two (behind Brazil). West Germany started the year with losing 1-2 against Argentina in the little World Cup in Uruguay, after conceding two late goals. They also lost 1-4 against Brazil in the same tournament, and again at home in May, 1-2. They also won three matches in 1H 1981; beating Albania 2-0 Austria 2-0 and Finland 4-0. So three wins, three losses. Argentina were fifth in Elo rankings, but became third after beating West Germany, on 1 January. They also drew Brazil 1-1 on 4 January. These were the only matches Argentina played in 1H 1981. I would have Argentina as slight favourites to win, but the fact it's played in Europe (Spain) makes it more open. Would probably depend a bit on how well Maradona played. The teams also played a 1-1 draw in Argentina 24 March 1982. 1989 Netherlands vs. Argentina/Italy Netherlands were number one on Elo ranking from they won the final in Euro 1988 and until group stage in World Cup 1990. They had Rijkaard, Gullit (two goals) and van Basten (two goals) that had won the European Cup with Milan in 1989, winning the final 4-0. Also Ronald Koeman could be mentioned playing for the Dutch. Netherlands won three matches and drew one (1-1 home to West Germany) in 1H 1989. Argentina were 13th (1 January) to 22nd (16 July) in Elo ranking. Argentina lost one (0-1 to Colombia) and drew two (Ecuador 2-2, Chile 1-1). No wins in 1H 1989. They played lots of matches in July though; winning two (Chile & Uruguay 1-0), drawing three (0-0 to Ecuador, Bolivia & Paraguay, and losing 0-2 to Uruguay & Brazil. Italy were fifth in Elo ranking and won three matches (1-0 Denmark & Austria, 4-0 Hungary), drawing 2-2 against Uruguay and losing 0-1 to Romania in 1H 1989. Argentina & Italy played a 0-0 match 21 December 1989 in Cagliari. Argentina & Netherlands didn't play each other between 1979 and 1998. Italy beat Netherlands 1-0 at home in November 1988, and played a 0-0 match in February 1990 in Rotterdam. Both matches without Gullit.
1933: Italy vs Austria 1937: Italy (2) vs Austria (2) 1941: Argentina vs England 1953: Hungary vs Hungary 1957: West Germany vs Argentina 1961: Brazil vs Brazil 1965: Brazil (2) vs Brazil (2) 1969: Italy (3) vs England (2) 1973: West Germany (2) vs Italy 1977: Argentina (2) vs West Germany 1981: West Germany (3) vs Argentina (2) 1985: France vs France 1989: Argentina/Italy (3/4) vs Netherlands (1992: Argentina) 1993: Germany (4) vs Germany (2) (1995: Denmark) 1997: Brazil (3) vs Brazil (3) (1999: Mexico) 2001: France (2) vs Italy (2) (2003: France) 2005: Brazil (4) vs Brazil (4) 2009: Brazil (5) vs Brazil (5) 2013: Brazil (6) vs Brazil (6) 2017: Germany (5) vs Germany (3) 2021-2022: Argentina (4) vs Argentina (3) I've added the differences between the two of us in green, and our similar results in blue.