I'm a little concerned about the timing of Ray's trip to Argentina because of what is going on stateside while he's gone. Beginning next Wednesday in Charleston, SC is the CONCACAF U20 qualifying tournament for World Youth CHampionships, featuring the top U20 players from the US, Canada, Haiti and our good friends from El Salvador. Beginning Thursday are the conference tournaments of most of the major soccer conference including the ACC in Cary, NC, the Big East in Pitscatiway, NJ and the Big Ten tournament in State College, PA. There's also the Missouri Valley AND Conference USA tournaments going on at the same time in St. Louis. For a coach with so many holes in his roster, I find it a little disturbing that Ray would miss all these opportunities to scout so many players at the same time. Yeah, it's great that he's scouting talent in Argentina, where bargains can be had because of the economy. And yeah, maybe he knows he's going to take Alecko Eskandarian No. 1 or he's going to trade the pick altogether. But either way, I think Ray owes it to the organization and the fans to do due dilligence and scout as many quality young American players as possible, especially since United has so little to show for its last 2 drafts. Obviously Ray couldn't be at all the events mentioned. And, obviously Kasper and Trask will be able to handle some of them. But, for the sake og argument, let's say Kasper goes to Charleston and Trask does the ACC. That still leaves some talent that is not getting watched while Ray is dining on steaks en Las Pampas and hitting the nightlife in Buenos Airies. Basically, what I'm getting that is that I think Ray could have picked a better time to go to Argentina for a fortnight since he's missing some crucial scouting opportunities. Or, does he plan on passing over the likes of Kelly Gray and Kyle Martino again this year?
I see your point about about the various college guys who could help the team next year but I have to disagree with your conclusion and I think Ray has his priorities right. The first thing he has to do is re-form the core of the team and as we know that has to do with Moreno and Etcheverry. If he's to make any moves in this regard he has to know what he is moving to before he does it. Thus he has to find other players who can upgrade their contributions. It's safe to say that those players that he needs to see are not in college. Once Ray feels set with his core and the collateral changes that might come as a result of re-forming that core then he can concentrate on filling in the picture and that includes college guys. So I think it's more important for him to go abroad now to ID the players who will really impact this team next year. But I don't think that by doing so that he's clueless about the upcoming draft. he's seen some of the players and he has contacts who will help him evaluate the players well before the draft.
I would expect that Trask, Simpson and Kasper would be handling those. Ray has more contacts overseas than those three. Also I think they may be better choices to scout draft age talent.
I agree that the kind of impact players United so desperately need are more likely to be found in Argentina, and not toiling in the ranks of American college soccer. It seems to me that Ray has his priorities straight.
Agreed, Hudson is looking for what players have right now. The others can evaluate and predict what a college player might become.
I will point out that about this time last year I pointed out that United wasn't scouting the college ranks as thoroughly as needed and everyone told me not to worry. And then we had a bad draft, that was filled with a LOT of complaining from these ranks about how bad our draft was. And, the complaints many of you had turned out to be justified as the team passed on several players who could have contributed right away and all we've got to show for last year's draft is a kid who played about 15 minutes last year. Say what you will about the lack of impact of the draft, but I'll remind all that of the players we'll be watching play for the US next week, almost all of them came through the draft and many of them were taken after the first round. It pays to do one's homework. And on that thought, I'll also point out that the likes of Bruce Arena, when he was running United, and Thomas Rongen, when he was coach, always scouted the ACC tournament. And, I know from first hand experience because I've seen them there, that almost every MLS head coach attends the ACC tournament, year-after-year. So, if all those other coaches can make it there, I'd like to think our coach could to.
But I don't think that Ray would be better. I'm not saying that the evaluators from last year hit any home runs but I don't believe Ray would do much better.
I completely agree with you. Someone has said that Hudson is a keen evaluator of talent, why isn't he using this chance to run the rule over some potential draft picks? Argentina will still be playing soccer next week but for some of these teams and players they won't play again until the combine (is there a combine or other scouting function associated with the draft this year?).
I have to agree with Sandon Mibut on this one. Like another poster posted, Argentina will be playing soccer for the next few weeks. Bad Timing. DC United cannot afford to continue to have horrible drafts year after year.
In addition to the fact that Trask, Kasper, and others who are tasked with such things will be at many of those events, won't all or most of them be available on tape? Plus, you've got to figure we've got a pretty good handle on what's what in the collegiate ranks. It's not like these conference tournaments are their only games. I know our league isn't "big time" in the way that NFL, NBA, and MLB teams are, with sizable scouting departments, etc., but this isn't a one-man show either. Hudson couldn't and shouldn't try to be everywhere. Since it seems likely we'd want to do a Moreno deal (if we're going to do it) before the draft, and since we'd presumably only do it if we had a suitable replacement lined up, it sounds like now is a good time to be in Argentina. Let's see what they've got there, and consider the options he saw in Europe, consider the stuff (like possibly Dante Washington or Ante Razov or Josh Wolff) that might be available here, and then start pulling the trigger.
This time last year, the league, the front office and the coaching staff was in incredible flux. Can't compare it. I'd be more worried if they had to use this week to evaluate players, instead of being up to speed at this point. If Trask, Simpson, Kasper and anyone else they work with is doing the stuff in the US and Ray's overseas, that's fine with me.
We already HAVE a bunch of US youngsters on our team Who's to say we're not going to trade the 1st pick I agree w/ursula, atouck, shawn, rick, sundevil. Excellent points by all I won't go over again We are COMPLETELY RETOOLING OUR TEAM. We are not going to find MAXIMUM SALARY PLAYERS at the UNDER 20 YOUTH CHAMPIONSHIPS Hudson has ONE SEASON to turn things around or he won't BE around. Under 20 players are NOT going to make or break our team next year. We already tried the youth movement-under THOMAS RONGEN
Laying the lack of scouting by United last fall at the feet of Hudson and Kaspar is totally unfair. They weren't here. We also had a good draft. Kante has played better than practically anyone else in the draft, just not for us. Mapp is obviously a pick for the future. Finally Hudson is currently abroad scouting players who figure to have a much larger impact next year on DCU than mostly of those U-20 players will ever have in MLS. Only Convey, who's been in the league three years now, will have the impact of whomever Hudson signs.
Sandon, I disagree. Not b/c it isn't valuable to be at those tournaments. Let me offer my thoughts. 1. I think United has had a greater presence at college and youth ball than any other team this year. Why? First, we're one of the few teams with someone in the role that Kasper's in (TD). And we're geographically better situated to catch those teams than any other MLS side (which was a point Kasper made last year I believe). In otherwords, I think Kasper and Trask and Simpson and Hudson have already seen a lot of college and youth players. 2. I think you've got the timing off. Yes, many of these teams have their tournaments right now. From that perspective, that sounds crucial. But the reality is that the draft isn't until January, any P-40 players have to be worked out for the league, there will be a league combine. It's not the same. But there are other opportunities. Let me tell you what has to happen in less than 25 days. United has to make a final decision on Moreno. Trade him (and for whom or what). Or effectively cut him (tell MLS not to offer him an extension). B/c telling him to take a paycut helps the league but does United no good--it won't free up cap room for us (since it appears that he makes more than the league max--ala Etcheverry). So what does that timing with Moreno mean? It means that we need to find out (a) if we are comfortable with Dante Washington as a striker starting for us and if we can deal for him; and (b) what foreign options we have that we'd prefer. So far the primary ones discussed (La Paglia and Kucharski) are primarly aggressive attacking midfielders. We can scout all we want and get some nice reserves for this year that might turn into good players in 2-3 years. And blow the decision on Moreno (by resigning him if nothing is left in the tank, or quickly deciding to drop him for an SI that ends up making Henry Zambrano look like Maradona). These college tournaments are important. But the two biggest decisions DCU will make (not only for this coming season but the season to come) are what to do with Moreno and Etcheverry and if they go, who do we replace them with. And the clock's ticking on that decision. We have far more time to evaluate college talent.
sandon, owen, jose do make good points though. We do need to make sure we come up w/a great draft Good debate. At least we're not like the MetroPuke fans, who believe it or not are arguing over whether: George Steinbrenner = Nick Sakiewicz Joe Torre = Bob Bradley https://www.bigsoccer.com/forum/showthread.php?threadid=22320 Seriously, there may be a gem at the Youth Championships maybe Sandon's post will give the United brass a "heads up"
Dude, that's not what that thread is about-- it's about a Shep Messing column that made that point. But don't let facts stand in the way of calling people idiots, Mister Irony.
Except if we don't deal Moreno before the draft he'll be cut because of his salary, replacement or not lined up. I think that if the DCU braintrust, and based on past results I'm using that term loosely, had identified a few players that might be in the draft and draft worthy by DCU, it might make sense for Ray to take a look at the cream of the crop before heading to Argentina. Would it really hurt to delay his trip by a few days so he could catch a game or two this weekend? I'm not sure how many of these games will be available on tape, and watching the tape is very different than seeing a player live. Also I don't think Ray totally trusts the eyes of others. DC have probably done a decent job of keeping tabs on some college players, but it's nothing like seeing them live in a pressure situation like the conference tournament. The combine won't be a great place to evaluate players because it's very much a dog eat dog situation. Players play for themselves and try to be impressive on their own and rarely play with their teammates at these things because they are trying to standout. A lot of these guys don't understand what a coach is looking for.
My understanding is that the decision on Moreno isn't to be made before the draft, it's before the end of this month. My understanding (and I could be wrong) is that at the end of this month, United must tell MLS if they want Moreno's contract to be extended or not. If not, he's out of here, no compensation for his loss. If yes, he's on our cap for 2003 (unless of course they fail to come to an agreement). Part of what affects the decision on Moreno is if we can get a target forward. There are lots of fine talent in the draft on the frontline this year. But I think we can all agree that if Hudson is counting on a college rooke it come in and be our primary finisher, we'll be in for a very long season. I think our first option for finisher is likely Dante Washington. We're probably being offer Ante Razov (who's much less attractive to me--not as good of a target man as Dante, benefits from Nowak, Wolff, Stoichkov and Bradley's system, plus I believe he gets a lot more money than Dante Washington--though I could be wrong about that). So realistically, we have until the end of the month to decide about Moreno's status. And part of what affects that decision is whether or not we acquire a good target. And evidently our first option is domestic (b/c we didn't jump at Hwang and La Paglia and Kucharski are really midfielders who score a lot, not target men). Yes, scout amateur talent. But we did that last year and my understanding in the Superdraft was that United had Twellman, Mapp, and Kante in their sights. I see nothing wrong with that talent evaluation (whether it was Kasper's or Hudson's). At the time we drafted, Martino was seen as hopelessly redundant (Convey, Etcheverry and Lisi, even Moreno could play that role). I still think that 4 years from now, people will say we probably got the most talented player in the draft (Mapp) and the best outside midfielder or attacking talent. So iif there is criticism of scouting last year, it's that maybe we should have taken a better development player in the later rounds?
I think tapes will be enough to give information.The real selection begins when the coach will be able to see the players for a week in a tryout camp. In my opinion there are a lot of argentinian midfielders and forwards to be seen and evaluate.There is a real chance to have acces to the argentinian market. It would not be for long !!!
My name is Mr. Wiser This from your own moderator, jamison: "Anschutz is the Steinbrenner. Bradley maybe the Torre, but the problem is Nick is not the Gene Michael. He is also not the Brian Cashman. He is, apparently, the Sid Thrift." Geniuses at work...... No wonder you come by this board for some sanity Sorry for getting off topic. I agree w/sormun last post-tapes are good to decide whether to bring in for a tryout
Excellent discussion. Kudos to Sandon for starting this thread. As usual, I agree with Sandon, Skip, JoeW, etc. But this time I also agree with Sormun. IMHO, Sandon is dead-on. Scouting these guys is crucial, and it's the reason that the Chicago Fire plucked Kelly Gray out of the draft last season, who IMHO, was one of the best picks of the draft. I also was and am high on Justin Mapp, and was very happy to see United draft him. The international events are super-important, as they're more of a talent show against better competition. But the team tournaments show other things, like how an individual player can make other players better and how they perform when called on under pressure. Anyone we draft will be "the man" at his school, so they're responsible for attitude, team defending, creativity, etc. Along with those two pieces, the pre-draft camp is the crowning jewel. It showcases the picks against one another and shows who can contribute immediately. Hopefully all of United's talent evaluators (Kasper, Hudson, Trask, Simpson, Petrosian and Zak) will have either attended or seen tapes of all 3 of these indicators. In addition, hopefully they've seen most of these guys play live with their school's team. We need to interview them, not just watch tapes. We need to see who is an off-field leader, who is a follower, and who is reactionary. Last season Sandon identified this dilemma, and I agreed with him. This season we're also in agreement. IMHO, Trask is a bit biased. I will flip out if we draft Pat Noonan, whom I do not see as a worthwhile MLS player. Kasper seems to defer to Ray, so I'm not exactly sure what his role is. That means Hudson has to see these guys. There are better weeks to go to Argentina than this one. But on the flip side, Sormun is absolutely correct IMHO, because we have an excellent chance to find a great player there right now, and Hudson is clearly the man for the senior recruiting trips. The US's World Cup success coupled with the South American economic meltdown creates a window that we may not see again. This has to take priority. I'd feel a lot better if Ray made the youth tourneys, because while he'll get Rongen etc.'s input, he's not going to assess those guys as well by only seeing them at the pre-draft camp. I definitely do NOT want to trade the #1 pick, and don't think we should trade any pick until after the pre-draft camp. There are a lot of good young players, and if Diceson's rumor about the developmental rosters increasing by one or two, then we'll need a lot of P-40 guys. Next year we'll only have Mapp, and we'll have 4-6 spots, so that means we need more p-40 guys, and this is the year to get em. Ignore the Moreno and Etch issues. If Hudson gets the player he wants, he'll make room. As JoeW mentioned, the value we receive in return for them isn't vital, and it's not likely to be substatial. The cap room is the real compensation. As for Dante, yes, I'd like to see him in DC, he brings all of the positives of Conteh and Lassiter (fast, strong, good in the air, devout finisher) with none of the negatives (feet of stone, lack of combination play). But let's not fool ourselves, he's our #3 striker, not our #1 or #2. We can have Santino as our #2, but we still need a clear #1 striker, and if Dante inhibits our ability to do that, then we don't have room for him. I think we do though. I'm curious if Ray's going to get his Ben-Hur player, his hairy chested Bulgarian, his Ian Bishop two way midfielder. That's going to be a very difficult position to fill. Numan and Batty are too expensive. I was hoping we'd get Grimandi, but predictably we became dazzled by Ginola's flash and again chased a shooting star rather than welcome the type of player we actually need. With all of the economic problems in Brazil and Argentina these days, what about re-approaching Joares? BTW, make Sandon an All-Star already! -Tron
Tron, nice post, and thanks for the love. But, let's get 1 thing crystal clear: Neither Greg Petrosian nor Stephen Zack are in any way qualified to scout soccer players. Petrosian is a trainer, not much different than the guy you get 3 free sessions with when you join Gold's Gym. He is the team's strength and conditioning coach and his job is to get the players in top shape and keep them that way. His background is not in soccer but in track. Here's a link to his bio and it indicates he used to coach and participate in track, apparently at a pretty high level. http://www.speed-fitness.com/whoweare.htm As for Zack, unless he is evaluating a player to see how he can sell tickets, create a marketing plan or write a press release, he has no business scouting talent. Zack is a good marketer and has done a nice job in charge of the team this year but he is in no way a soccer guy. I mean, it's not a coincidence that when he was promoted to replace Payne, he didn't inherit the GM title. Before working for DC he worked in marketing and before that for advertising firms. Here's a link to his bio. http://www.dcunited.com/index.cfm?section=team&cont_id=110132 Hope that's clear. BTW, Pat Noonan can play!
Let's try to put all of this in perspective. United had a staff that (in terms of soccer expertise) was as big or bigger than any other team's this year. We carried 2 fulltime assistants plus a GK coach. We have a Technical Director. We didn't make the playoffs--when other teams were scouting each other and prepping for the US Open Cup elim rounds, we were home. And so was our staff. Except for talent scouting. Hudson and Rongen are close--very good buddies. And NE just got rid of all of the soccer-related staff except for Nicol. Their new Dir. of Soccer Operations (sort of like Kasper's job) was last working in a health club most recently. We're not behind the curve on domestic talent spotting. I think we're in better shape that just about any other team. I think it was Goff (could be wrong) in a chat last year who said something like the majority of MLS staff tend to scout only in the area their team is located (b/c they don't have the budgets for lots of travel). We've got a huge edge being surrounded by ACC schools. Let's look at some other teams. Chicago--anyone think that Sarachan has been focused on college and youth talent at all in 2002? Spawn of Satan--they've got Sakiewicz (who is a first class meddler) and have turned over their staff. I like and respect Bradley but he probably hasn't seen most of the East Coast college talent and has probably been more focused on evaluating his roster and deciding who stays and goes. Nicol--just got a new Director of Soccer operation who has been out of the sport recently (certainly not scouting college talent) and I think Nicol was busy with the Cup run.