What exactly failed Sean Johnson/Bill Hamid?

Discussion in 'USA Men: News & Analysis' started by LouisianaViking07/09, May 12, 2019.

  1. LouisianaViking07/09

    Aug 15, 2009


    It's a rather old video, but it speaks to the rivalry between the 2 and they're currently leading MLS in cleansheets.

    It got me thinking.

    Both started relatively young and were no.1's at their club at age 20/21.

    But what happened to them?

    Was it the failed 2012 Olympic cycle? Are they just solid in MLS and not beyond that? I feel that either is a capable no.3 going forward (with the likes of Gonzalez inheriting that by the next WC or slightly after). Should both have attempted to go abroad some years ago?

    Did JK rely too much on Rimando when he should have given the 2013 Gold Cup to either of the 2 to start? Should he have named either of the 2 to the 2014 squad? Did relying on a 34/35 year old Rimando hinder those a decade younger?
     
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  2. gunnerfan7

    gunnerfan7 Member+

    San Jose Earthquakes
    United States
    Jul 22, 2012
    Santa Cruz, California
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Just unfortunate victims of timing.

    They were never better than Howard/Guzan, so they were always 3rd options. And then, when Howard retired and you'd think they'd be heir apparents (I don't think Guzan has been anything other than a backup for the MNT for his whole career) Steffen and Horvath emerged, younger GK's with YNT and European pedigrees.

    Such is life.
     
  3. Susaeta

    Susaeta BigSoccer Supporter

    Apr 3, 2009
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    People fell in love with their athleticism. They were always mediocre goalkeepers.
     
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  4. LouisianaViking07/09

    Aug 15, 2009
    Mediocre by MLS standards or compared to Howard?

    JK should have thrown them some winter camps to get them noticed. I know Hamid had a lot of training with PL clubs. Does anyone know if he had interest from years ago? This is why I worry with young talent who spend too many years in the league. Maybe they hit their ceiling and never develop beyond that here; whereas abroad, perhaps they might.
     
  5. ifsteve

    ifsteve Member+

    Manchester United
    United States
    Jul 7, 2013
    MS and ID
    Club:
    Real Salt Lake
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I think the "it" factor is an important consideration in sports. But there are some positions where I think its critical. A QB in football and a keeper in soccer would be at the head of the list. I don't think Hamid or Johnson have "it." I think they are strong, athletic soccer players that happen to be keepers. But I think they have some technical flaws, and perhaps that could have been overcome with better training/coaches overseas? But I think at the end of the day they don't have "it." Don't ask me to define "it." If you don't understand what that is then I can't help you. But I will say go look at Tim Howard against Belgium in WC 2014. That was "it."
     
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  6. IndividualEleven

    Mar 16, 2006
    The flaws were plain to see, even during Olympic Qualifying.
     
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  7. Eleven Bravo

    Eleven Bravo Member+

    Atlanta United
    United States
    Jul 3, 2004
    SC
    Club:
    Atlanta Silverbacks
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    To me, Hamid has some maturity/mentality issues and Johnson has some mentality/technical issues. I worry about Horvath having mentality issues as well. He seems way too timid. And, I kind of worry about Steffen being overly timid as well. On the other hand, Hamid seems to pout when he’s down.

    Goalkeeper is the kind of position where you have to exert psychological dominance. Howard was a master of that. He made the backline feel safe. That’s why highlight reels are typically a terrible way to measure a goalkeeper other than just raw talent.
     
  8. bsky22

    bsky22 Member+

    Dec 8, 2003
    Stop this! Klinsmann called Hamid plenty of times. Hamid couldnt stay healthy. He played 90 mins vs Ireland after his best MLS season in 2014 and it didnt go well.

    Hamid is a very poor goalkeeper. He relies on his athleticism and his technique and deceision making let him down over and over. He got found out in Denmark and anyone who pays attention sees big issues in MLS. Nobody is to blame for his career than him. He chose to not improve and stay in an environment that didnt force him to improve.
     
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  9. An Unpaved Road

    An Unpaved Road Member+

    Mar 22, 2006
    Club:
    --other--
    I prefer Gonzalez for the number three but I'd be comfortable with Hamid there as well. Wouldn't call him a failure. Talent ebbs happen. Guzan had a PL league stay of nearly a decade but overall I think even he looked a level below his NT predecessors.
     
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  10. schrutebuck

    schrutebuck Member+

    Jul 26, 2007
    I think the premise of this thread is slightly mistaken. Sean Johnson is clearly in the US picture right now. He sort of revitalized his career when he went to New York, and playing for Vieira enabled him to demonstrate his technical ability.

    He could be anywhere from #2 to #4 in the U.S. pool. I don't think it's safe to assume that Horvath is ahead of him. The bigger question mark is whether Guzan is in Berhalter's picture.
     
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  11. soccersubjectively

    soccersubjectively BigSoccer Supporter

    Jan 17, 2012
    Dallas
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    There's a bit of a bubble when it comes to MLS fans gauging their talent. I think it's a rollover from the early 00s when we had some serious talent and we just assumed we still have it, while the market has really moved on elsewhere. If either were at a high enough level - like we've seen with other gks in the past - they would have had clubs knocking on the door. The one time one of them went to a higher level, it was pretty clear he wasn't able to keep up.

    Talk to any Chicago Fire fan and there was this loooong waiting sentiment that "SJ will put it together at some point." He never did and they sent him to Atlanta who said "no thanks, we have an aging Brad Guzan we're more interested in" and they sent SJ to NYC, where he's been fine but not great.

    Also I think there's a bit of struggle to use stats when it comes to goalkeeping. Tracking shutouts as a gauge for gk success is a bit of a red herring. Neither has really been tested this season and both teams are on the low end of shots faced/gm.

    Both are average gks at the end of the day. They have some really positive parts of their game but - like we saw with Hamid most recently - will drop the ball consistently enough to really negate any accolade they may think they deserve.

    Edit: Just want to add a point that NT crowdedness does not impact a gk's quality. Yes it can be frustrating to run into a log jam, but a player still develops and performs first and mainly on the club level. If Hamid/SJ were good enough, they would have knocked off those older gks earlier but they never did.
     
  12. Pegasus

    Pegasus Member+

    Apr 20, 1999
    Club:
    FC Dallas
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I've always thought Steffen has "it". I see "it" from Gonzalez at times but not consistently.
     
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  13. mattjo

    mattjo Member+

    Feb 3, 2001
    Club:
    DC United
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Hamid is a good MLS keeper (he makes good reaction saves and was a definite improvement from how DC United started last year), but lacks the ability to play with his feet that is a necessary for the NATs and was his bane when trying to play in Denmark. Watching him live, you can really see that. Injuries definitely hurt him at some points, but he never reached the level of his predecessors.

    I wouldn't say Johnson is out of competition with the NATs right now. He has good foot skills, which is required in Berhalter's system. I think that is one reason he started over Horvath, as that is one of Ethan's weaknesses he must work on. That said, Johnson seems to give up weak goals at times.

    As far as what went wrong.. I wouldn't necessarily say anything went wrong. It is just the age old warning of prejudging future success based on certain pedigrees, especially with a national team.
     
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  14. LouisianaViking07/09

    Aug 15, 2009
    Well, the focus is on what happened to a Young Sean Johnson/Hamid. Like what stunted their development 2011/12/13.

    I agree that he has drastically improved since his move to NY>
     
  15. LouisianaViking07/09

    Aug 15, 2009
    I haven't watched Hamid in Denmark, but it's clear that he chose the wrong team. He picked a team on a winning streak and the manager had no reason to play him and when he did, Hamid was too poor (after 2 months riding the bench). Then he had that horrible Ireland match. But he's proved he's one of the best in MLS. So, ultimately what does he say?

    Is he overrated or underrated?
     
  16. TheHoustonHoyaFan

    Oct 14, 2011
    Houston
    Club:
    FC Schalke 04
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    The 2012 Olympic Qualifying matches is what stunted their development.

    Hamid the starter, got hurt v El Salvador and instead of coming off the pitch stayed on even though he could not jump. He gave up a goal he should have saved because he could not push off.

    Johnson gave up the howler last second soft shot from distance that went through his legs and gave El Salvador the tie and knocked the US out of the Olympics!
     
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  17. LouisianaViking07/09

    Aug 15, 2009
    why didn't he come off?
     
  18. Susaeta

    Susaeta BigSoccer Supporter

    Apr 3, 2009
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Mediocre by any standard. Howard, at his best, was a Top 50 GK.

    For both, their biggest issues are in (1) positioning, and (2) technique. They are actually at their best when forced to make a split second reflex save, where they do not have time to think. Their athleticism can yield some highlight reel stuff.

    But the flaws in their fundamentals mean they are just as capable of awful gaffes.
     
  19. ifsteve

    ifsteve Member+

    Manchester United
    United States
    Jul 7, 2013
    MS and ID
    Club:
    Real Salt Lake
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I played against a keeper for years who would have a highlight reel save every couple of games. Was he a good keeper? Nope. He was quick and athletic but he was a terrible keeper. The reason he had some highlight reel saves was because his positioning and tactical awareness was so bad that he was out of position all the time and all that was left was his reactions. Well most of the time it didn't work and it ended up being a goal. But once in awhile he had what looked like a "holy shit did you see that save" ....Yeah well a good keeper would have made a simple easy save because they would have been in the right place in from the start.

    As an example. Almost every shot to either side of him he would flip horizontal to make the save. Looked acrobatic as hell. Me, I would just take a simple step one way or the other and catch the ball against my chest staying upright....lol.
     
  20. LouisianaViking07/09

    Aug 15, 2009
    Top 50 of all time?
     
  21. soccersubjectively

    soccersubjectively BigSoccer Supporter

    Jan 17, 2012
    Dallas
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Usually when a player leaves a team for another one it is because the latter is paying for them. Didn't happen with Hamid. Hamid has been in DC for nearly a decade and when the time came the best offer the market offered DC was $0. Yes, his contract was running out when he finally did leave, but there was ample time to move Hamid since joining them in 2009. So I think you're a little off base in saying Hamid "chose" the wrong team. All across the globe teams had their chance to pick him up for cheap and *they chose* not to bring him in. And Midtjylland treated him exactly what you'd expect them to treat a $0 prospect.

    Overrated or underrated... the world market is saying one while MLS accolades are saying another : /
     
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  22. GiallorossiYank

    GiallorossiYank Member+

    Jan 20, 2011
    NJ/Roma/Napoli
    Club:
    AS Roma
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    That was an absolute horror show.
     
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  23. bsky22

    bsky22 Member+

    Dec 8, 2003
    @LouisianaViking07/09 , this is the third thread where you are asking about Hamid. Many of us have pointed out the issues with him and provided examples and yet you are still trying to find someone to tell you he is good. If you want that, you should go to an MLS thread. Anybody who know anything about the position and is a fan of the national team doesnt want him anywhere near it.

    Again, it is basic fundamentals. If arent good at them, you cant be a good GK. His footwork, positioning, timing, and hands are all poor.
     
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  24. LouisianaViking07/09

    Aug 15, 2009
    I understand that. But clearly he's good enough to be among the top in MLS. I don't say he should be no.1 I simply say he's earned a right in the pool if nothing more than depth. Some of you seem to carry some harsh resentment toward him; maybe that's not the case. Steffen and Horvath are the no.1's going forward. It doesn't hurt keeping a suitable Johnson/Hamid to backup if worst came to it while the likes of Gonzalez/JK and whoever comes through.
     
  25. bsky22

    bsky22 Member+

    Dec 8, 2003
    He isnt one of the top Keepers in MLS. I didnt watch him closely when he had his best season 5 years ago, but would guess that people over valued his athletic saves. He has dropped out of the top 5 GKs in MLS. There is no reason to think he will improve since he hasnt already. I would move on to younger players or go with veterans who are strong on the basics. Ideally, I want a goalkeeper that doesnt lose us games and wins us one every now and again. The first part is more important to me and it doesnt decribe Hamid.
     

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